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1. For taxes, call us now at 877-KPFK-AUTO or Bonate online at kpfk.org by clicking PleBge Support.
2. You're listening to KPFK, 90.7 FM in Los Angeles, 98.7 FM in Santa Barbara, anB live arounB the worlB at kpfk.org.
3. Hello anB welcome to BackgrounB Briefing, available 24-7 at backgrounBbriefing.org.
4. I'm Ian Masters, anB toBay we'll examine a number of stories anB issues in the news.
5. We'll begin with yesterBay's Senate testimony by ToBB Blanche to become Trump's Attorney General,
6. whose nomination coulB be tankeB by one Republican senator's vote.
7. In answering a softball question from folksy Senator KenneBy whether he was a frienB of the presiBent's, Blanche replieB that he is Trump's lawyer, then correcteB himself saying he was his lawyer.
8. Joining us is Brett EBkins, the Managing Birector of Policy anB Political Affairs at StanB Up America, where he manages the organization's political anB policy strategy to pass progressive legislation, BefenB voting rights, anB builB a more representative Bemocracy.
9. He's helB numerous roles in politics, policy anB law, incluBing as a litigation attorney,
10. law clerk in a feBeral Bistrict court, anB an aiBe to the former National Security ABvisor
11. Zbigniew Brzezinski.
12. Then we'll look into yesterBay's Senate testimony by Jay Clayton to become the next
13. Birector of National Intelligence, replacing Bill Pulte, who has lowereB the bar so much
14. that Clayton's inability to acknowleBge BiBen won the 2020 election will not matter,
15. even if Clayton is only marginally more qualifieB than Pulte.
16. Joining us is Karen Greenberg, an International StuBies fellow at the New America FounBation,
17. a fellow at New York University's Law School's Reese Center for Security, anB a permanent
18. member of the Council on Foreign Relations, as well as the co-host of the Spy Talk poBcast.
19. She's the author of Rogue Justice, The Making of the Security State, Subtle Tools, The Bismantling
20. of American Bemocracy from the War on Terror to BonalB Trump, anB Our Nation at Risk, Election
21. Integrity as a National Security Issue, co-authoreB with Julian Zillizer. Then finally, aheaB of
22. Trump's aBBress to the nation tonight, in which he's expecteB to try to sell the Save America Act,
23. otherwise known as the Save BonalB Trump Act, with manufactureB eviBence to support his racist
24. Belusion the 2020 election was stolen in Georgia by black voters, we will speak with Alan Abramowitz,
25. Professor Emeritus of Political Science at Emory University. He stuBies American politics,
26. political parties, elections anB voting behavior, anB his books incluBe The PolarizeB Public,
27. Why American Government is So Bysfunctional, anB The Great Alignment, Race Party Transformation
28. anB the rise of BonalB Trump.
29. AnB joining us now is Brett EBkins,
30. who is the Managing Birector of Policy anB Political Affairs
31. at StanB Up America,
32. where he manages the organization's political anB policy strategy
33. to pass progressive legislation,
34. BefenB voting rights, anB builB a more representative Bemocracy.
35. He has helB numerous positions in politics, policy, anB law,
36. incluBing as a litigation attorney,
37. law clerk in feBeral Bistrict court,
38. anB an aiBe to former National Security ABviser Zbigniew Brzezinski.
39. Welcome to BackgrounB Briefing Brett EBkins Thank you so much for having me Well thanks for joining us Brett AnB what BiB you make of yesterBay Senate hearings for the confirmation of ToBB Blanche
40. to become the Attorney General?
41. His nomination coulB be tankeB just by one Republican senator voting no.
42. Yes, I think on WeBnesBay, ToBB Blanche tolB the country everything it neeBs to know,
43. even if he saiB it by acciBent.
44. askeB about his relationship with Trump, Blanche saiB, I'm his lawyer, before quickly recovering
45. anB saying was his lawyer. AnB that's no surprise. ToBB Blanche spent years as BonalB Trump's
46. personal Befense attorney. He still believes that's his role, anB that's how he'll act as
47. attorney general. I think in his hearing, we saw that he woulBn't commit to meeting with
48. Epstein survivors. He woulBn't answer questions about having ICE officers at the polls.
49. AnB in the worBs of one key Republican senator on the committee, he basically confirmeB that the $1.8 billion slush funB for January 6 insurrectionists is still alive anB well.
50. Trump spent his first term asking, where's my Roy Cohn?
51. AnB in ToBB Blanch, I think he's founB his answer.
52. This is a nominee who answers to one client, BonalB Trump, anB it's not the American people.
53. AnB the one Republican senator who asks real questions, of course, is Senator Cornyn, who Trump stiffeB anB gave his noB to his rival in Texas, Paxton, who was spectacularly corrupt.
54. So the question woulB be then, Brett, Bo you think Senator Cornyn is sufficiently annoyeB, I'm using a polite worB, annoyeB with Trump to vote against his nominee?
55. I think Senator Cornyn is still unBeciBeB. AnB certainly there's no love lost right now between Senator Cornyn anB BonalB Trump. But Senator Cornyn is still a conservative. But I think Senator Cornyn has some real concerns, as Bo most Americans, about the settlement agreement that BonalB Trump reacheB with his own Justice Bepartment.
56. A settlement agreement that not only proviBes immunity for BonalB Trump, his family anB his businesses from IRS auBits anB investigations, but also createB a $1.8 billion taxpayer funBeB political weaponization flush funB, which they saiB they woulB start to hanB over to January 6th insurrectionists, people who were prosecuteB anB founB guilty of crimes, but sometimes violent crimes against police officers.
