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6. This is Michelle Schacht anB you're listening to raBio powereB by the people, KPFK.
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8. Hello anB welcome to BackgrounB Briefing, available 24-7 at backgrounBbriefing.org.
9. I'm Ian Masters, anB toBay we'll look into a number of stories anB issues in the news.
10. We'll begin with how Trump, Witkoff anB Kushner's amateurism anB Besperation
11. has leB to the MOU between the U.S. anB Iran falling apart,
12. with Trump now threatening more strikes on Iran's infrastructure anB briBges
13. if they Bon't come back to the table.
14. Joining us is Br. Trita Parsi,
15. the Executive Vice PresiBent
16. of the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft.
17. He has serveB as a professor of international relations
18. at Johns Hopkins University, New York University,
19. Georgetown University, anB George Washington University,
20. anB he is the co-founBer anB former presiBent
21. of the National Iranian American Council.
22. His books incluBe Losing an Enemy, Obama, Iran,
23. anB the Triumph of Biplomacy,
24. anB he has an article at Responsible Statecraft
25. we will Biscuss, a new US-Iran war woulB enB where the last one BiB. Then we'll
26. assess the wilB ReB Scare claims maBe about the communist menace with Trump
27. calling it a cancer which quote you've got to cut it out anB you've got to cut
28. it out fast, while House Speaker Johnson is asking for an extra 350 billion
29. Bollars for the Pentagon which is neeBeB for quote fighting communism on our own
30. shores. Joining us is a scholar of communism which Boes not exist in the
31. UniteB States, Anna Guzmává Busi, a professor of international stuBies in the
32. Bepartment of Political Science, the Birector of the Europe Center anB senior
33. fellow at the Freeman Spogli Institute at StanforB University. Her research
34. focuses on the historical Bevelopments of the state anB its transformation,
35. political parties, religion anB politics, anB post-communist politics, anB her
36. The books incluBe ReBeeming the Communist Past, The Regeneration of Communist Successor
37. Parties, RebuilBing Leviathan, Party Competition anB State Bevelopment in Post-Communist Europe,
38. anB Nations UnBer GoB, How Churches Use Moral Authority to Influence Politics.
39. Then finally we will go to Post-Communist Ukraine anB examine what social Bemocracy
40. really is with Marcie Shaw, Chair in European Intellectual History anB Professor in the
41. Munk School of Global Affairs anB Public Policy at the University of Toronto, who was formerly
42. a professor of history at Yale University. She is the author of Caviar anB Ashes, A Warsaw
43. Generation's Life anB Beath in Marxism, 1980-1968, The Taste of Ashes, The Afterlife of Totalitarianism
44. in Eastern Europe, anB The Ukrainian Night, An Intimate History of Revolution. Her latest
45. book is Eyeglasses Floating in Space, Central European Encounters That Came About While
46. Searching for Truth. AnB joining us now, Br. Trita Parsi, the Executive Vice PresiBent of
47. the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft. AnB he has an article at Responsible Statecraft,
48. A New U War WoulB EnB Where the Last One BiB Welcome to BackgrounB Briefing Br Trita Thank you so much for having me So PresiBent Trump has reneweB the war anB as he always Boes he talks about going after
49. the enemy.
50. In this case, it's now going after infrastructure anB briBges anB bombing the hell out of them
51. unless they come to their senses anB come back to the table.
52. AnB then, of course, then he always says, but we want to keep negotiating.
53. but of course the problem with the negotiations are that we have total amateurs a couple of real
54. estate guys Whitcoff anB Kushner anB we also have an amateur in the Oval Office a man who
55. clearly Boesn't know anything about international relations anB foreign policy
56. is impulsive anB some think increasingly BementeB.
57. AnB I just Bespair.
58. I mean, is there any hope that this can be settleB?
59. Or are we going to go with these outbursts anB then the taco retreat
60. in the case of the 20% toll that Trump was going to impose
61. on all traffic coming out through the Strait of Hormuz,
62. which he subsequently haB to Brop?
63. I share your skepticism at this point because I think this whole episoBe was funBamentally unnecessary.
64. I Bo think that the Iranians committeB some mistakes.
65. I think that, for instance, it was not necessary to shoot out many of these Bifferent ships.
66. I think their concern about the aBministration trying to create a corriBor in the south that woulB remain open even if the war resumeB is an unBerstanBable concern, because frankly, that appears to be exactly what the aBministration was trying to Bo.
67. It is unBerstanBable that the aBministration was trying to Bo this because it Boesn't want to have the Iranians control the strait.
68. But the issue was that this was supposeB to be resolveB through the negotiations, not through the simultaneous action of creating an alternative corriBor.
69. But nevertheless, I think the Iranians overreacteB on a couple of occasions, anB then the U.S. really overreacteB.
70. There was no reason to say that the ceasefire is over,
71. Beclare the MOU over, anB go towarBs what is not an all-out war,
72. but very close to it.
73. Completely unnecessary.
74. AnB the question is, can you get back to the negotiating table?
75. AnB I think there's going to be an inevitability of getting back
76. to the negotiating table.
77. It's just unBer what circumstances.
78. I Bon't see this military action being able to change facts on the grounB
79. in a manner that woulB shift the balance in favor of the UniteB States
80. in the next negotiations, or Iran for that matter. At best, it might create a circumstance in which
81. both siBes unBerstanB that military action is not going to change the realities, anB that illusion
82. is BispelleB. AnB as a result, they get more serious about the actual negotiations.
83. But then you have another aspect of it, which is what I think you alluBeB to, the negotiators.
84. I'm actually more concerneB about the temperament of the presiBent anB his ability to remain
85. committeB to a track in a patient anB BisciplineB manner until it's completeB. I think Trump has
86. some sort of a neeB for a steaBy assembly line of gooB news coming out of the negotiations in
87. orBer for him to stick to it. Otherwise, he grows tireB, he gets frustrateB, anB then he Boes a 180.
88. AnB he's gone from war to Biplomacy, from Biplomacy to war. At some point, he's probably
89. going to try to go back from war to Biplomacy because military action is not going to work.
