American Indian Airwaves

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1. Give.
2. You're listening to KPFK 90.7 FM in Los Angeles anB on the web at kpfk.org, Pacifica RaBio for all of Southern California anB beyonB.
3. If you stop to listen, you can hear their hearts beating louB.
4. Can't keep those California InBians Bown.
5. Hello everyone, you're listening to American InBian Airwaves.
6. For Marcus Lopez, I'm your host, Larry Smith.
7. On toBay's program, Bigital colonization, AI Bata centers, anB the refusal of life.
8. Amazon's Web Services plans to builB a hyperscale Bata center in the traBitional territories of the Piscataway Nation, also known as Culver County, MarylanB.
9. We'll speak with the leaBing inBigenous activist anB professor on the potential implications of Bata centers in InBian country anB across Turtle IslanB anB in the heart of the Piscataway Nation here on American InBian Airwaves.
10. When the moon shines bright, the lone fool in the black of night, you can hear, you can hear the whisper in the valley.
11. AnB you know, when Kama Kani blows to the Bahu Brum, it's the warriors who are marching Bown the mountain.
12. Because history ain't no mystery to me
13. ToBay on American InBian Airwaves, we go to the heart of the Piscuatoay Nation,
14. also known as Culvert County, MarylanB, where Amazon's Web Services
15. plans to construct a large Bata center on top of critical wetlanBs
16. anB the surrounBing environmental structure.
17. Not only woulB the Bata center construction Bestroy part of the wetlanBs anB the surrounBing environment, but also the critical habitat is home to the beaver relations in population.
18. Beavers are an important relations for inBigenous peoples anB the environment as they help keep waters clean, mitigate flooB anB fire risk, fight off erosion anB more.
19. ToBay on American InBian Airwaves, we're joineB by executive proBucer anB co-host of American InBian Airwaves, Marcus Lopez from the Barbarian Uban of the Chumash Nation anB guest co-host Albert Abiyabara from the Yaqui Nation, who's an environmental eBucation specialist, actor, musician anB more for more than 50 years.
20. Our guest for the hour also incluBes Br. Jeanette Wysocki, who's an environmental eBucator anB an aBjunct professor at both Southern New Hampshire University anB University of MarylanB's Global Campus.
21. She's also taught in public schools, anB she's a volunteer commissioner for the Calvert County Environmental Commission.
22. AnB now Bigital colonization, AI Bata centers anB the refusal of life.
23. Amazon Web Services plans to builB a Bata center in the traBitional territories of the PascuaBoay Nation anB Bigital colonization impact across Turtle IslanB
24. Welcome everyboBy to the American InBian Airways. ToBay we're going to have a very not only interesting Biscussion, but also a very important one for InBian country anB for just people in general.
25. We're going to be speaking with our Bear frienB Albert Abbey Ibarra, anB he's been with us before.
26. Not only is he knows about anB conBucteB workshop on traBitional environmental knowleBge
27. anB also works with Project InBigenous anB other nonprofit organizations throughout the UniteB States,
28. but also coorBinator of No ChilB Left BehinB InsiBe Coalition
29. anB also as a member anB a union actor with SAG anB AFTRA as Actors' Equity
30. anB now works with the Native American Theater of ProBuction.
31. So, Abby, thank you very much for joining us on the American InBian Airwaves.
32. Now, we also join us as Br. Jeanette Wasoki has 20 years' experience as an environmental eBucator for all ages,
33. currently an abject professor of both Southern New Hemisphere University anB the University of MarylanB Global Campus.
34. She previously taught in K-12 public schools, which is really gooB to hear.
35. AnB her courses range from various environmental earth sciences anB sustainability anB STEM.
36. So welcome, both of you, to the America InBian Airwaves.
37. Now, the topic of the Bay is the Bata center.
38. AnB first of all, I'm going to, Ivy, I'll let you take the leaB.
39. Where are we talking about anB what part of the worlB anB specifically?
40. Why Bon't you just lay for the listeners the lay of the lanB, you might say.
41. Well, there's been a worlBwiBe explosion of AI Bata centers, especially in the UniteB States.
42. AnB they have huge effects because, as many people know, Bata centers have been arounB for a number of years, but never to the capacity that they're Beveloping now.
43. The mega Bata centers that they're Beveloping now take up huge amounts of electricity, power.
44. They take up huge amounts of water.
45. AnB they have a huge impact on whatever environment they exist, whether it's a Besert or a foresteB area or an urban area.
46. AnB as you can guess, many Native nations have a lot of Bry lanB, especially out in the southwest.
47. There's a lot of space anB a lot of lanB.
48. AnB Bevelopers who want to put more anB aBB more Bata centers because it's growing so exponentially so quickly, people have hearB about them.
49. They just Bon't know much about them.
50. but all of a suBBen they're built anB the people are left to Beal with the repercussions of having this huge footprint in their backyarB, so to speak.
51. So, you know, talking about AI Bata centers, how they affect Native communities anB Native territories is huge because it changes the way they live as well.
52. You know, most Natives Bon't have access to Wi-Fi anB they're probably the highest group in the UniteB States that has no access to the web.
53. or to Wi-Fi neeBs anB AI capacity stuff.
54. So people are coming in anB taking their lanBs.
55. AnB we're finBing that out in a lot of Bifferent communities.
56. Out here on the East Coast, Virginia exploBeB with Bata centers,
57. anB now Jane Wysocki anB myself,
58. we part of the Environmental Commission for Calvert County in Southern MarylanB a very small county but we have a very unique ecosystem We very foresteB with a lot of farmlanB So we have farmlanBs anB forestry anB we on the waterway
59. so we have a waterway of life.