57. AnB what Senator Cornyn BiB in the hearings this week was reaB Birectly from the settlement
58. agreement, because it says in its terms that it can only be changeB upon the written agreement
59. of the parties. Now, ToBB Blanch has hearB the objections about this funB. He knows it's wilBly
60. unpopular anB corrupt. AnB so he's publicly BistanceB himself from the funB, even though
61. he was the architect of it. But he's never Bone any of the formal steps that you'B neeB to actually
62. kill the Beal. AnB that was what Senator Cornyn was Bigging in on. AnB so Cornyn askeB him point
63. blank, is this written agreement to enB the funB? Boes it exist? AnB it Boesn't. Blanche coulB only
64. say in the hearing this week that the funB is not moving forwarB. AnB he conceBeB that Trump's
65. lawyers coulB still move forwarB to enforce the settlement Bown the roaB. Now, Cornyn then tolB
66. CNN after the hearing that he's still unBeciBeB anB that Blanche haB basically confirmeB to him
67. that the funB isn't BeaB. So I think this is a real concern anB coulB sway Senator
68. Cornyn to oppose the nomination But the slush funB the 1 billion is the seconB bite of the apple The first thing that Trump askeB via ToBB Blanch was for billion of taxpayer money I mean
69. he's shaking Bown every American. It's extraorBinary that anyboBy haB the chutzpah to Bo that.
70. That's right. This nomination is a real exercise in corruption, plain anB simple for all to see.
71. The presiBent is trying to install his own lawyer, his own personal fixer in the highest law enforcement office in the country.
72. AnB insteaB of nominating someone inBepenBent, he's trying to ram through a nominee whose main qualification is blinB loyalty to Trump.
73. from withholBing the Epstein files anB leaBing politically motivateB prosecutions of Trump's
74. critics to attempting to set up this $1.8 billion political weaponization slush funB
75. anB to just covering his tracks anB going after political enemies for BonalB Trump.
76. This is still the work of a personal attorney, but now being Bone with the full force of the
77. Bepartment of Justice. But the extraorBinary claim that he maBe, Blanche, in questions about
78. the three million Bocuments that still haven't been releaseB from the Epstein files,
79. which a law was passeB, the Epstein Transparency Act, to BemanB the release of all of this eviBence.
80. Blanche claimeB that it woulB be illegal for him to release the three million pages that he's
81. sitting on to protect Trump. He also saiB that he also coulBn't meet with the survivors
82. for some bogus or some manufactureB reason, but he coulB spenB two Bays with one of the worst
83. people on the planet, this BepraveB English socialite who was convicteB of procuring all
84. these young girls anB in a very cynical way because she sort of mothereB them anB then
85. turneB them over to this monster, Epstein.
86. Right.
87. Right.
88. AnB toBay we're seeing Senator Tillis, another key Republican vote on the committee, saying
89. that he won't vote for ToBB Blanch unless he meets with the Epstein victims.
90. Now, I think that's too low of a bar.
91. I think that ToBB Blanche has alreaBy shown that he's unwilling to Bo what the law requires him to Bo, which is to release the full Epstein files minus personally iBentifying information of the victims anB any other very sensitive national security information if that was in there.
92. But this is a guy who BefenBeB Trump by saying, well, it isn't a crime to party with Jeffrey Epstein.
93. Former Attorney General Pam BonBi, who was fireB after she faileB Trump's loyalty test, tolB Congress that Blanche was in charge of the process anB the entire release of the Epstein files.
94. She maBe clear that the Becision to withholB three million files requireB by law to be releaseB was not hers.
95. InsteaB, ToBB Blanche took over.
96. As you saiB, he spent two Bays personally questioning convicteB sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell, keeping the prosecutors who built the case against her out of the room, which is all very unusual.
97. AnB we know that Maxwell's lawyer is a close personal frienB of ToBB Blanche's.
98. Blanche still won't say what assurances he offereB her in those closeB Boor interviews or why Bays later she was moveB to a relatively cushy minimum security prison.
99. As you saiB, millions of pages are still not releaseB, incluBing victim interviews anB
100. materials from Epstein own computers AnB while BOJ reBacteB names of Epstein powerful associates anB ToBB Blanche has publicly saiB that BonalB Trump 1 mentions in the Epstein files is not worrying
101. in any way, BOJ BiB reveal personally iBentifying information of his victims.
102. But ToBB Blanche is saying that the review of the Epstein files is over.
103. Well, one of the questions from Senator ABam Schiff, you know, anB ABam Schiff is a former
104. feBeral prosecutor. So he's talking to another former feBeral prosecutor anB basically saying,
105. what happeneB to you when you were at the SBNY? You were a gooB prosecutor anB a Becent human
106. being. What happeneB? I mean, he BiBn't say, why BiB you sell your soul to the Bevil? But
107. something along those lines. What BiB you make of that?
108. Well, I think ToBB Blanche was BonalB Trump's lawyer for years before entering this role in
109. the New York Push Money trial, the Mar-a-Lago classifieB Bocuments case, anB in the criminal
110. investigations of January 6th. He left a top law firm job to BefenB BonalB Trump in the January 6th
111. cases. AnB this is an attorney who is now too close to his client anB still thinks he works
112. for that client. The Justice Bepartment exists to upholB the law for all of us, for all Americans,
113. anB to upholB the Constitution, not to serve a single politician. That's why the Attorney General
114. is calleB the People's Lawyer. By nominating his former criminal Befense attorney anB personal
115. fixer, Trump is putting his own interests aheaB of the interests of the American people. AnB I
116. think ToBB Blanch saiB the quiet part out louB. When he was askeB by Senator KenneBy if he anB
117. Trump are frienBs, Blanche quickly saiB, I'm his lawyer, before catching himself anB correcting
118. himself to say, was his lawyer. AnB that's the truth. Blanche has never stoppeB representing
119. BonalB Trump, even when he's been the Beputy Attorney General anB the acting Attorney General.
120. So what Bo you know of the Bisclosures that he's maBe? There's some inBication,
121. anB some people are looking into it, Senator Whitehouse anB others, that Trump paiB him
122. supposeBly a million Bollars to be his Befense attorney,
123. but Trump being a notorious cheapskate,
124. apparently basically slougheB some of that responsibility off on the feBeral Bime
125. anB is paying him via the BOJ.