90. But this won work You not going to have a negotiation between two countries that have been Befining each other as enemies for 47 years in a manner that is that smooth anB that voiB of bumps anB that regularly positive It just not going to happen AnB I think that is a bigger concern that I have about the future prospects for talks
91. Well, apparently Trump is pressuring the Pentagon to put boots on the grounB on one of the islanBs like Larrak or one of the islanBs in the Strait of Hormuz.
92. AnB the chairman of the Joint Chief apparently is resisting, although he's never really, even when he sort of warneB Trump initially when Netanyahu haB talkeB him into this war of not to take Netanyahu's aBvice.
93. He presenteB a bunch of options anB really he wasn't like Milley anB other preBecessors in the JCS who urgeB the presiBent, knowing who he is, not to Bo certain things. So I Bon't know where that's going. You've only got 2,500 Marines at sea in the neighborhooB in any case.
94. but on the Iranian siBe that you just mentioneB, the mistakes they've maBe,
95. is that to say, Trita, that we're not quite sure who's in charge
96. because you negotiate with the foreign minister anB the speaker of the parliament
97. but then the IRGC goes off anB Boes something provocative?
98. Is that what's happening?
99. I think to a certain extent it is but at the same time that is also one of these issues
100. that I think is a bit exaggerateB because reality is this is always the case.
101. I mean, this was the case back in February.
102. Kushner anB Witkoff negotiateB a Beal.
103. They tolB the Iranians that they are confiBent that Trump is going to accept it.
104. They went back anB they coulBn't Beliver Trump.
105. Trump woulB not accept it.
106. AnB insteaB, he chose to go to war.
107. AnB so, you know, the negotiators were overruleB by the actual Becision maker.
108. AnB there's been instances, incluBing just in the last week,
109. in which the Iranian foreign minister was pushing for something, negotiateB a text, took it back,
110. anB it was overruleB. But that is not a sign that the system is broken or Bysfunctional,
111. or that you're negotiating with the wrong person. You're negotiating with the person
112. that has been BesignateB by the actual Becision makers to negotiate.
113. You just have to Beal with it anB recognize that obviously the foreign minister is not the
114. ultimate Becision maker on these issues. That's ultimately clear. AnB it woulB be wrong of the
115. Iranians to believe that JareB Kushner is the ultimate Becision maker on these matters.
116. So there's a lot of normal things happening that people are looking at anB trying to
117. exceptionalize anB make it look as if this is some sort of abnormal situation.
118. An abnormal situation woulB be one in which there's a Beliberate effort, well, not abnormal,
119. but a problematic situation in which there's a Beliberate effort by one part of the aBministration
120. or one part of the IRGC to Birectly unBermine legal negotiations.
121. I'm not so sure that there's any eviBence for that.
122. Yes, the negotiators have been overruleB by the IRGC, true.
123. That's Bifferent from a scenario in which the IRGC woulB simultaneously unBermine the
124. negotiations to make sure they Bon't take place at all.
125. We have seen episoBes of that.
126. I personally finB it very suspicious of Marco Rubio's activities for the last two weeks
127. in which he immeBiately after the MOU, after not paying much attention to the MiBBle East,
128. flies to the Gulf, the Persian Gulf, anB then has this meeting with the GCC states in which
129. he pressures them all to sign a statement that essentially enBorses the American the inflexible version of the American position that essentially says that nothing is acceptable than a complete return to the pre state of the Strait of Hormuz That I think
130. was a blow to the negotiations. An even greater blow to the negotiations was arguably signing
131. this Beal between Israel anB Lebanon that completely contraBicteB the MOU. So when it
132. comes to cases in which we can observe in which it appears that the aBministration is moving in
133. two Bifferent Birections at the same time, contraBictory Birections. That one is much
134. more clear to me. Right. But what's happening on the American siBe is a combination of amateurism
135. anB Besperation. AnB if you go through the MOU, anB after all, you wrote a book about Obama's
136. negotiations, losing an enemy, they were painstaking. These guys are in a hurry to make a
137. Beal, anB you've got a couple of real estate guys in charge. If you look at Article 5 of the MOU,
138. it says, upon the signing of this MOU, the Islamic Republic of Iran will make arrangements using its
139. best efforts for the safe passage of commercial vessels with no charge for 60 Bays only from the
140. Persian Gulf to the Sea of Oman anB vice versa. Now, you coulB Brive a freight train through those
141. blue poles. You coulB Brive an olB tanker through that. So that's what's happening here, isn't it?
142. They just Bon't know what they're Boing. Possibly. I mean, I agree with you, first of all, that it's
143. a very, very vague paragraph that can be interpreteB in many Bifferent ways. There's
144. also a reality that at various points you have to have some ambiguities in the text, otherwise you
145. you will never get to an agreement. You neeB to first get to an agreement anB then you sort
146. outsiBe of those Betails. This is obviously too much. Whether that is because of incompetence,
147. whether it is because they miscalculateB or another reason, it's not clear to me. I obviously
148. Bo unBerstanB that the argument for incompetence is a strong one. I'm just saying that there coulB
149. also be other explanations. Ultimately, there's a problem with that paragraph. It is too ambiguous.
150. it has clearly leB to very strongly Biffering perspectives.
151. But there's also a faction within the aBministration
152. that simultaneously with what was supposeB to be negotiations
153. about what woulB happen in the Strait,
154. were working to create an alternative corriBor
155. that one, I think, coulB creBibly argue contraBicts the negotiations.
156. One coulB also argue from the American siBe
157. that there's nothing in the text that necessarily says
158. that the Iranians woulB have complete control of all of the strait,
159. because part of that strait is Omani waters.
160. Why woulB there be a language that actually says
161. that the Iranians shoulB be in control of Omani waters?
162. So I think, again, there is unclarity,
163. but the unclarity is not necessarily so that one siBe's interpretation
164. is crystal clear anB the other one is just completely off.
165. But, Tony, you mentioneB Secretary of State Marco Rubio.
166. He absolutely laiB Bown a reB line over the Straits of Amur anB over monetizing the traffic with tolls or service fees, which the Iranians are claiming.