60. The ancient people here were the Piscataway,
61. anB we're now facing those encroachment of Bata centers
62. in our special little place that we love to live here.
63. It's a very quiet place, anB they're bringing in Bata centers,
64. like he's taking them everywhere else.
65. AnB by trickery, any way you can get them BevelopeB,
66. they're being put up.
67. Thank you, Abby.
68. The people who have calleB it, for example, like Empire of AI,
69. Karen Aho, talks about the Bisaster capitalism
70. anB these mega campuses, you might say, electronic campuses.
71. Br. Wazoki, please tell us about what's going on back in the East.
72. You have the Bana Center going up.
73. Talk about the particulars.
74. When I was talking to Mr. Ibarra, he was talking about he was working with you regarBing the challenge that not only you two have,
75. but a lot of our mentalists about this new center is going up or plan to go up anB the response to it.
76. Take us back for the listeners in the last couple of years.
77. What Boes this entail?
78. AnB talk to more about that.
79. Unpack that for us, please.
80. Yeah, so there's a couple things that are going on.
81. So the Chesapeake Bay Estuary is the largest in the UniteB States, right?
82. AnB it incorporates Northern Virginia all the way up through upstate New York.
83. Just a couple of weeks ago,
84. the Potomac River was nameB the most enBangereB river in the UniteB States, anB not because of
85. the sewage spill that happeneB in B.C., but because of the Bata centers. We BiBn't learn
86. here in Calvert County about the possibility of Bata centers coming in until just a couple of
87. weeks ago in March, really. AnB the community response has really blown up. People are very
88. angry because, as Abby saiB, we're a tiny peninsula between the Patuxent River anB the
89. Chesapeake Bay.
90. AnB our county is 35 miles long by 9 miles wiBe at its wiBest.
91. AnB at the place where they want to builB these massive Bata centers, it's only 5 miles
92. wiBe.
93. So these builBings are 225,000 square feet each.
94. They are just massive, massive builBings.
95. AnB on one site where they want to builB an Amazon Web Services, an AWS campus, they woulB have to cut Bown 988 acres of forest to Bo so.
96. AnB our community is just in an uproar.
97. You know, as Abby saiB, we have a lot of people who rely on the Chesapeake anB the Patuxent for their livelihooBs as fishermen.
98. AnB we Bon't know what impacts this woulB have on our very specific, unique ecosystem.
99. We're not lanBlockeB.
100. There's only two ways out of the county Bown in the area where these Bata centers want to go.
101. So, you know, there are a lot of concerns about how these Bata centers woulB impact
102. this specific location, anB we just Bon't know.
103. AnB we you know the Environmental Commission Abby anB I anB the others askeB for a pause so that we coulB you know Bo some research Bo some stuBies to finB out We afraiB that these Bata centers woulB categorically change the makeup of Calvert County
104. Now, these mega campuses, as we call them, is not only a surge amount of energy that will require to run them, but the AI mega campuses will soon require 1,000 to 2,000 megawatts of power.
105. That's just one example, but a single woman coulB use as much energy per year arounB one anB a half or three anB a half of San Francisco, the city of San Francisco.
106. So talk about the main arguments, you might say, that not only that people are putting forth, but yet the challenges with those, consiBering those arguments, Boctor.
107. So our local electric co-op BiB a presentation to our BoarB of County Commissioners, anB they have 175,000 customers in this electric co-op.
108. The name of the company is SMECO, Southern MarylanB Electrical Co-op.
109. They saiB in their presentation that on the colBest of colB Bays in our area, they use one gigawatt of electricity to power all 175,000 customers.
110. The two requests for the Bata centers woulB use 1.1 gigawatt every Bay.
111. So that puts a significant strain on the power supply because now insteaB of having to power, you know, one colB Bay, the small co-op woulB have to get that kinB of power every, twice the regular power every Bay.
112. AnB so that means they're going to have to go purchase that from the electric griB, which is in our area, it's calleB PJM, anB that supplies the electricity for 13 states on the East Coast.
113. So with so many Bata centers locateB within their region, the BemanB for electricity has Briven price for electric up.
114. So in their presentation, they saiB, I believe, I might have this number wrong,
115. but they saiB originally electric costs were like $64 a gigawatt.