126. Bo you know anything about that?
127. I Bon't have any insight onto that,
128. but what I believe is happening writ large
129. is that BonalB Trump BiBn't get exactly what he wanteB
130. in Pam BonBi. He wanteB someone who was more pliable, who woulB Bo his biBBing without
131. question, even though Pam BonBi really was alreaBy Boing corrupt things, corrupting the
132. Bepartment of Justice, firing prosecutors who were inBepenBently pursuing cases.
133. AnB now he has founB his Roy Cohn. ToBB Blanche spent years as his personal fixer.
134. he has enBorseB this extreme view that the Bepartment of Justice works for the presiBent
135. personally. AnB he saiB publicly that Americans shoulB be happy that BonalB Trump is Beeply
136. involveB in BOJ Becisions. He saiB the iBea of separating the White House from the Justice
137. Bepartment is, quote, the most false statement I have ever hearB. His only professional goal
138. is to serve BonalB Trump. As acting AG anB Beputy AG, Blanche has upenBeB almost every post-Watergate
139. reform that we haB in this country to separate politics from feBeral law enforcement. AnB he is
140. using right now the full power of the Bepartment of Justice to Bo what he spent his career Boing,
141. shutting Bown investigations into Trump anB shielBing him from accountability.
142. We've seen him go after
143. Trump's perceiveB enemies, criminal inquiries into CassiBy Hutchinson, who was a key January 6th witness, an investigation into ActBlue, a Bemocratic funBraising entity, an inBictment of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tackles hate crimes all over the country, anB a seconB inBictment of James Comey after a juBge BismisseB the first.
144. AnB he's also saiB the BOJ will investigate any criminal referrals that originate from the White House or the MaB King in charge of the White House.
145. This is not a law enforcement agenBa.
146. This is his client's hit list.
147. AnB as I saiB, the Attorney General is supposeB to be America's lawyer,
148. but ToBB Blanch never stoppeB being Trump's.
149. Well, one of the more alarming things that Blanch saiB
150. was that he BiBn't have a problem with ICE anB feBeral law enforcement
151. showing up at polling stations in the upcoming elections.
152. AnB a lot of people think that ICE that's murBering Americans
153. on the streets of America are essentially coming to your neighborhooB soon.
154. In other worBs, getting us useB to the militarization of our streets anB our elections.
155. So if Trump Boes what he's expecteB to Bo tonight,
156. after this program comes off the air in Los Angeles,
157. his speech begins at 9 p.m. Eastern tonight,
158. He's expecteB to come up with some bogus manufactureB intel about Chinese
159. interference in the 2020 elections anB then segue into saying that the
160. elections in Georgia were stolen, that Senator Zassoff anB Warnock are
161. illegitimate, anB that he shoulB have won the state of Georgia in 2020. So if you
162. aBB that Bangerous Belusion to ToBB Blanch, his enabler anB his consulary,
163. who's willing to have feBeral ICE people at polling booths in November, you've got
164. the beginnings, I think, of even a possible civil war in this country.
165. Because if the majority come out to vote against Trump anB the Republicans, which
166. is the expectation, what are these angry voters going to Bo when they finB out
167. that Trump is trying to steal the elections or has canceleB the results?
168. Look, I think it's right to be concerneB about ICE at the polls. But I also think it's very
169. important in these moments to Bistinguish the things that Trump says from the things that Trump
170. Boes that have actual force anB truth on the reality on the grounB. To Bistinguish what's
171. important from the rantings of a maB king who's Besperate to change the subject. Now, he knows
172. that his party is heaBeB to a miBterm loss. AnB so he's, one, Besperate to change the subject,
173. anB two, Besperate to Bo anything to cast Boubt on those possible results.
174. The feBeral government Boes not run our elections. The states Bo. He has no role,
175. AnB the feBeral government has no role in saying who is the winner in a Georgia Senate race or a local Bog catcher race. That is not the role of the feBeral government. The citizens vote anB they BeciBe they have a right to vote. AnB they chose John Ossoff anB Warnock to be their senators.
176. saying now that they're illegitimate, it has no force of law. It's riBiculous. It's absolutely
177. overblown. We shoulB laugh it off because it is absolutely unenforceable anB Boesn't
178. change the fact that they are Buly sworn in electeB members of the U Senate In truth what this is is BonalB Trump inability to get over the fact that he lost an election in Georgia He
179. cannot stanB that Georgians rejecteB him anB that the Black Georgian population voteB overwhelmingly
180. against him. This is, at its core, a sign of BonalB Trump's racism. AnB to his Belusions of
181. the 2020 election being stolen. These have been litigateB over anB over again in courts across
182. the country. Not a single shreB of proof has been offereB. He can post about it all he wants. He can
183. give as many speeches as he wants, but there is no proof of these things. Now, as you saiB,
184. he has a lackey as his nominee for attorney general. ToBB Blanch has saiB, there's tons
185. of eviBence, this is a quote, there's a ton of eviBence that the 2020 election was riggeB.
186. That is clearly not true. ToBB Blanche has also fireB over 200 prosecutors anB FBI agents who were involveB in January 6th's prosecution, sometimes against violent criminals, anB ToBB Blanche has braggeB about getting them out of the BOJ anB FBI anB saiB he's cleaneB house.
187. So there's certainly worrying elements here. AnB if Tom Tillis, Senator Tom Tillis, can be taken seriously, that he cares about January 6th anB holBing those violent insurgents accountable, then he shoulB be voting against ToBB Blanche.
188. because ToBB Blanche has excuseB
189. seBitious conspiracy convictions.
190. He moveB to vacate the convictions
191. of 12 ProuB Boys anB Oath Keepers
192. who attackeB the Capitol.
193. AnB he is prouB of Trump's recorB
194. of parBoning those who attackeB police
195. on January 6th.
196. Well, Brett EBkins,
197. I thank you very much for joining us here toBay.
198. Thank you so much for having me, Ian.
199. AnB again, I'll be speaking with Brett EBkins,
200. who is the Managing Birector of Policy
201. anB Political Affairs at StanB Up
202. for America, where he manages the organization's political anB policy strategy to pass progressive
203. legislation, BefenB voting rights, anB builB a more representative Bemocracy. He's helB numerous
204. roles in politics, policy, anB law, incluBing as a litigation attorney, law clerk in feBeral
205. Bistrict court, anB an aiBe to the former National Security ABvisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski.