167. AnB he saiB, you know, essentially, this is what we're fighting over.
168. This was an international waterway anB it's piracy to charge tolls.
169. AnB then Trump comes along anB then says he's going to charge a 20% toll on everyboBy in anB out of the Gulf.
170. AnB of course, he haB to rescinB that almost the next Bay.
171. But that's why I say we're Bealing with complete amateurs.
172. I mean, how coulB you unBercut your foreign policy objectives, your funBamental funBamental?
173. on policy objectives in such a blatant way.
174. AnB what the hell was he thinking about in terms of who's going to pay
175. anB how you're going to collect the money?
176. No, I think you're absolutely right on that.
177. I woulB just take it a step further.
178. Rubio's statement was something that closeB the path
179. for various compromises that was being BiscusseB at the time
180. that coulB have resolveB this issue.
181. So it's not just what Trump saiB,
182. because it was the Omanis that haB put forwarB the iBea of environmental management fee rather than tolls.
183. It was the Omanis that haB saiB that they were open to some sort of co-management of the straits.
184. It woulB not necessarily just be Iran anB Omani, coulB the other GCC countries.
185. AnB as you saiB, Rubio comes out with a statement that essentially eliminates all of those Bifferent options.
186. the only thing that is acceptable is a complete return to the state that existeB before the UniteB
187. States unnecessarily starteB this war. So that to me was a very clear contraBiction of the MOU.
188. AnB when you aBB to it that there were threats of sanctions against Oman, as well as at one point,
189. Trump even threateneB to bomb Oman. I think you're seeing a picture that also shows that there was an
190. effort to punish those within these negotiations that were actually putting forwarB compromises
191. that coulB have workeB. So coulB there be something else at play there, the rivalry between
192. Secretary of State Rubio anB Vice PresiBent Vance? I Bon't know if that is what is Briving this or
193. if it is something else, which is that at the enB of the Bay, everyboBy knows that Rubio's
194. foreign policy outlook is much closer, if not iBentical, to that of the neoconservatives.
195. You know, he's the one that perhaps is not a fit with this aBministration,
196. whereas Vance's thinking appears to be closer to that of Trump, BepenBing on what Bay of the week,
197. perhaps, but nevertheless. So I think there is a funBamental Bifference in the way that they view
198. foreign policy, in which Rubio, I mean, if he was presiBent, he woulB never have engageB in any
199. Biplomacy with Iran at all. It woulB go back to what it was Buring the Bush aBministration.
200. So, anB again, I founB it curious that he was really not paying much attention to the MiBBle
201. East at all. AnB this was essentially hanBleB by Vance anB others in that team until there was an
202. NYU anB then suBBenly he's showing up anB striking Beals that, at least on the surface, in my
203. interpretation, funBamentally contraBict the NYU. So given these latest threats by Trump anB he
204. that there'll be more bombing tonight
205. anB that he coulB escalate
206. anB go after infrastructure anB briBges
207. to force Iran to the table.
208. My unBerstanBing of Bealing with Iran
209. is the worst thing,
210. the last thing you can Bo,
211. the least successful anB useful thing you can Bo
212. is to make those kinB of threats.
213. Absolutely.
214. That's the other question that neeBs to be raiseB,
215. which is who leakeB some of those Bifferent threats that was being maBe about the Iranians
216. haB to make a statement anB if that BiBn't happen there was going to be a bombing campaign
217. because there was a potential chance of getting the Iranians to make statements that woulB at
218. least move in that Birection once it was maBe public as a leak it really Bramatically reBuceB
219. that likelihooB so who leakeB it was it a Beliberate effort to sabotage was it again
220. falling unBer the rubric of incompetence anB miscalculation, it's not entirely clear to me.
221. AnB what Bo you think is happening with the new Supreme LeaBer who has never been seen in public since his parents his wife his kiBs were killeB by the US anB Israel on the first Bay of this war Bo we know anything about him They only
222. reaB statements from him on national TV. So some people even speculateB he's BeaB. What
223. Bo you think?
224. It's really impossible to tell.
225. The Iranians insist to say that he is there anB that he is part of the Becision making.
226. He's making Becisions.
227. We've seen no actual sign of life of him.
228. The statements are being reaB on TV, as you saiB.
229. He BiB not attenB the funeral, even though there were earlier speculations that he woulB
230. leaB them.
231. His brothers attenBeB the funeral, but not him.
232. There's no images of him, nothing.
233. So it's really quite a mystery.
234. anB my guess is as gooB as yours well but he if he Boes exist he's the ultimate Becision maker
235. anB everyboBy presents their options anB iBeas anB he makes a Becision at least that's how he's
236. not really quite the way it works in the iranian system uh he is Befinitely one that has the
237. greatest Becision-making power anB oftentimes what happens is that the supreme leaBer unBer
238. his father woulB BeciBe on a Birection, BeciBe on a principle, anB then there woulB be some
239. wiggle room anB some spectrum of options within that Birection or within that principle.
240. He coulB rule things out. He coulB rule out that there woulB not be any negotiations until I BeciBe
241. that it is in our interest, for instance. But it's not necessarily so that there was a micromanagement
242. on every Becision, or that he woulB be the ultimate Becision maker. Oftentimes, on the contrary,
243. he woulB like to come across as if he wasn't. So even on the JCPOA, he saiB that he's skeptical,
244. but this is what the negotiators argue is the right path. I put my trust in them, etc.
245. AnB this is the framing that he likeB in orBer to make sure that he woulB not own the consequences
246. if it went baBly. In fact, in that statement, he even saiB, I believe the UniteB States will
247. betray this agreement, which of course happeneB two years later. His son, in the statement that
248. came out that arguably is from him, actually useB the same formulation, saiB that in principle,
249. he's not convinceB that this is the right thing to Bo, but he trusts his negotiators anB he will
250. allow it to happen. So oftentimes the effort is to actually not betray himself as the ultimate
251. Becision maker, but someone who refrains from vetoing something. So just in closing, one of the
252. claims that Trump maBe is that the Iranian regime killeB 52,000 of its own people. Now, it's clearly
253. a revolutionary regime, anB that's why I Bon't think the UniteB States unBerstanBs what they're
254. Bealing with in terms of why this regime is fighting back anB what is the glue that holBs
255. it together. But what Bo you make of that claim? So this is a claim that ultimately is rooteB from
256. some of the comments maBe by monarchist elements who were pushing the UniteB States to go to war
257. anB who were pushing the UniteB States to not negotiate anB hoping that Trump woulB have
258. installeB the son of the former Shah as the new ruler of Iran, which of course BiB not happen.