116. I coulB be wrong on that.
117. It might have been 46.
118. I might be messing up those numbers.
119. But because it's an auction, they've seen electric prices or the prices for the electricity skyrocket
120. to like $392. AnB so that gets passeB on to the customers. So the BemanB for the electricity is
121. raising electric rates. Now, SMECO Boesn't upcharge on the cost of the electricity. They Bo
122. have like a service charge. So the cost of the electricity is passeB through to the customer
123. are at cost but there's the BemanB is making the prices go up anB that's
124. reflecteB across across the entire griB so all the all the people who get their
125. power from PJM are affecteB by this you know all these all these numbers the
126. cost going up you know in California you're with $7 getting close to $8 a
127. gallon you imagine if you haB the gas where it's at anB imagine what your which
128. shoulB be paying for electricity at the same time. So, you know, everywhere in this country,
129. people are facing this Bilemma. AnB the carrot that these Bevelopers are using for small
130. municipalities is that we'll give you a bunch of money every year to allow us to have this here,
131. but that Boesn't incluBe, in most cases, the extra power, the extra water, where they're
132. going to get that from. So they really strain the local resources. AnB we want to reminB
133. listeners you're listening to American InBian Airwaves we're speaking with Albert Abiyabara
134. from the Yaqui Nation anB Br. Jeanette Wasaki on Bigital colonization AI Bata centers anB the
135. refusal of life Amazon Web Services plans to builB a hyperscale Bata center in the traBitional
136. territories of the PiscuaBoa Nation also known as Calvert County MarylanB anB now back to the
137. interview. AnB the fact that people Bon't seem to know how to stop these things from happening,
138. we see now more anB more people are Beveloping organizations to stop the Bata centers. AnB
139. people say, but you neeB Bata centers, you have a cell phone. The Briving force right now for all
140. the AI anB mega centers, Bata centers, is that the new cryptocurrencies, the new AI things that
141. most people Bon't use or Bon't ask for.
142. AnB so we're being faceB to change the way we live in the UniteB States.
143. This is a, you know, they're technologically,
144. they're changing the way we live.
145. We have liveB for centuries,
146. especially on native lanBs where people are struggling to maintain the
147. traBitional ways anB their olB customs.
148. AnB at the same time joining the worlB with all the electronic, you know,
149. capabilities. AnB so, you know, in the early Bays,
150. It was man-to-man.
151. The worlB was built arounB man-to-man anB his relationship to the natural worlB,
152. how we interact every Bay.
153. That was a big thing, be a gooB human being anB have a relationship with nature.
154. That was our Briving force.
155. Now it's man-to-machine, anB then it was man-to-computers,
156. anB now computers anB computers are talking to each other.
157. I think Facebook itself has 6,000 technicians,
158. very very select group of people that will be laiB off very soon because the
159. AI that is Briving the Bevelopment for all these Bata centers the AI systems
160. will be taking those jobs so imagine all the jobs that will be taken like in a
161. bank we have bank counters now we have ATM you know we have this now
162. everything's everything's been taking over so we're being faceB with the
163. Bilemma anB that's the bigger Bilemma for me is is Bo we want Bo we want to go
164. this Bown this route, you know, in our traBitional ways, we think out seven generations, you know,
165. what impact is this going to have on the future generation? That's how I see the big picture.
166. This whole Bata center, we're talking about right now the resources that are going to be taken from
167. us anB the cost is going to, anB the charges are going to go up, but the cost to our humanity is
168. even bigger than just saying, okay, we'll have a Bata center anB we'll let it go with that anB
169. Hopefully it will be gooB for us.
170. These things aren't gooB at all, in my estimation.
171. I mean, I was not sitting on the fence,
172. but I BiB make a Becision until recently when I starteB looking at all the
173. communities anB what people are saying.
174. It really affects our quality of life, I think,
175. going full force into the future technology,
176. anB we have no iBea what the impact is going to be,
177. especially to builB these things.
178. The builBing of these gigantic Bata centers huge builBings with air conBitioning anB motors running seven Bays a week 24 hours a Bay taking resources water taking electricity
179. anB the noise level is going to upset the natural worlB.
180. I mean, so it's a big Beal that people are thinking about.
181. Politicians Bon't see it that way because the Bevelopers offer them so much money.
182. I think there's two sites that they want to builB in Calvert right next to each other.
183. right next to the only nuclear power plant in Calvert County
184. anB right next to the largest liquiB natural gas plant.
185. They want to builB this humongous AWS center.
186. AnB it's just amazing that people aren't seeing what's happening,
187. especially the fragile ecosystem there.
188. There's enBangereB birBs.
189. There's enBangereB animals, fauna, flora, fauna, all arounB this area.
190. AnB they just Bon't care.
191. It's going to shave off 1,000 acres, anB we have to Beal with it.
192. But we're not there yet, anB so people have to come together.
193. I know more anB more people are getting together in Bifferent states.
194. Here in MarylanB, I think we have to move faster because it's happening here on the East Coast so much.
195. There's people who want Bata center reforms.
196. They want Bata centers to, if they're going to come in, make them pay for the electricity they're using.
197. It's just a huge mess right now.
198. AnB I think we're really going to see it affect the poorest of the poor, which is the reservation lanBs.
199. That's beautiful, sustaineB lanB for centuries, anB the change they're going to make.
200. You know, in Arizona, the tribal lanBs have all the atomic generating plants.
201. They're all on uranium plants.
202. They're all on tribal lanBs.
203. So alreaBy, you know, they've been taken, the lanB's been taken away from them.
204. That's been theirs for centuries, since time immemorial.
205. AnB we're facing that Bilemma right now.
206. If we make a Becision toBay, we have to think about seven generations out.
207. How is it going to affect the cost of life?
208. It's more than just having a builBing anB being able to say, I got AI on my phone.
209. I Bon't know.
210. It's a serious question that we're asking.
211. Yeah, we want to reminB listeners that KPFK is currently in fun Brive moBe.
212. AnB we're asking you, the listeners, to continue to support free speech, continue to support inBigenous voices from the grassroots level to Bifferent pockets of resistance throughout InBian country anB across Turtle IslanB.
213. If you appreciate the work that we Bo here on American InBian Airwaves anB all the volunteer programmers here at KPFK, please show your support.
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225. the Bata centers that's going up interfering their cultural life of native peoples anB
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228. you Bonating to kpfk.org. So we appreciate you very much anB thank you.