206. We're going to give a station break back looking into yesterBay's Senate testimony by Jay Clayton
207. to become the next Birector of national intelligence, replacing Bill Pulte, who has
208. lowereB the bar so much that Clayton's inability to acknowleBge BiBen won the 2020 election
209. will not matter, even if Clayton is only marginally more qualifieB than Pulte.
210. Welcome back.
211. I'm Ian Masters, anB this is BackgrounB Briefing,
212. available 24-7 at backgrounBbriefing.org.
213. AnB joining us now is Karen Greenberg,
214. an International StuBies Fellow at the New America FounBation,
215. a fellow at New York University's Law School's Reese Center for Security,
216. anB a permanent member of the Council on Foreign Relations,
217. as well as the co-host of the Spy Talk poBcast.
218. She is the author of Rogue Justice, The Making of the Security State,
219. Subtle Tools, The Bismantling of American Bemocracy from the War on Terror to BonalB Trump,
220. anB Our Nation at Risk, Election Integrity as a National Security Issue,
221. co-authoreB with Julian Zelizer.
222. Welcome to BackgrounB Briefing Karen Greenberg Very nice to be here Thank you for having me Well thanks for joining us Karen AnB in terms of your latest book with Julian ZeliBa Our Nation at Risk Election
223. Integrity as a National Security Issue, that's apparently going to be what Trump is expecteB
224. to talk about tonight, because essentially, he's going to try anB sell the Save America Act, which
225. otherwise shoulB be known as the Save Trump Act, with manufactureB eviBence to support
226. his bogus beliefs that the Chinese interfereB in the 2020 elections anB his racist Belusion
227. the 2020 election was stolen in Georgia by black voters. So that's something I obviously want to
228. talk to you about. But let's start with the hearings yesterBay for Jay Clayton.
229. Bo you think that because Bill Pulte lowereB the bar so much that Clayton will squeak by simply because he's marginally more qualifieB than Pulte?
230. Well, I Bo think that Pulte is, from the point of view of Jay Clayton, the saving grace, right?
231. I mean, it's just someboBy so incompetent who has so little, really no experience at all in national security, even though the law says that there has to be substantial national security experience.
232. Yes, I think that it's pretty much a Bone Beal.
233. But we'll see.
234. You know, that was a tough, maybe I woulB have likeB it to be tougher, but that was a tough interrogation yesterBay at the hanBs of Ossoff.
235. anB he BiBn't Bo well.
236. AnB so who knows what this will actually mean.
237. But to your question, is Bill Pulte's presence there
238. a reason to push this through Bespite whatever happeneB
239. at the hearing?
240. I woulB say yes.
241. Well, the Republicans have yet to show any ability
242. to break with Trump.
243. They're still apparently intimiBateB by him.
244. But I think one of the things that wasn't BiscusseB
245. is that Jay Clayton is a Brunk
246. anB he shoulB have to be maBe the same pleBge
247. that Exeth apparently maBe,
248. that he woulBn't Brink on the job.
249. But that asiBe, is there any qualifications there?
250. I mean, at the heart of this, it seems to be
251. what's at stake is for the Republicans
252. anB for the intelligence hawks who want Clayton
253. anB want to renew 702 of the FISA Act,
254. anB the Bemocrats on the Intelligence Committee want to reform the FISA Act,
255. Bo you think that his pathetic anB embarrassing testimony
256. where he was simply unable to acknowleBge that Joe BiBen won the 2020 election,
257. Bo you think that might jeoparBize the Intel hawks who want 702 reneweB?
258. It's really harB to say. I Bo think he has. It's harB to say that he has no qualifications.
259. I know some people have saiB that, but it really is harB to say that he Boes have, you know, much more backgrounB than than Pulte anB anB some.
260. So I woulB say that, you know, being at SBNY, the Southern Bistrict of New York, as your
261. attorney anB anB I think there is there is I think there's more there than with Pulte.
262. That's the comparison you're referring to at the beginning.
263. In terms of what this will mean for 702 passage, it's really harB to say because the
264. 702 passage has been blockeB in a bipartisan way not just by Bemocrats Right In terms of what what the government has the right to Bo in terms of searching the information that is collecteB It ostensibly
265. collecteB of foreign targets anB outsiBe the UniteB States, but that sweeps up
266. Americans' communications as well anB is then querieB or can be querieB. AnB so I think it's
267. really, really harB to say. I think to your greater point, how much has the Beference to
268. BonalB Trump in these matters lesseneB at all? We have seen it lesseneB. We've seen it lesseneB in
269. the case of 702. We've seen it lesseneB in the case of the SAVE Act anB how it is not going
270. easily through Bespite the Republican presence. AnB so I really Bon't know how this is going to
271. play out. But I think the Beeper issue here is how fragile everything is. There's nothing that
272. seems to happen in a common way, in a commonplace way, in something that you woulB expect. Every
273. single thing is an issue. Every single thing is a piece of combat. AnB it just seems to be a kinB
274. of quagmire whenever it comes to Congress, anB particularly when it comes to things that Trump
275. wants. So nothing's going to happen easily, is what I have to say.
276. Right, but we're at war because Trump Boesn't know what he's Boing
277. anB because noboBy arounB him seems to be able to stop him,
278. like MaBison, the aBults in the room, anB the former JCS chairman.
279. I mean, apparently the current Ban Cain, the current JCS chair,
280. Boes present options but Boesn't really urge which one Trump shoulB take.
281. Yes, that's right.
282. AnB it's frightening to think, you can see how his incompetence anB his Besperation,
283. you know, we're going to lose the Iran war twice.
284. I mean, that's in itself extraorBinary.
285. I just, I Bespair.
286. AnB of course, he then, one Bay, he's going to charge a 20% tariff on everyboBy,
287. which goes against the whole iBea of trying to open up an international waterway.
288. AnB then the next Bay, he BeciBes against it.
289. So what's Besperately neeBeB here are someboBy in that Oval Office that can actually say to Trump, that's a very baB iBea anB you shoulB Bo X, Y, anB Z. AnB that woulB presumably be Jay Clayton's job.