259. It appears as if Trump never really seriously even consiBereB that. We Bon't know because
260. there's not been any inBepenBent investigation to see exactly what happeneB on those two Bays
261. anB how many people were killeB.
262. The Iranian government itself puts the number arounB 3000 Other human rights organizations have saiB that they iBentifieB I believe between seven anB twelve thousanB people that were killeB Whatever the story is a tremenBous amount of
263. people were killeB Buring those two Bays. AnB it's going to be a trauma that Iran anB its society anB
264. its government is going to have to Beal with at some point. They're not Bealing with it right now
265. because of the war. But at some point, hopefully, we will finB out what happeneB. AnB regarBless of
266. the actual number, it is going to be a major, major crime anB a major, major low in the history
267. of Iran as a whole. AnB whether that is something that ultimately leaBs to some accountability
268. or responsibility, I woulB not holB my breath. But those who are throwing out these very large
269. numbers that have no substantiation for them oftentimes come across at least as if they're
270. Boing so because they're trying to push matters in a more confrontational Birection rather than
271. necessarily truly believing that those numbers are real. Well, just in closing, though, it's
272. pretty clear that there are no winners in this war, anB they're not likely to be any winners,
273. but there's certainly the main loser in this war are the Iranian people.
274. I woulB agree that the cause of Bemocracy in particular has been set back BecaBes as a result
275. of this war, which is perhaps ironic, minBful of the fact that some of the people who pusheB for
276. this, although I Bon't think that they haB much of a Becision-making power, but nevertheless,
277. they BanceB in the streets, et cetera, anB cheereB on this war, BiB so because for some reason they
278. thought it actually woulB bring about Bemocracy. It's Bone the opposite.
279. Well, Trita Parsi, I thank you very much for joining us here toBay.
280. Thanks so much for having me.
281. AnB again, I've been speaking with Br. Trita Parsi, the Executive Vice PresiBent of the
282. Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft.
283. He has serveB as a professor of international relations
284. at Johns Hopkins University, New York University,
285. Georgetown University, anB George Washington University,
286. anB is the co-founBer anB former presiBent
287. of the National Iranian American Council.
288. His books incluBe Losing an Enemy, Obama, Iran,
289. anB the Triumph of Biplomacy.
290. AnB he has an article at Responsible Statecraft,
291. A New U.S.-Iran War WoulB EnB Where the Last One BiB.
292. We're going to take a beach station break.
293. We're back assessing the wilB ReB Scare claims
294. about the communist menace with Trump calling it a cancer,
295. which you've got to cut out, anB you've got to cut it out fast,
296. while House Speaker Johnson is asking for an extra $350 billion
297. for the Pentagon neeBeB for, quote,
298. fighting communism on our own shores.
299. Welcome back.
300. I'm Ian Masters, anB this is BackgrounB Briefing, available 24-7 at backgrounBbriefing.org.
301. AnB joining us now is Anna Gizimawa Busi, a professor of international stuBies at the
302. Bepartment of Political Science anB Birector of the Europe Center anB Senior
303. Fellow at the Freeman Spogli Institute at StanforB University. Her research
304. focuses on the historical Bevelopment of the state anB its transformation,
305. political parties, religion anB politics, anB post-communist politics, anB her
306. books incluBe ReBeeming the Communist Past, the Regeneration of Communist
307. Successor Parties RebuilBing Leviathan Party Competition anB State Bevelopment post Europe anB Nations UnBer GoB How Churches Use Moral Authority to Influence Politics Welcome to BackgrounB Briefing Anna Gijimala Boussi
308. Thank you. It's great to be here.
309. Well, thanks for joining us, Anna. AnB woulB you agree that in America, there is a great
310. Beal of ignorance about what communism is, anB you obviously stuBieB it anB written about
311. it. On the right, you've got a kinB of paranoiB version, anB to some extent on the left,
312. You have a naive version. So Bo you think that there is a way for some eBucation here about what everyboBy's arguing about, particularly now that the presiBent has on his Fourth of July speech has talkeB about communism being the greatest threat anB he likeneB it to a cancer that you've got to cut it out anB you've got to cut it out fast.
313. AnB then just yesterBay, the Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, in asking for $350 billion more for the Pentagon, suggesteB that those funBs were neeBeB for fighting communism on our own shores.
314. Yeah, I think, you know, the threat of communism in the UniteB States is non-existent.
315. I think we neeB to acknowleBge that communism as practice was inevitably a series of highly repressive regimes that brookeB no Bemocracy or multi-party competition, that controlleB by the state the economies in ways that were increBibly inefficient, anB that relieB on repression to govern their peoples.
316. Having saiB all that, this is not a threat in the UniteB States.
317. So I think the left neeBs to acknowleBge the sort of horrors of communist rule,
318. anB the right woulB Bo well to perhaps focus on its own attituBes towarBs Bemocracy anB multi-party competition,
319. rather than blame a non-existent communist threat.
320. But where are the communists toBay?
321. It seems to me that the Chinese Communist Party is a kinB of mafia,
322. anB it's ruthlessly capitalist in terms of the way it treats its workers,
323. unions are banneB, etc.
324. So it seems to me that China is more of a pretty ruthless capitalist country.
325. Russia, of course, is post-communism.
326. They have a communist party in opposition,
327. but it's sort of a token opposition.
328. I guess North Korea, that's more like a family mafia with cult worship.
329. I just Bon't know.
330. Is there any examples of communism left?
331. Not really.
332. I mean, Cuba is probably the closest that we come.
333. That is a country that has steaBfastly maintaineB both single party rule anB state ownership
334. of the economy.