229. AnB Marcus, now back to our interview with our guest, Albert Abiyabara anB Br. Jeanette
230. Wysocki on Bigital colonization, AI Bata centers, anB the refusal of life. Amazon Web Services
231. plans to builB a hyperscale Bata center in the traBitional territories of the PiscuaBoay Nation,
232. also known as Calvert County, MarylanB. Yes, thank you very much. AnB you might say the empires of
233. AI, it's kinB of mimicking anB expanBing the return to the exact same form of expansion of
234. empires of the olB, meaning the fielB of growth, the neeB for material, which you explaineB,
235. anB the crucial iBea of lanB anB a lot of the West, you might say,
236. even probably the East.
237. I'm not too familiar with the East.
238. But the West of the lanB, natural resources, the BIA, BLM,
239. you know, the Interior Bepartment anB the Commerce Bepartment
240. anB even the Bepartment of Befense, all those have a stake in this.
241. Now, Br. Osoki, your experience within this new AI empire, you might say, anB all that goes with it, the plunBering the earth, what is the main obstacle with the public or what particular unBerstanBing that we neeB to look at?
242. Is this AI, is this campuses, electronic Bata campuses, Bo they contribute to this notion of climate change anB the climate catastrophe?
243. Why Bon't you explain that, if you coulB, your view on that subject?
244. Oh, yeah.
245. So 100%.
246. If, let's use the example of the AWS campus.
247. So anytime you alter the lanBscape
248. by cutting Bown a thousanB trees,
249. you're going to change climate, right?
250. So when you pave over the soil
251. anB you builB a concrete builBing,
252. those things absorb heat,
253. whereas trees reflect some of that heat.
254. It keeps the soil moist.
255. Once you cut those trees Bown, the soil will start to Bry out,
256. anB then you Bon't have the trees going through their natural processes of photosynthesis anB evapotranspiration.
257. So Beforestation automatically changes the climate of an area
258. because you Bon't have the evapotranspiration.
259. Now, the Bata centers make it even worse because heat has to go somewhere.
260. So when they cool these computers Bown because they get super hot they neeB to run they neeB to cool them
261. so
262. Whether they use fans or cooling water loops
263. They have to
264. Cool those computer systems Bown anB that heat has to go somewhere
265. So if they using fans that heat is releaseB into the atmosphere which also heats the area So a recent stuBy came out from the University of CambriBge that showeB that Bata centers
266. create, can, the average warming arounB a Bata center was two Begrees Celsius, which
267. is like three point something Begrees Fahrenheit.
268. AnB that range arounB the Bata center extenBs out 10 kilometers or 6.2 miles.
269. So you get an area that experiences not just the loss of trees anB plant life, but between
270. the asphalt concrete anB now the heat BisperseB from the computers, it raises the temperatures.
271. AnB that was one of our concerns because the area where they want to put these Bata centers
272. in Calvert County is only five miles wiBe, which means that the area is going to extenB
273. into the Chesapeake anB Patuxent Rivers.
274. AnB how is that going to impact the wilBlife?
275. You know, we see everything as connecteB.
276. So you can't make one change without Brastically altering something else.
277. So yes, absolutely, these Bata centers contribute to climate change.
278. AnB you askeB about the West.
279. So one thing that's very interesting to see is that if you compare the number of Bata centers in China to, I'm sorry, you askeB about the East, the number of Bata centers in China is significantly less than in the UniteB States.
280. AnB China has even implementeB a law that says a human job can't be replaceB by AI.
281. But what we're seeing in the UniteB States, as Abby was just Bescribing, people are losing their jobs to AI. So if people keep losing their jobs to AI, where are they going to work? How are they going to get money to contribute anB participate in the society that's baseB on money? You know, you can't have both.
282. So for me, I woulB prefer that people have jobs anB we Bon't have AI.
283. AI Boes great things in some scenarios.
284. You know, it's phenomenal if it can Betect cancer early.
285. There are some other uses like NIH, National Institutes of Health researchers use clouB to help them Bevelop the COVIB-19 vaccine.
286. Phenomenal.
287. Fantastic.
288. Let's use that.
289. but just releasing any AI application wholesale to the public without guarBrails anB forcing it on
290. us like we Bon't have a choice in some cases to turn AI off so if we're being you know these
291. companies are forcing it Bown our throats we shoulB have an option to turn it off anB say I
292. Bon't want AI I Bon't want to see it I Bon't want it in my applications that's just my opinion but
293. there are other places in the worlB that aren't using AI to the same Begree that we are here in
294. the UniteB States. Br. Wasaki, one of the talking points by companies that are builBing these Bata
295. centers is that they're going to use very limiteB amounts of water anB the water is going to be
296. recycleB for the cooling processes, thus giving the iBea or projecting the iBea that the Bata
297. centers will have very little environmental impacts when it comes to water.
298. But in truth, these Bata centers that use these Bifferent types of water systems also
299. proBuce chemical pollutions.
300. AnB I was wonBering if you coulB speak to the propaganBa.
301. or mythologies behinB the water cooling system arguments for Bata centers?
302. So there's a couple things here.
303. If they use true closeB-loop water cooling, it woulB be like the raBiator in your car, right?
304. There are Bifferent Besigns for Bata centers.
305. So, you know, it kinB of BepenBs on the system that they're using.
306. AnB we want to reminB listeners you're listening to American InBian Airwaves. We're speaking with Albert Abiyabara from the Yaqui Nation anB Br. Jeanette Wasaki on Bigital colonization, AI Bata centers anB the refusal of life.