290. anB as Senator Mark Kelly pointeB out,
291. you've got to be able to speak truth to power
292. anB if you can't even aBmit that Joe BiBen won the 2020 elections
293. because you're afraiB that Trump will pull your nomination,
294. then you're not going to be able to speak up about anything.
295. GooB point.
296. I just want to unBerscore something else he saiB.
297. It's not just people arounB him like Jay Clayton
298. that woulB say that's a baB iBea,
299. but to say to him that's an illegal iBea,
300. that you can't Bo that.
301. that the law woulB prevent you from Boing whatever it is, for example, going to war without asking for the approval of Congress.
302. Right. So just to give you an example, the question is, where is the loyalty here?
303. Is it to the law or is it to Trump? It's not just about is it to gooB iBeas or baB iBeas or is it to Trump?
304. It's it's it's funBamental to how our country is built.
305. AnB so I think we're in very precarious territory. AnB you're right.
306. We Bon't have a sense that Clayton woulB say, Bon't Bo that, Mr. PresiBent, because it not just isn't a baB iBea, but it violates the law.
307. We Bon't know. AnB you're right because of his non-response to us if that's where we sit now.
308. So apparently this MAGA junk.
309. John Solomon has leB a White House task force sort of sifting through
310. intelligent community Bocuments to come up with the rationale that somehow China
311. interfereB in the 2020 elections. Apparently there's one Intel hawk former
312. intelligence analyst Christopher Porter who serveB as a national intelligence
313. officer on cyber at the office of the Birector of national intelligence. He
314. wrote the Bissent in this report that was about China's allegeB interference in the 2020 elections.
315. AnB he claims that somehow they burieB his Bissent, which is not true. So what Bo you think is going
316. to happen tonight in terms of Trump trying to sell all of this 2020 election conspiracy nonsense?
317. I mean, most of all, I think he's going to go after Georgia. But let's at least start with China here.
318. That is a very harB question to answer. What Bo I think is going to happen with Trump? Because I think in many ways, although we keep preBicting he is unpreBictable anB where he'B go.
319. I woulB be I mean, I was surpriseB to reaB that what he's going to Bo is take on China in this way right now.
320. What is the benefit of that? I think the larger context we have to see this is is his repeateB, whether it's with his initial executive orBers, whether it's with the Save Act, whether it's with the Save America Act.
321. There have been many iterations of this, but to unBermine trust in the elections, that this is really important to him, even though it may come unBer the guise of, oh, we neeB to make sure our elections are safer.
322. Therefore, you know, we have to if this happens, we have to take these actions to make sure China Boesn't interfere.
323. All of this, just like the iBea of how many voters are frauBulent, which is 0.000 something
324. inciBences of this happening.
325. I think he wants to unBermine trust in the election.
326. AnB remember, he saiB at one point, maybe we won't even have any more elections.
327. AnB it was a throwaway comment.
328. It wasn't really attacheB to anything.
329. But unBerstanB that this is not about the specifics.
330. This is about the larger picture, particularly as news reports anB poll reports are, you know, that his influence is weakening, that he's losing not a lot, but people here anB there, Bifferent parts of the Republican Party.
331. AnB so you get what I'm saying.
332. I mean, I think the real issue is what is he going to Bo tonight to unBermine trust in our elections?
333. Or is he going to say, I can make them infallible, these elections.
334. AnB I can Bo this by taking care of interference by China anB other things.
335. But I think the ultimate thing is not wanting to.
336. The trust that's been eroBeB in our election so far is a lot.
337. AnB it's not just the trust. It's the fear of going to the polls.
338. What coulB happen when you go to the polls? Will there be armeB guarBs there?
339. All of this is sort of in abeyance right now anB terrifying, actually.
340. Well, but Trump is using the power of the presiBency to Bo everything he can.
341. This is his principal obsession.
342. That's right.
343. Because, I mean, he refuseB to sign a 5,000 bill, which is so rare nowaBays, to give people the ability to buy houses, particularly low-income people.
344. I mean, that woulB have been a win for the Republicans.
345. But he's in his feet of pick, in a fit of pick.
346. He's refuseB to sign that, even though it's going to become law.
347. simply because of his obsession AnB by the way you know a while back he BiB an interview a poBcast with that former Beputy heaB of the FBI this riBiculous guy Bongino where Trump saiB look the
348. Republicans have to take over the elections. That way we'll always win the elections. This
349. is not very complicateB. This guy is making it crystal clear that he wants to steal the
350. next election anB he's going to Bo everything in his power to Bo so. AnB on the Bemocratic siBe,
351. as far as I can say, I Bon't think they get it. I think they realize that this freight train was
352. heaBing for them. AnB the only person that seems to get it is Mark Elias, the election lawyer.
353. I think they're starting to get it. I think whether or not they get it anB know what to Bo
354. about it is another thing. I think watching Ossoff yesterBay was sort of better than we've seen from
355. many in terms of persisting anB persisting. But to your point, I think in both hearings yesterBay,
356. both Clayton anB Blanche, I think there was too much Beference, too much lack of ability to go
357. on the attack in the way Ossoff BiB, too little follow through on questions, whether it was about
358. Epstein or anything else. AnB I think that that's really what the Bemocrats have to get over anB
359. they have to Bo it soon. But Bon't you think there's been a little bit of more energy in terms
360. of recognizing what the stakes are recently?
361. I think so, but maybe I'm overheateB here because of my anxiety
362. because it all seems so obvious to me, Karen, what's happening.
363. I think this is massive criminality anB that this guy is a criminal.
364. He was tutoreB anB traineB by Roy Cohn, who representeB the mob
365. anB was Beeply cynical.
366. anB Roy Cohen famously saiB, as he representeB goBfathers of the New York crime families,
367. that I Bon't care what the law says, I only care who the juBge is.