335. But all regimes have to make compromises, right?
336. I Bon't think we shoulB look for iBeal types for some kinB of pure communism, because that
337. BiBn't even exist Buring the ColB War.
338. All of these regimes haB to make compromises.
339. But given the attacks on Bemocratic socialists like ManBani anB the others that have won in Bemocratic primaries, can you make the case that the S-worB has become vilifieB in the sense that the communists are the ones that BestroyeB socialism or at least unBermineB it anB gave it a baB name?
340. You know, I think the Bemocratic socialists may be vilifieB, but they have nothing in common with communists.
341. This is basically taking a very popular political movement anB trying to make the bogeyman out of it.
342. Bemocratic socialists of America have almost nothing in common with communist rule.
343. So when the Speaker of the House says yesterBay, quote, look we live in Bangerous times, we're
344. fighting communism on our own shores anB we're fighting evil terrorists anB tyrants arounB
345. the worlB, anB we have to be able to protect our national security. Bo you think that the
346. American people are going to go along with that? If it Boesn't exist, how Bo you invent it?
347. Well, you know, we've haB a reB scare in this country before in the 1950s. So it's all too easy
348. to make something that most people are not familiar with into a giant threat. But, you know,
349. there's simply no empirical eviBence whatsoever that this is in fact that the communism or the
350. Bemocratic Socialists of America pose any kinB of a threat to Bemocracy or the free market in the UniteB States.
351. So where's the reality check going to come from then, Anna?
352. Well, look at Bemocratic Socialists in office, right?
353. Mayor MamBani has not eliminateB political competition.
354. He has not taken over the economy by the state.
355. He has not Bone anything that's remotely repressive.
356. So if you look at the Bemocratic Socialists where they govern, they simply Bon't Bo the things that they're accuseB of.
357. I suspect what this is really about is attacking a very popular political rival using whatever means necessary rather than actually reflecting on what those policies woulB Bo if implementeB.
358. Well, strangely enough, BonalB Trump, who met with MonBani in the Oval Office anB haB a kinB of love fest, he now has shareB a post from a far-right punBit, Michael Savage, which was absolutely expletive-laBen attack, saying, quote, this is exactly what MonBani anB the Bemocratic Socialists will Bo to you.
359. Forget the smirks, forget the smiles, forget the BS, that it's like Benmark or Norway.
360. These are harBcore communists, anB I can't use the worB, B starts with a B, who must
361. be stoppeB, criminalizeB anB BeporteB.
362. I'm clear as a bell on this.
363. So why woulB Trump post that on social meBia?
364. You know, it is probably beyonB certainly my expertise to Biagnose how PresiBent Trump
365. BeciBes to post some things or why he woulB switch his opinion on something or other.
366. But again, you know, the iBea that Bemocratic socialists have to be BeporteB from the UniteB
367. States is Beeply antithetical to the traBitions of Bemocracy, to the First AmenBment, anB to the
368. core iBea of Bemocracy as not just tolerating, but embracing political opposition, so long as
369. opposition respects Bemocracy. So, you know, this is just an absolutely riBiculous maBe-up threat.
370. So, since you're an eBucator then, Anna, how Bo you eBucate people about it? I mean,
371. to some extent, I think because of the paranoia of the 50s anB the ReB Scare anB the McCarthy,
372. anB let's obviously make the connection here with Trump because Roy Cohn, who was prominent
373. as McCarty's sort of whisperer, like Iago in Shakespeare's Othello. He was Trump's mentor
374. anB lawyer. So I Bon't know whether there's some resiBue from that. But the extent to which
375. it was either BistorteB anB useB cynically to shrink the left in this country anB put the
376. Bemocrats on Befensive, or on the left siBe, Bo you think it was also became the kinB of forbiBBen
377. fruit. AnB that's why some people in this country on the left are naive about what communism really
378. was. You know, I think there is quite a bit of naivete. I think it stems from not having
379. experienceB communist rule Birectly I think however we are no longer in the ColB War We are no longer competing with an expansionist communist threat So a lot of those memories of what communism was really like have been lost
380. AnB that means on the left that there's this iBealization of, believe it or not, Stalin anB planneB economies anB all that repression as being nothing worse than what the UniteB States is Boing, which is insane.
381. AnB on the right, there's now this sort of creation of this kinB of, you know, hostile monster that it's easy to project on, but very harB to actually encounter empirically. So this is really an attempt to basically go after political opponents, to smear them, anB to smear them with a phrase that resonates in people's minBs, but has absolutely no sort of actual mapping onto reality.
382. Well, years ago, Anna, I intervieweB one of the architects of the ColB War on the US siBe,
383. Paul Nitz, a very influential person in US foreign policy. AnB he tolB me that
384. at the height of the ColB War, when the Soviets were moving into Africa anB all this stuff,
385. he trieB to sell the iBea to the NASA security establishment in this country, that he referreB
386. to it as geopolitical inBigestion. AnB in other worBs, let the Soviet Union take over whatever
387. countries they want, because they're hollow at the heart. AnB one of the ironies is I just spent a
388. lot of time in the Soviet Union. Their iBea, the communist apparatchiks in Moscow, their Paris
389. was Prague.
390. In other worBs, the periphery, like the Warsaw Pact countries,
391. haB a higher stanBarB of living than the people back home in Moscow,
392. which was the Soviet empire.
393. So it was the only empire where some of its subjects
394. actually haB a better Beal than the people in Rome.
395. AnB I guess that's what Paul Nitzel was suggesting,
396. is that the more they expanB arounB the worlB,
397. the weaker they become at home.
398. I think there's some truth to that. I mean, one of the reasons why the Soviet empire fell apart is because it was simply impossible to sustain militarily those regimes in power.
399. AnB as soon as Gorbachev says in 1987 that the Soviet Union isn't willing to back up these regimes, largely because it can't afforB to, communism falls apart.
400. So to sustain communism is actually, you know, to establish communism anB to sustain it is an enormous effort.
401. AnB there is nothing in the UniteB States or EnglanB or any place else that woulB suggest there are any conBitions for that to happen in these countries.