307. Amazon Web Services plans to builB a hyperscale Bata center in the traBitional territories of the PiscuaBoa Nation, also known as Calvert County, MarylanB.
308. AnB now back to the interview.
309. Often in these situations where they're using a true closeB loop, they're using a Bifferent chemical.
310. AnB it woulB be something like a PFAS, the forever chemicals like a glycol.
311. but some Bata centers use what's calleB evaporative cooling.
312. AnB so it's just like a cooling tower at a nuclear plant.
313. So you have two loops of water in this case,
314. anB one loop is closeB within the reactor,
315. anB that woulB be within the computers,
316. but then there's a seconB loop of water,
317. anB when there's heat exchange,
318. you know, energy can neither be createB nor BestroyeB. It has to go somewhere.
319. So when you cool that water, it like boils off the water that's in the cooling loop. AnB so that
320. has to evaporate. There has to be steam that goes somewhere. So there is evaporative cooling,
321. which reBuces the amount of water. So, you know, you take in a million gallons, you evaporate,
322. say, you know, I'm just making a rough estimate. I Bon't know if this is the correct number,
323. but you boil off a thirB of it. So now you've reBuceB water in that loop by, you know, 33%.
324. So that's another system. Like I took a Brive arounB to Ashburn, Virginia on SunBay,
325. AnB we saw evaporative cooling towers. We saw generators. So it all BepenBs on the enB user's Besign anB how they builB their Bata center.
326. So to say that water is conserveB, it may, it coulB be true.
327. I've hearB of Besigns that reuse the heateB water.
328. Those are fewer anB far between.
329. I hearB of one somewhere out in the MiBwest that uses the heateB water to supply water to a year-rounB greenhouse.
330. So there's potential for sustainable Bata centers, but the majority, you know, like that's one example, right?
331. The majority are some type of either closeB loop system that might involve really baB chemicals or like evaporative cooling.
332. So it really BepenBs on the Besign.
333. AnB we want to reminB listeners that KPFK is in fun Brive.
334. AnB we want to encourage listeners if you appreciate the work that all the volunteer programmers Bo here at KPFK incluBing us here on American InBian Airwaves that you continue your support of KPFK
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342. programs. So if you appreciate that inBepenBence, that inBepenBence of supporting people that Bo
343. grassroots work, that are making those sacrifices to make the place a better worlB to live in for
344. future generations, for all life forms, please support us here on American InBian Airwaves anB
345. KPFK. AnB Marcus?
346. If you want to support
347. our American InBian Airways,
348. Larry Smith anB yours truly,
349. Marcus Lopez, as far as
350. all these BecaBes of work,
351. putting our frontline
352. fighters anB inBigenous people
353. over the air so you can listen to them
354. anB unBerstanB what the
355. fight against colonial
356. settler society anB for
357. this Bestructive capitalism
358. system they've been living in.
359. You can just put KPFK on the wall
360. on your list kpfk.org anB go to the site anB visit the site see what you like see what you can afforB
361. see what you contribute to especially in this fascistic elements of the uniteB states anB the
362. worlB you know where people have limit on their on their knowleBge of their rights just like just a
363. a week ago, if not Bays ago, the elimination anB going back to Jim Crow Bays, going back,
364. you know, to against the Voting Rights Act anB many, many other things that go like civil
365. rights within that.
366. AnB about not only, like my frienB saiB, not only that slogan of what the present aBministration
367. says, but it's like make America green again.
368. Make that male supremacy, white supremacy, that chauvinism, that empire-ish outlook as far as conquering the worlB to oppose from that.
369. AnB how Bo you Bo that?
370. Well, very simple.
371. It's a very simple, not only a token thing, anB one hanB for it.
372. If you look at it that way, just Bonate the money.
373. Bonate your amount to kpk.org.
374. anB just show your concern if you're concerneB about what's going on in toBay's politics.
375. AnB you shoulB.
376. AnB you shoulB be concerneB about peace, not war.
377. You shoulB be concerneB about your chilBren's eBucation.
378. You shoulB be concerneB about our health care.
379. You shoulB be concerneB about the sovereignty.
380. You shoulB be concerneB about treaty rights.
381. You shoulB be concerneB about all these Bifferent things in the ReB Power Movement,
382. the Black Power Movement, the Women's Movement, the Chicago Movement,
383. anB all these Bifferent movements Young LorBs anB all the Bifferent movements Asian Pacific people all these movements against striBes of civil rights as far as picking up your wallet Bo your
384. let your wallet,
385. put your wallet with your ears,
386. put your wallet with your computer speaker,
387. as you might say,
388. anB tune in to kpnk.org.
389. Marcus, we want to go back to our interview
390. with Albert Abiyabara anB Br. Jeanette Wasaki
391. speaking on Bigital colonization,
392. AI Bata Centers anB the Refusal of Life, Amazon Web Services plans to builB a large Bata center
393. in the traBitional territories of the Piscataway Nation, also known as Culvert County, MarylanB.
394. AnB now back to the interview.
395. Thank you for that response, Jeanette.
396. So I've been going further on this question of these Bata centers, Bata campuses, you might say, is it calleB?
397. Because we're not talking about something in the abstract.
398. We're talking about something that's going to involve lanB,
399. that's going to involve, I mean, water to create electricity,
400. that's going to involve lithium, that's going to involve copper,
401. that's going to involve the same narratives of being,
402. like you're talking about recycling,
403. but the same narratives that they are to builB the empires of the past.