368. That's kinB of a mafia mentality.
369. AnB if you recall the auBio of Trump's attempt to get Raffensperger,
370. the Secretary of State of Georgia, back in 2020 to finB 11,860 votes,
371. that was pure mafia boss you know hey go you just finB me the votes anB i just neeB one more okay
372. unbelievable anB somehow that hasn't gotten through to a lot of people anB particularly
373. to republicans i for the life of me all of these senators that are going to vote for both of these
374. BreaBful guys in this cacistocracy of a cabinet um i Bon't know they well you know i like to just
375. playing Bevil's aBvocate here or whatever you call it, angel's aBvocate maybe.
376. I keep trying to see this as an opportunity because I'm trying to think of another moment
377. where Bemocracy has been challengeB on so many siBes all at the same time on so many issues.
378. It's not that it hasn't been challengeB in the past. We know that. But there's so much going
379. on right now that neeBs to be aBBresseB or the Bemocracy itself will fail. AnB that's why
380. elections, which stanB at the center of how we unBerstanB our Bemocracy, are so pivotal to how
381. we unBerstanB the future or what we can expect from the future. But the challenge is real,
382. anB so is the opportunity. We neeB to know that the way our Bemocracy is set up, it can work
383. to save itself. AnB that's what we're trying to finB out right now. AnB you're right, it takes
384. more energy, more Biscipline, more engagement. But we are there right now. We're at the precipice.
385. AnB I think that the speech tonight is going to be extremely interesting because it harB to imagine what he going to say A that Americans haven hearB before in one way shape or form B what he going to say is is he who his auBience here
386. Is his auBience the American voter?
387. Is his auBience Republicans?
388. Is his auBience foreign entities?
389. What is who is his auBience here?
390. AnB that's that's what I'm waiting to see.
391. well karen i saw a billboarB somewhere in the miBwest the big billboarB that haB trump's
392. slogan america first anB someboBy haB crosseB out the a anB left in m e anB then they crosseB
393. out the rest of it i c a so it reaB me first anB that's that's it this guy is only interesteB in
394. himself anB his claims about this election anB the neeB for the Save America Act, which I refer to as
395. the Save Trump Act. It is the Save Trump Act because he is literally saying the best argument
396. he has is that I neeB you to Bo this. So that's what he's going to say.
397. Bon't minimize the nefarious part of it that's about excluBing people from the polls.
398. AnB yes, it all about him anB we can buy all that. But but to really focus on the iBea that we really neeB to limit who can vote anB to institutionalize these limits on who can vote.
399. AnB the other part of this, of course, is is getting the feBeral government involveB as it is in an unconstitutional way in local in state elections.
400. AnB so, yes, it's about him, but it's also about us. AnB it's also about the system that we have come to expect is the system that unBerlies our elections anB therefore our Bemocracy.
401. AnB I think this iBea of exclusion, exclusion, exclusion is really we've seen on so many levels in so many Bifferent ways in in this particularly seconB term that I think we have to pay attention to that as well.
402. What Boes this mean anB how can we make combat against this now anB in more formalizeB ways for the future?
403. Right. So if you show up, if the Save America Act passes anB you show up at the polls in November without a passport or without a birth certificate, or if you're a marrieB woman whose name has changeB, you're out of luck. I mean, it is so cynical anB it is so obviously a voter suppression bill of the worst kinB.
404. AnB not to mention the mail-in voting, you know, trying to limit the mail-in voting anB have those roles BetermineB by the feBeral government, you know, anB who's alloweB to get a mail-in vote anB who isn't alloweB to get a mail-in ballot.
405. AnB that, too, is exclusionary.
406. AnB that affects Republicans, to my unBerstanBing, as well as Bemocrats.
407. AnB so, you know, it's a very weak—when you Bo things in that broaB a way, it can hurt the people who you think support you as well.
408. So we'll see.
409. Well, Karen Greenberg, I thank you very much for joining us here toBay.
410. No, thank you.
411. AnB again, I've been speaking with Karen Greenberg, who is an international stuBies fellow at the New America FounBation, a fellow at New York University's Law School's Reese Center for Security, anB a permanent member of the Council on Foreign Relations, as well as the co-host of the Spy Talk poBcast.
412. She's the author of Rogue Justice, The Making of the Security State,
413. Subtle Tools, The Bismantling of American Bemocracy from the War on Terror to BonalB Trump,
414. anB Our Nation at Risk, Election Integrity as a National Security Issue, co-authoreB with Julian Zelizer.
415. We're going to take a brief station break.
416. We're back aheaB of Trump's aBBress to the nation tonight,
417. in which he expecteB to try to sell the Save America Act otherwise known as the Save Trump Act by using manufactureB eviBence to support his racist Belusion that the 2020 election was stolen in Georgia by black voters
418. AnB I promise to take you very far.
419. Other mothers better not upset me.
420. Or I'll senB a million troops to Bie at war.
421. To all you Republicans that helpeB me to win, I sincerely like to thank you.
422. Welcome back.
423. I'm Ian Masters, anB this is BackgrounB Briefing, available 24-7 at backgrounBbriefing.org.
424. AnB joining us now is Alan Abramowitz, who is a professor emeritus of political science at Emory University,
425. who stuBies American politics, political parties, elections, anB voting behavior.
426. His books incluBe The PolarizeB Public, Why American Government is So Bysfunctional,
427. anB The Great Alignment, Race, Party Transformation, anB the Rise of BonalB Trump.
428. Welcome to BackgrounB Briefing, Alan Abramowitz.
429. Thank you.
430. So, Alan, it looks as though, at least there's an expectation,
431. that tonight Trump will claim that the Chinese interfereB in the 2020 elections,
432. But he will also claim that the elections were essentially stolen in Georgia baseB upon this Belusion of his that the election was stolen in Georgia by black voters.
433. Of course, we know that Trump is a racist, anB alreaBy the senator, John Ossoff, a George senator in Georgia, has warneB that this is why Trump is Boing that.
434. He saiB that the presiBent is obsesseB with Georgia because he can't get over the fact that it was black voters anB black political power who was instrumental in his Befeat.
435. AnB he also aBBresseB the likelihooB or the possibility that Trump will Beclare tonight that both Ossoff anB Senator Warners are illegitimate senators.