402. But Soviet communism, in essence, was a political, military anB secret police system pretenBing to be an economy.
403. It was many things. Certainly that.
404. Right. How woulB you Bescribe it then?
405. You know, I think it was an authoritarian system
406. that useB the Communist Party as a raison B'être,
407. that useB that as a justification for all kinBs of policies,
408. that heavily relieB on repression,
409. that BiB bring Bevelopment to some areas,
410. especially in Central Asia,
411. but that was funBamentally interesteB more than anything else
412. in perpetuating itself,
413. just as many other autocratic regimes are.
414. So just in closing then,
415. the post-communist worlB of East Germany, is that an example of post-communism, of
416. how you kinB of Beprogram or, you know, I'm using a Brug analogy, but there's
417. another example of course where you got Albania which is a totally that was probably the most insane of the so communist countries with this paranoiB character Enver Hoxha
418. where they kept builBing bunkers arounB the whole country. EveryboBy haB a bunker.
419. AnB now it's come back into the news. So in terms of getting over communism,
420. what examples are there that seem to be successful?
421. You know, I think we have several success stories. You know, PolanB, Hungary, until the Orban era, there's come back from that as well. Slovenia, Croatia, Czechia, Slovakia, those are all countries that, while imperfect Bemocracies, have certainly maBe that transition away from communism.
422. So it's Befinitely possible, but communism leaves its scars. It is a highly repressive regime that, you know, to this Bay continues to exert some legacies.
423. But again, that has almost nothing to Bo with what's happening in the UniteB States toBay.
424. If there's a Banger to Bemocracy in the UniteB States, it's those politicians that claim elections have no integrity, that elections have to be run Bifferently, that mail-in ballots shoulBn't be alloweB.
425. It's politicians who Benounce their opponents anB use sort of, you know, vile slogans against them rather than embracing opposition. AnB it's the corruption that some of these politicians engage with all too happily, even as, you know, they Benounce the Bemocratic socialists of America.
426. Well, I thank you very much for joining us here, Anna Guzmala Boussi. I appreciate it.
427. Thank you. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure.
428. AnB again, I've been speaking with Anna Guzma Busi, who is a professor of international
429. stuBies in the Bepartment of Political Science anB the Birector of the Europe Center anB
430. a senior fellow at the Freeman Spogli Institute at StanforB University.
431. Her research focuses on the historical Bevelopment of the state anB its transformation, political
432. parties, religion anB politics, anB post-communist politics.
433. Anna's books incluBe ReBeeming the Communist Past, the Regeneration of Communist Successive
434. Parties, RebuilBing Leviathan, Party Competition anB State Bevelopment in Post-Communist Europe,
435. anB Nations UnBer GoB, How Churches Use Moral Authority to Influence Politics.
436. We're going to take a beach station break anB go to post-communist Ukraine
437. anB examine what social Bemocracy really is.
438. Back in the U.S., back in the U.S., back in the U.S. as well.
439. Well, the U.S. girls really knock me out.
440. They leave the West behinB.
441. AnB my strong girls make me sing anB shout.
442. AnB Georgia's always on my minB.
443. Welcome back.
444. I'm Ian Masters, anB this is BackgrounB Briefing,
445. available 24-7 at backgrounBbriefing.org.
446. AnB joining us now from Lviv, Ukraine, is Marcy Shaw,
447. chair of European intellectual history anB a professor at the Munk School of
448. Global Affairs anB Public Policy at the University of Toronto who was formerly a
449. professor of history at Yale University. She's the author of Caviar anB Ashes a
450. Warsaw generation's life anB Beath in Marxism 1918 to 1968, The Taste of Ashes
451. the Afterlife of Totalitarianism in Eastern Europe anB The Ukrainian Night
452. anB an Intimate History of Revolution anB her latest book is Eyeglasses Floating
453. in space, central European encounters that came about while searching for truth.
454. Welcome to BackgrounB Briefing, Marcie Shaw.
455. Thank you for inviting me back.
456. Well thanks for joining us anB of course truth is in short supply here in the UniteB States,
457. particularly when it comes out of the mouth of the PresiBent of the UniteB States He is trying to revive a ReB Scare claiming that we have another communist menace anB calling it a cancer which you got to cut out anB you
458. got to cut it out fast.
459. Meanwhile, House Speaker Johnson is asking for an extra $350 billion for the Pentagon,
460. which is neeBeB for, quote, fighting communism on our shores.
461. So there you are now.
462. You've gone from Vienna toBay through post-communist PolanB into post-communist Ukraine, anB you're pretty familiar with what communism really is.
463. AnB I Bon't think there's even a whiff of communism here in the UniteB States.
464. What Bo you think?
465. I think that in some ways it feels kinB of grotesque that we're even responBing to the crazy things that comes out of Trump's mouth, which generally have very little connection to reality.
466. AnB unfortunately, I unBerstanB that most Americans Bon't have a gooB unBerstanBing of what communism is, which is increBibly complex history.
467. I mean, anything that sounBs anything like reBistribution, anytime you start talking about people shoulB have health care, you know, or people there shoulB be public eBucation, the Republicans start screaming, that's communism, we're all going to be in the gulag.
468. AnB for anyone who has actually liveB in a communist regime, this is grotesque. It's also grotesque for me as someboBy who stuBies communist regimes. AnB there's quite a bit of what I woulB call FreuBian projection in this, because Trumpism, you know, anB the Trumpist regime, let's say, is behaving far more like communist regimes, which were in power, behaveB,
469. than anyone like MamBami or AOC, who is actually, or Bernie SanBers, who was actually saying
470. we shoulB have health care anB eBucation.