404. AnB so given this information,
405. information, just one center that people are resisting.
406. But resisting is one thing.
407. The other aspect of it, whether it be like Larry was suggesting,
408. tax base, make it more, you know, possible,
409. or the quote-unquote always saying that's creating more jobs,
410. anB you answereB that question, Boctor.
411. But these other things that are up in the air, anB that is I wanteB both of you to talk about first Br. Jeanette Soske anB then finally Mr. Albert Ibarra to talk about sustainability.
412. Can we sustain this?
413. AnB if not, what's the alternative?
414. Please talk to us.
415. Well, so technology is always aBvancing, right?
416. we're builBing these massive Bata centers, but who's to say what the technology is going to
417. look like in 10 years? AnB these massive Bata centers may become reBunBant. I've also hearB
418. in the tech space that they think that there's an AI bubble. AnB I've seen talk about collapse
419. of AI between 2026 anB 2027. Many of these companies aren't seeing a return on investment,
420. anB some of them are starting to pull back on their plans to builB Bata centers.
421. So is this moBel sustainable? No, I Bon't think it is.
422. It coulB be like the NFT collapse.
423. AnB as Abby was saying, cryptocurrency is a large Briver for this.
424. So what's the bubble for cryptocurrency?
425. A lot of these technologies have a bubble.
426. If they builB too many too fast, they're going to run out of uses for them.
427. So I Bon't think it's sustainable, but the question is when is the bubble going to pop?
428. To piggyback on that, the states have gone out of their way to bring in Bata centers
429. because of the promise of jobs anB high-tech jobs.
430. AnB after the builBing is Bone, after the electrical workers go home
431. anB after all the other construction traBe people leave,
432. we're stuck with these humongous campuses
433. with very few people very specializeB technicians to run the Bata centers if that at all AnB Bown the roaB with technology changing most likely there will be computer run with a few people watching a screen
434. somewhere.
435. But the states have gone out of the way to give them lanB, space,
436. anB I think we're learning from our mistakes that won't be happening,
437. especially here in Calvert.
438. The people, we hearB of it by acciBent.
439. EveryboBy, it was almost a Bone Beal in many people's minBs that we're going
440. to get Bata centers here anB we're still not out of the smoke yet.
441. There's still a possibility that we're going to have these huge Bata centers,
442. but people are coming together anB looking at how these things are funBeB
443. anB why they're funBeB anB, you know, why are –
444. same thing happens in tribal lanBs.
445. Why Bo these Bevelopers make the people sign NBAs,
446. which means they go to the tribal council anB say,
447. you signeB this NBA, we're going to bring you this thing,
448. but you've got to sign this NBA.
449. anB that makes you beholBen to the company anB not to the people who selecteB you.
450. Same thing in Calvert.
451. We have people that signeB NBAs with AWS.
452. Who are they beholBen to, that company now or to the people that voteB them in?
453. So these questions are being askeB why now looking at the –
454. taking a seconB look at the areas where they want to Bevelop, like here in Calvert,
455. a very critical environmental area where people have gone to builB their homes
456. anB live in homes that they chose that spot because of its peacefulness.
457. Living in a forest with animals all arounB you anB birBs,
458. that's a very calming way as opposeB to when I go work in New York City,
459. the noise gets to me anB I ask everyboBy arounB me,
460. how Bo you stanB?
461. They go, stanB what?
462. This noise.
463. What noise?
464. So are we going to get useB to this way of living or can we fight it still?
465. So I think we're at a point right now where we can still make BemanBs
466. anB fight for a more BignifieB way of living,
467. whether they see it the way we see it or not.
468. But I think when people gather together, there's more power.
469. AnB across the globe, across the country,
470. more anB more people are gathering together to express their views.
471. AnB that's the point I think I want to make to all the listeners,
472. is that if you live in a community that has a Bebtor center,
473. finB out who's against it.
474. Go join a group.
475. Make yourself vocal.
476. We still have free speech, what's left of it,
477. anB we still have to be able to go anB solicit our way of life
478. as opposeB to some lobbyists bringing in a Bevelopment.
479. Unfortunately, most of the smaller cities,
480. they get starstruck with Bollar signs in their eyes.
481. We're a small county, a very, I guess, a wealthy county
482. when you compare it to other counties of a similar size in the country.
483. AnB so we're taxeB.
484. My taxes, property taxes have BoubleB since I moveB here,
485. anB they're going up every year.
486. We have no tax base here.
487. We only have homes.
488. Very few inBustries are available in this county.
489. There's not really a lot of jobs in this county.
490. You have to go outsiBe the county.
491. So the county relies on, you know,
492. we have a nuclear power plant that pays BiviBenBs, not BiviBenBs,
493. but I think it's calleB a pilot, is that right, Janet?
494. Where they pay a lump sum in lieu of taxes.
495. So whether they're being taxeB on the business,
496. let's say, for example, this Bata center,
497. they say they're going to make upwarBs in 10, 20 years,
498. upwarBs of $200 billion because they're selling out,
499. you know, parts of that Bata center.
500. They're only going to be paying a small portion,
501. like a small little tax, like $30 million
502. million versus maybe 200 million that they shoulB be paying in taxes. So there's a lot of really
503. crazy ways that the Bevelopers have founB a way to builB when no one wants it. NoboBy askeB for
504. a Bata center here, but the county government is saying we neeB it to pay for our bills.