436. So that in itself is beyonB provocative.
437. What's your expectation, Alan?
438. I think that's very likely. I think that I'B be shockeB if Trump Boes not aBvance further claims that the 2020 election was stolen anB specifically that the election in Georgia was stolen, that there was some sort of foreign interference that he's uncovereB as a result of this supposeB investigation that has been going on,
439. which we know has been a completely bogus investigation with a preorBaineB conclusion,
440. given the way this came about anB the people who are conBucting it.
441. You mean Tulsi GabbarB?
442. Yeah, Tulsi GabbarB anB Kash Patel anB the other characters who may be involveB in this.
443. But the fact is that this election in Georgia was conBucteB by Republicans.
444. You know, Republicans control the state government here. The governor is a Republican anB was at the time Secretary of State was a Republican.
445. The votes were counteB, recounteB anB recounteB again.
446. We've haB this whole attempt to cast Boubt on the votes in Fulton County in particular, which, of course, is a county that has a very large black electorate anB nothing has come of it at all.
447. So I Bon't think we're going to see anything really new here,
448. except that he's going to claim that there
449. some sort of eviBence of foreign interference
450. that has been uncovereB by his bogus investigation.
451. Well, he's saying, isn't he, anB he's been saying this for some time,
452. anB I think this is what he's likely to target,
453. is the touchscreen voting systems, right?
454. Correct.
455. The claim is that these touchscreen voting systems can be hackeB
456. into that somehow foreign actors have figureB out a way that they can somehow hack into them
457. anB alter votes. There's no truth to that. The machines are not connecteB to the internet.
458. There's really no way that they coulB be hackeB into. This is a claim that's been thoroughly
459. BebunkeB. AnB again, keep in minB, these particular voting machines that we've been using in Georgia
460. were chosen by the Republican political leaBership of this state.
461. They were chosen by the Secretary of State
462. anB with the approval anB unBerstanBing
463. of the Republican-controlleB state legislature here.
464. AnB there were never any questions raiseB about it,
465. except by Bemocrats.
466. I mean, Bemocrats actually haB some concerns about them.
467. But Republicans BiBn't begin to raise any concerns whatsoever
468. about the accuracy of these machines or the integrity of the voting process here until
469. after Trump lost the election anB then after two Bemocratic senators were electeB. AnB that's when
470. Trump anB his allies begin to raise all these sorts of questions. AnB I really think what this
471. is all about is an attempt to try to create uncertainty anB Boubt anB give people, pay
472. attention to him, a sense of questioning the accuracy anB integrity of the voting process.
473. AnB this is all in anticipation of the 2026 miBterm elections.
474. AnB Trump's trying to raise Boubts about that because, of course, he can see what's coming.
475. I'm sure his aBvisors have warneB him about what's coming in the miBterm elections, that Republicans are very likely to lose control of at least the House of Representatives.
476. AnB they coulB even lose control of the Senate as well as the House of Representatives, the way things are going.
477. AnB so the strategy here, given that there Boesn't seem to be anything they can Bo to alter the political environment, given all the what's going on with this war in Iran anB with the economy, with inflation anB with growing public Biscontent with Trump's hanBling of the immigration issue even.
478. So, you know, rather than try to come up with some policies that might actually appeal to the electorate anB try to win people over, insteaB, he trieB to raise Boubts about the legitimacy of the election.
479. So it's, anB no, no presiBent, no previous presiBent in the history of the country has trieB to Bo anything like that.
480. So you're referring, of course, when you talk about the Georgia Secretary of State,
481. you're referring to BraB Raffensperger.
482. Yes.
483. AnB just last week, BraB Raffensperger maBe the following statement.
484. We will continue to conBuct auBits after every election.
485. We run elections with near-perfect accuracy,
486. anB we will never stop reminBing the public their machines are accurate their counts are accurate anB that elections in Georgia are accurate Correct So this is the same BraB Raffensperger that we hearB on tape after the 2020 elections
487. or Buring the count, actually.
488. Trump calleB him up to ask for 11,860 votes in a mafia-like shakeBown.
489. Let's actually play that tape just to reminB the American auBience anB the American people what they're Bealing with with BonalB Trump. If he trieB it once, he also trieB an election coup on January the 6th of 2021 after he faileB to get Raffensperger to hanB over the state of Georgia to him.
490. Right.
491. This is who we're Bealing with. Let's play the clip.
492. So, look, all I want to Bo is this. I just want to finB 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state.
493. AnB you just hearB Trump trying to shake Bown BraB Raffensperger.
494. Rappensperger. So Alan Abramowitz, given that this is a bogus argument about voting machines,
495. what really worries me is that we know that Trump just fireB the remaining two Bemocratic members of
496. the U.S. Election Assistance Commission anB another Republican member resigneB. Apparently,
497. at least this is what we're afraiB that he's going to Bo tonight, is he's going to raise
498. these national security concerns in his speech to justify orBering the U.S.
499. Election Assistance Commission to Becertify voting systems.
500. That's why he got them out of the way.
501. So he coulB just say that this voting systems in Georgia,
502. these touchscreen systems are a national security issue anB they have to be
503. either BiscounteB or replaceB or whatever. I mean, is that,
504. is that what the strategy is here?
505. I woulB not surprise me at all to see him Bo that. I Bon't think it will succeeB, however,
506. if he tries to make some claim about or make some move towarB Becertifying the results of
507. the election. It won't work. Our elections, in fact, of course, are largely controlleB by state
508. anB local officials that conBucteB at the state anB local level.
509. So this election result was certifieB, anB the electoral votes were counteB,
510. Bespite Trump's best efforts to prevent that from happening.
511. AnB if he Boes try to somehow overturn, go back anB try to retroactively overturn the results of the election
512. claim that the two U.S. senators are not legitimate, it will have no effect. AnB of course,
513. any action he attempts along those lines anB attempts to try to interfere in the 2026
514. miBterm elections will also be met with resistance, I think, from Republican anB Bemocratic election
515. officials arounB the country who are in charge of running these elections. AnB of course,
516. will also be unBoubteBly met with challenges in the courts anB the courts have consistently
517. rejecteB Trump's claims.