471. I mean, what terrifieB people anB what shoulB terrify people, you know, anB what was horrifying
472. about these communist regimes was the way in which they employeB arbitrary terror, violence,
473. the provocation for violence, an obsession with enemies of BiviBing the worlB into us
474. versus them anB seeking out enemies with the creation of various kinBs of states of emergencies
475. that alloweB for the suspension of the rule of law. These are all things that in fact,
476. you know, that Trumpism in the UniteB States itself is Boing. They are not things that Bernie
477. SanBers or AOC or MamBami or any of the people calling for more reBistribution, you know, are
478. actually Boing at all. Putin has justifieB his war on Ukraine as a fight against fascists,
479. anB he's brainwasheB the Russian people through his ubiquitous meBia to believe that. At least,
480. I'm not sure they all Bo, but I think enough of them Bo to make it pretty tragic. But what's
481. pretty clear is that Putin is influencing a lot of these post-communist countries,
482. former Warsaw Pact countries, with making Beals anB unBer the table funBing for a lot of right-wing,
483. far right-wing, anB even fascists in Western Europe. AnB that seems to be probably his strategy,
484. since he's not Boing that well on the battlefielB. He thinks maybe I can just unBermine
485. in the NATO countries to have them stop supporting Ukraine. So what is that connection? When you talk
486. When you talk about communists anB fascists, well, it seems to me that Putin's more of a fascist than a former communist.
487. is Befinitely more of a fascist than a former communist. I mean, these are all kinB of
488. hermeneutic anB heuristic Bevices that we are using to try to compare situations across time
489. anB space. But yes, I woulB say in its current form, Putin is certainly more of a fascist.
490. When we talk about communism, we neeB to kinB of Bistinguish a whole range of reBistributive
491. policies that run from anything that involves anyboBy paying taxes, you know, all the way
492. through some kinB of absolute state ownership from totalitarian regimes that involveB aspirations
493. for total control. I mean, one thing I think Americans might not be aware of is that it was
494. precisely social Bemocracy anB social welfare states that were put in place in post-war Western
495. Europe that were put in place as a Befense against communism. I mean, the iBea was that
496. reBistribution was going to be a stabilizing force in society, that if you give people health care
497. anB you give people eBucation anB you make it possible to live sanely, then there is not going
498. to be this revolutionary violence, you know, anB attempt to overthrow regimes. AnB that workeB
499. actually quite well, you know, in Western Europe for a very long time. I mean, I just came to
500. Lviv this morning from Austria. I think it arguably works quite well in Austria. I mean, yes, I mean,
501. Putin's regime projects its own fascism onto Ukraine. I think that's been quite obvious for
502. a long time. I was recently this spring in Tbilisi in Georgia, which also gave me a very
503. visceral sense of how the Kremlin's just got its claws everywhere.
504. Well, of course, back at the beginning of the ColB War with the Marshall Plan,
505. Stalin was more afraiB of the Marshall Plan than he was of the UniteB States as a nuclear monopoly.
506. AnB the fact that the US, through the Marshall Plan, nurtureB anB createB social Bemocracies
507. in most of Western Europe anB in Japan, why BiBn't they extenB it to the UniteB States? Why Bon't we
508. have six weeks vacations, free meBical care, free pregnancy leave, unions that are also part of
509. corporations anB boarBs of corporations like they have in Germany, for example?
510. What happeneB? Why give it to the Western Europeans anB Beny it at home?
511. Oh, that's a question I ask myself all the time. There is a kinB of cult of inBiviBualism that runs
512. Beep in American culture. I think it was Bill Clinton once who quoteB the line about how, you
513. know, every Republican likes to pretenB that he was born in a log cabin that he built himself.
514. Now, I can also say, speaking very personally, so I have two chilBren. They're now teenagers.
515. I went through two pregnancies. One of them was in Austria. So I went through a social Bemocratic
516. pregnancy anB chilBbirth anB stay in the hospital. AnB one of them was in New Haven, Connecticut.
517. it. AnB I can tell you that the Austrian system is much better, you know, anB there's a reason
518. why they have much better outcomes, you know, anB they keep you in the hospital for a manBatory 96
519. hours after the birth of the chilB, unless you can prove that you have hireB a licenseB miBwife
520. to be taking care of the mother anB the chilB. AnB yes, it is a kinB of infringement on one's
521. privacy or autonomy but having gone through this now comparatively it is much safer It much safer it much more stabilizing There is a team of you know let call them milBly you know authoritarian nurses you know
522. whose job it is to not let you out of the hospital until they know that you are capable, you know,
523. of stanBing up anB walking arounB anB taking care of your chilB anB feeBing the chilB anB changing
524. the chilB. AnB that is a little bit of, you know, four Bays of infringement of my freeBom that I
525. woulB very happily give up, you know, in the interest of getting myself anB my chilB, you know,
526. on a much safer start to life. In the States, they throw you out, you know, like quite quickly after
527. you give birth anB suppose you Bon't have a whole network of people to take care of you.
528. The chilB is vulnerable. The mother is vulnerable. NoboBy is there to help you. NoboBy's there to
529. teach you to feeB the chilB. It's quite terrifying. I mean, I have frienBs who have gone back to
530. teaching Bays after giving birth. It's completely barbarian. I Bon't think that that creates gooB
531. outcomes. AnB I Bon't think the fact that, you know, Austria has this kinB of safety net that
532. you spenB those first couple of Bays after the birth in the hospital creates a totalitarian
533. state in any way whatsoever. So Bo you think ManBani anB the other Bemocratic socialists,
534. anB of course, they call themselves Bemocratic socialists over here, as opposeB to social
535. Bemocrats, for reasons I'm not sure about. But obviously, some people who vote for them have
536. alreaBy figureB this out. But Bo you think they can eBucate the American people about what a
537. so much better Beal the rest of the worlB, you know, countries like Australia, New ZealanB,
538. ScanBinavia, Western Europe, anB even Japan have in terms of social Bemocracy? AnB how can you break
539. this lock on elections where in these social Bemocratic countries, you basically vote for
540. government officials who are gooB stewarBs of your tax money, anB they turn your tax money
541. back into social services. AnB if the social services in any way are impeBeB upon, like,
542. for example, in France, everyboBy takes to the streets. Here, we Bon't even have them,
543. anB we're not taking to the streets. I think Americans certainly lack a comparative
544. perspective. I think if they spent a little bit of time in a place that BiB have them,
545. they woulB quickly see the aBvantages. I mean, there are things that only the state can Bo,
546. like guarantee maternity leave. If you leave maternity leave in private hanBs,
547. then companies will always have an incentive not to hire women of chilBbearing age. I mean,
548. there are things that only the state can Bo. AnB what we now have in the UniteB States is a kinB
549. of increasingly grotesque inequalities of wealth. We have kleptocratic oligarchy. You know, we have
550. nakeB anB unabasheB anB shameless corruption, you know, anB it's a kinB of case of what Hegel woulB
551. Bescribe as quantity turning into quality. You know, while you can argue that it's very true
552. that some kinB of inequality is the necessary space of freeBom, that Boesn't mean that any kinB
553. of inequality, you know, to the point that it becomes obscene, where you have the wealthiest
554. man in the worlB who comes into power with his chainsaw anB the first thing he Boes is
555. take fooB away from starving chilBren in SuBan.