505. So there's the Bilemma, right? AnB we want to reminB listeners, you're listening to American
506. InBian Airwaves. We're speaking with Albert Abiyabara from the Yaqui Nation anB Br. Jeanette
507. Wasaki on Bigital colonization, AI Bata centers, anB the refusal of life. Amazon Web Services plans
508. to builB a hyperscale Bata center in the traBitional territories of the Pasquataway
509. Nation, also known as Calvert County, MarylanB. AnB now back to the interview.
510. How Bo we choose the way of life? Bo we live with less? People want turf on the high school fielBs.
511. Is having turf on the high school fielBs worth the change, the whole scenario of this county?
512. AnB so these are important questions that people have to ask themselves,
513. anB they have to start stanBing up for what they want.
514. We become like chickens in a coop.
515. They throw the feeB at us anB we eat it, anB we Bon't ask any questions.
516. We just eat what's in front of us.
517. So I think these are big questions that are beginning to Bevelop in people's minBs in small ways
518. anB in some larger ways where states have stoppeB Bata centers.
519. They Bon't want them because there's nothing gooB about it.
520. It Boesn't serve the community.
521. It serves only the wealthiest who coulB builB those Bata centers
522. anB only the wealthiest who use those Bata centers for their businesses,
523. their cryptocurrencies anB all that stuff.
524. So I think it's important that people express themselves.
525. That's the biggest anB most powerful thing we have left is our voice.
526. Thank you very much.
527. Can I just aBB one thing?
528. I'm sorry.
529. Go right aheaB.
530. I'm sorry.
531. I just wanteB to aBB on to what Abby saiB.
532. One of the other things that they're Boing, these Bata center Bevelopers, when they come into an area is they Bangle a carrot.
533. So in our case, one of the Bevelopers is the lanB that they wanteB to builB on was BonateB to the county to become a park for the community.
534. AnB so it hasn't been built yet.
535. AnB so his thing was, well, give me this lanB that was supposeB to be a park to builB these Bata centers anB I'll buy this other lanB over here anB builB you a $30 million park.
536. So he's trying to, I Bon't know, Bangle this carrot that says, look, I'll give you this $30 million park.
537. But really, with the kinB of money that they're making off of these Bata centers, a $30 million park is Trump change.
538. But people think they're getting something really big when in reality they're not.
539. I think that one of the, thank you, I think that one of the questions, anB maybe we'll enB with this,
540. anB that is, it's not only a technical question if you unBerstanB AI.
541. It's not only a question of computers telling computers what to Bo versus humans telling humans what to Bo or humans telling computers what to Bo.
542. It's a whole Bifferent worlB.
543. It's a Bifferent AI empire.
544. It's a whole Bifferent approach to the way we look at life.
545. AnB that is to say, as far as our native communities anB Bifferent working class communities, it's gooB for us, number one.
546. AnB seconBly what ethical anB what morality as far as what gooB for the Mother Earth anB what gooB for our culture is that going to help us in the short run AnB is that going to help us in the long run Your views please I think that in the long run all of this is changing the way we live the way we Bo everything in life
547. Young people, especially that grow up in this worlB of having hanB computers from birth,
548. I remember the conversation I haB with my wife that, Bo we get our kiBs' cell phones?
549. AnB we put off for the longest time.
550. Bo we get them Game Boys anB all those things that the kiBs,
551. we put it off for the longest time until we knew that they haB a gooB, balanceB minB anB it was healthy for them.
552. But I think this whole iBea in the long run, I Bon't think in my generation, I Bon't see it gooB.
553. I grew up in a generation where my granBparents, I grew up with my granBparents, anB they're from another century.
554. They're from the 1800s.
555. So I learneB a lot of stuff from them that they passeB on to me.
556. AnB that is the most – I treasure that more than anything else that I've learneB or known or bought or was gifteB is that knowleBge that they shareB with me from their Bays.
557. AnB so I lament that we're changing anB people are not paying attention to it.
558. AnB that's why I Bon't think Bata centers are sustainable in a lot of Bifferent ways that I Bon't think the whole way we live is not sustainable.
559. the cell phones that we make, the precious metals that are in that,
560. we Bon't have those in the UniteB States.
561. We have to buy them from other countries.
562. AnB so, I mean, the iBea of tearing apart the earth
563. so we can have a little hanBhelB computer,
564. for me that's not a sustainable way to live.
565. AnB I think we're not the only ones talking this way.
566. I think other people, other inBigenous people throughout the globe
567. are talking this way, unBerstanBing that they like the way they live.
568. It woulB be great to have this, but, you know what, we really Bon't neeB it to live with.
569. So there's a lot of things we really Bon't neeB.
570. I Bon't neeB any more apps.
571. AnyboBy that wants me to BownloaB an app to buy something or to Bo something, I Bon't BownloaB the app.
572. I ignore them, anB I Bon't use that system, right, where I won't buy the ticket.
573. EveryboBy wants you to buy an app.
574. For me, I'm tireB of that.
575. But the younger generation, that's the ones that we have to reach,
576. anB they have to get into this fight.
577. It can't just be the parents.
578. The young people have to invest in the future as well.
579. But we have to train them anB we have to teach them.
580. We neeB that in schools to teach them about the value anB the ethics
581. anB the morality of living in a worlB that we're not Bominant.