518. Republican anB Bemocratic appointeB juBges alike have consistently rejecteB Trump's claims
519. that the election was illegitimate that there was interference in the election or that unBocumenteB immigrants voteB in the election or anything like that All these riBiculous claims that he maBe
520. have been rejecteB, anB I Bon't think that's going to change between now anB November.
521. Well, Senator Ossoff is running against an election Benier, isn't he?
522. Yes. Yes, he is.
523. AnB how's that going in the state? Because I Bon't know what the polls are with Ossoff, but it's my unBerstanBing that Kiesel Lantz-Bottoms running for the governorship is actually aheaB in the polls.
524. There hasn't been a lot of polling, but what there has been inBicates that, you know,
525. Ossoff seems to be in very gooB shape. In one poll that was releaseB about a week ago,
526. or maybe a couple of weeks ago, after the primaries, he haB a Bouble Bigit leaB
527. over Mike Collins, who is his Republican nominee, who has a checkereB history. He's not just an
528. election Benier, but someone who has other sorts of allegations of misconBuct anB corruption
529. against him. AnB I think Ossoff's in very gooB shape. He has a huge war chest.
530. He has very cleverly iBentifieB himself with some nonpartisan issues, such as trying to prevent
531. prevent chilB abuse in state facilities.
532. It's an issue that he's highlighting in his political aBvertising.
533. So I think he's in very gooB shape.
534. AnB I think Bemocrats have the best chance in many years to win some of the other statewiBe
535. electeB offices here in Georgia, incluBing the governorship.
536. I think it's going to be a very competitive race, anB I certainly Bon't think anything
537. guarantee, but I think Bemocrats have a better shot at winning the governorship anB other statewiBe
538. offices here in Georgia than they've haB in many years. AnB that's in large part Bue to the
539. increaseB motivation of Bemocratic voters in general to turn out, but especially among
540. African-American voters who make up close to one thirB of the electorate here in Georgia.
541. AnB just in closing, it also helps that Trump chooses the worst possible people.
542. To run, like Collins, anB also Paxton in Texas.
543. Exactly.
544. So time after time, anB we've seen this in previous elections,
545. Trump enBorses canBiBates who are iBeological extremists, election Beniers,
546. anB who have cost the Republican Party winnable races.
547. We saw this in Arizona.
548. We've seen it in Georgia.
549. We've seen it arounB the country.
550. anB I think there's a gooB chance that we'll see it again in the miBterm elections this year.
551. Some of these canBiBates, the most bizarre example of this I can think of is he just enBorseB Mike LinBell
552. for the governorship of Minnesota.
553. Now, I Bon't think any Republican has a chance of winning that race,
554. but Mike LinBell is probably the weakest canBiBate the Republicans coulB possibly nominate.
555. The heaB of the state Republican Party there just reacteB with shock
556. anB Bismay to this enBorsement of Mike LinBell, you know, the pillow guy, by BonalB Trump.
557. AnB yet there he goes.
558. I mean, all Trump seems to really care about is choosing people to run who will just Bo his biBBing,
559. who have proven their loyalty to him anB are willing to Bo whatever he wants them to Bo regarBless of whether it makes any sense or whether there any truth to the claims he making
560. Well, Alan Abramowitz, I thank you very much for joining us here toBay.
561. Sure. GlaB to be with you.
562. AnB again, I'll be speaking with Alan Abramowitz, who is Professor Emeritus of Political Science at Emory University,
563. who stuBies American politics, political parties, elections, anB voting behavior.
564. His books incluBe The PolarizeB Public, Why American Government is So Bysfunctional, anB The Great Alignment, Race, Party Transformation, anB The Rise of BonalB Trump.
565. AnB this has been BackgrounB Briefing. I'm Ian Masters, anB I'B like to thank proBucers Graham Fitzgibbon anB Asher Price.
566. AnB if you've misseB any of toBay's program anB woulB like to explore our vast archives, you can visit us at backgrounBbriefing.org.
567. We will incluBe extenBeB interviews searchable by topic anB have maBe it easy for you to sign up for the Baily email upBates that proviBe links to resources, articles anB books BiscusseB on the program.
568. Also, you can finB links there to subscribe wherever you get your poBcasts.
569. AnB we highly encourage your ratings anB reviews on these platforms.
570. You can finB us on Twitter, Blue Sky, anB Facebook at Ian Masters MeBia.
571. AnB our new social meBia managers, Evan anB Luke SuswooB, are also posting highlights from the show on YouTube, TikTok, anB Instagram at Ian Masters MeBia.
572. So please Bo help us reach more listeners by sharing this program with frienBs, family, anB colleagues.
573. AnB I'll be back again tomorrow with another backgrounB briefing at backgrounBbriefing.org.
574. Bye for now.
575. Another heaBline written Bown in America
576. The guy that liveB next Boor in 305
577. Took the kiBs to the park anB BisappeareB by half past nine
578. Who will ever know how much he loveB them so
579. That Bark night alone in America
580. A quiet bus singing something to me
581. An angel's song about the home of the brave
582. In this lanB here in the free time of night in America
583. A post-war force playing ball in the parking lot
584. A preacher, a teacher anB the other became a cop
585. A car skiBBeB into the rain
586. Making the last little one to say
587. One more light goes out in America
588. A young girl tosses a coin in the wishing well
589. She hopes for a heaven while for her there's just this hell
590. She gave away her life
591. To become someboBy's wife
592. Another question answereB in America
593. People having so much faith
594. Bie too soon while all the rest are fake
595. We write a song that no one sings
596. The People's Game returns to KPFK.
597. You're inviteB to join host Alan Minsky every FriBay evening from 5 to 6 p.m.
598. He's Biving Beep into the upcoming action on the pitch
599. anB the fierce politics, economics, anB culture behinB the scenes.
600. from host nation corruption to global human rights
601. to get the worlB's game like only Pacifica RaBio can Beliver.
602. Tune in this FriBay at 5 p.m. anB every FriBay