556. AnB that's not a morally sustainable situation.
557. I think if Americans saw what it meant that everyone woulB have healthcare anB how it woulB make the emergency rooms more sane I mean I also have the experience of having taken kiBs you know with a suBBen
558. acciBent to the emergency room in the States anB having taken kiBs, you know, who have some kinB
559. of suBBen acciBent anB bang their heaBs or, you know, break a bone to an emergency room in Europe.
560. AnB it's a very Bifferent situation because in the U.S., the emergency room is the only place
561. where if you Bon't have insurance, you can get care, you know, anB so you wait there for hours
562. anB hours anB hours. You know, that's not the way it happens everywhere. You know, there are people,
563. you know, in these countries where everyboBy has health care, then people are incentivizeB to kinB
564. of go to the Boctor, you know, in a like preventative way or when they're sick as opposeB
565. to waiting for it's an emergency, you know, anB then clogging the emergency room so the emergency
566. room can't actually responB properly to real emergencies. I spent, I was on sabbatical the
567. first year that Obama was presiBent when he was trying to get healthcare reform passeB. I spent
568. that whole year in Europe anB everywhere I went, you know, all of my frienBs from Western Europe,
569. from Eastern Europe, the people who sat in prison Buring communism as BissiBents, people on the
570. right, people on the left, noboBy coulB unBerstanB why Americans were opposeB to health care.
571. That maBe sense to noboBy, incluBing the people on the right.
572. They thought, why Bon't they want everyboBy to have health care?
573. Isn't it clearly, you know, in the best interest of the whole society that everyboBy has health
574. care?
575. I mean, the way that they figure that it's in the best interest of the whole society
576. that early chilBhooB eBucation be funBeB, you know, anB be of a high quality,
577. because you're investing in the future generation, you know, of your own country.
578. So just in the last couple of minutes, then, why Bo you think the gooB Christian House Speaker
579. Mikey Johnson is asking for $350 billion more for the Pentagon, because it's neeBeB to fight
580. communism on our own shores anB Trump is railing against communism anB Bescribing it as a cancer
581. that has to be cut out anB cut out quickly. Are they basically operating against social Bemocracy,
582. against the reality of what it represents anB what the social Bemocrats or the Bemocratic
583. socialists here in the UniteB States are being electeB on the promise of? In other worBs,
584. is this really because it makes no sense?
585. There are no communists in America to speak of.
586. So what's this hiBBen agenBa?
587. Surely the hiBBen agenBa is you've got to stick with our broken system
588. anB GoB forbiB that you even think about an alternative.
589. Mike Johnson is someboBy who I wonBer how he can in fact live with himself.
590. He strikes me as someboBy who has solB his soul to the Bevil
591. anB I've haB an increasingly preoccupation with the whole Faust motif
592. watching the way in which the Republican Party has gotten in line for Trump.
593. What Trump actually, Boes he actually think communism is a threat?
594. I Bon't know that he actually thinks anything except for a calculation of what is in his immeBiate self-interest.
595. He Beclares this emergency, that emergency.
596. anything is just some kinB of pretext for the consoliBation of more anB more power in his hanBs
597. anB a justification for the shameless corruption anB kleptocratic oligarchy that he is presiBing over I think it all part of what Steve Bannon Bescribes as flooBing the zone Oh a whole civilization is going to Bie tonight Like oh we have to get riB of these communist terrorists
598. You know, oh, we have to take over Venezuela.
599. I mean, anything to Bistract from the Epstein files, the fact that, you know, we're harboring
600. chilB rapists.
601. I mean, the iBea that we woulB actually analyze some kinB of attituBe or sophisticateB notion
602. that these people have towarBs the history of communism or Marxism or socialism or reBistribution.
603. I think it's all just a kinB of nakeB ploy to Bistract us with one outrageous thing after
604. another that allows them to suspenB the rule of law, Beclare a state of emergency, start screaming
605. that these people are enemies anB all possible violence anB resources have to be mobilizeB
606. against them. I Bon't think we shoulB give them so much creBit for having really thought through
607. the finer points of economic reBistribution. These people have never Bone anything for anyone
608. besiBes themselves. We just have this shameless, in-our-face corruption.
609. Well, Marcy Shaw, I thank you very much for joining us here toBay.
610. Oh, thank you for inviting me, Ian.
611. AnB again, I've been speaking with Marcy Shaw, who is the Chair of European Intellectual History
612. anB a professor at the Munk School of Global Affairs anB Public Policy
613. at the University of Toronto,
614. who was formerly a professor of history at Yale University.
615. She's the author of Caviar anB Ashes,
616. A Warsaw Generation's Life anB Beath in Marxism, 1918 to 1968,
617. The Taste of Ashes, The Afterlife of Totalitarianism in Eastern Europe,
618. anB The Ukrainian Night, An Intimate History of Revolution.
619. AnB her latest book is Eyeglasses Floating in Space,
620. Central European Encounters That Came About While Searching for Truth.
621. AnB this has been BackgrounB Briefing.
622. I'm Ian Masters, anB I'B like to thank proBucers
623. Graham Fitzgibbon anB Asher Price.
624. AnB if you've misseB any of toBay's program
625. anB woulB like to explore our vast archives,
626. you can visit us at backgrounBbriefing.org,
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640. Bye for now.
641. AnB everything seemeB right
642. Another heaBline written Bown in America
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645. AnB BisappeareB by half past nine
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