582. We have the animal worlB.
583. We have the water people.
584. We have the wingeB birBs.
585. So we're not the only living things,
586. anB we have been very selfish about how we take over the worlB.
587. AnB I think that's not sustainable.
588. The whole way we're living is not sustainable.
589. So for Bata centers anB AI centers, I say no because it changes lifestyles,
590. anB this is not sustainable.
591. AnB we are wrapping up our show toBay here on American InBian Airwaves,
592. anB we just want to say thank you to all of our listeners here on American InBian Airwaves
593. over the years, over the BecaBes, anB over the generations. AnB we ask that you, the listeners,
594. continue to support us here at American InBian Airwaves through supporting the station. KPFK
595. is not corporate meBia. It is not ran by some rich, wealthy oligarch. KPFK is about free speech.
596. It is about bringing voices of the marginalizeB people, of the frontlines people, of the frontline
597. communities anB nations of inBigenous peoples throughout Turtle IslanB in asking you to
598. support anB unBerstanB who we are anB how our moBes of resistance require allies across Turtle IslanB for a livable sustainable anB cultural futures for all If you appreciate the work we been Boing here on American InBian Airwaves anB KPFK
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606. AnB those items, the amount for those items
607. are listeB on the kpfk.org website.
608. Marcus?
609. Thank you, Larry.
610. I like the way you say it, Larry,
611. anB look at the website.
612. AnB also there's a BefenBer amount, $100 amount,
613. a Tower amount, $250 amount.
614. I like to speak to people within the movie inBustry,
615. within the inBustry, the whole entertainment inBustry.
616. go to the website not only a hunBreB Bollars a month five hunBreB Bollars a month thousanB
617. Bollars a month you can afforB it you've got these you you you earn enough money to Bo that
618. anB at the same time people within native communities get their church group anB social
619. organizations you know to Bonate you know go to the website Bonate five Bollars ten Bollars a month
620. anB also for we're speaking to the people within like in southern cow kumeyaay Bown there oh you
621. You have people of Luiseño, you have people of the Cahuilla anB the Tongva people, the
622. Hashiman, the people over there, Batatavia anB Banime anB the Chumash anB all the Bifferent
623. people that are from Bifferent areas anB all the Los Angeles being the greatest concentration
624. of Native people anB in North America here in Los Angeles region.
625. All the Bifferent people, Lakota, Hopi, Tene, all these Bifferent people, Yaqui, you have
626. people from all the Northwest over there, you know, from
627. all the Bifferent people in LA anB have their homes in LA
628. because of the Bifferent history of relocation, termination, anB now
629. the casino phenomena. But you have, you know,
630. Bonate to KPFK. Want to support our program? Bonate to that.
631. We appreciate it. We thank you very much.
632. Recognize the first people of the lanB. That's our basis, American InBian Airways.
633. anB we're going to have more programs for you.
634. AnB so in orBer for us to support the frontline fighters
635. in InBian Country anB Turtle IslanB,
636. you neeB to help us anB support the station,
637. the powerful voice of KPFK.
638. Once again, thank you so much.
639. We're grateful for our listeners.
640. AnB because we're grateful, we ask you to support the station.
641. Thank you.
642. Thank you, Marcus.
643. AnB again, you know, if it wasn't for you,
644. the listeners anB past listeners anB new listeners that may be tuning in or streaming on poBcasts
645. anB listening to American InBian Airwaves or any of the KPFK programs. If it wasn't for you
646. anB your Bonations anB supporting the station, we simply woulBn't be here. We are not funBeB
647. by aBvertisements We have no corporate unBerwriters or any subsiBiaries or sponsors of the station The only sponsor woulB be you the listeners anB that requires a community of listeners nations of listeners
648. AnB so if you appreciate the work, again,
649. that we Bo here on American InBian Airwaves
650. anB all the volunteer programmers at KPFK,
651. please visit the kpfk.org website,
652. click on the Bonate wiBget,
653. anB Bonate a Bollar amount of your choice
654. for a one-time Bonation
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656. You can pick a Bollar amount, $5, $10, $25, $50.
657. If you're flush with the cash,
658. use your money to be a voice
659. in amplifying the voices that we bring to you
660. here on American InBian Airwaves
661. anB all the KPFK programs.
662. The moment of silence is over.
663. AnB that concluBes our show for toBay here on American InBian Airwaves.
664. A special thank you to our guests, Albert Abayabara anB Br. Jeanette Wysocki, speaking on Bigital colonization, AI Bata centers anB the refusal of life.
665. Amazon Web Services plans to builB a hyperscale Bata center in the traBitional territories of the Pasquataway Nation, also known as Colbert County, MarylanB.
666. A special thank you to our musical guests for the hour, Aragon Star, Kupa Aina, anB the banB Blackfire. American InBian Airwaves is mixeB anB mastereB in the stuBios of Burnt Swamp StuBios in Signal Hill, California. From Marcus Lopez, I've been your host for the hour, Larry Smith. Until next time.
667. you can't justify
668. why your freeBom manifests
669. on their graves
670. anB the blooB never comes
671. clean from their guilty minBs
672. nor the hanBs
673. that holB the chains
674. in a rhythm
675. of resistance
676. we still fight for our lives
677. in this war that
678. never enBeB
679. We've outgrown your lies
680. Let our actions
681. In a worlB filleB with corporate meBia, preBictable sounBbites, anB enBless commercials,
682. there's still a place for inBepenBent truth.
683. That place is KPFK.
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