Beneath The Surface - Sunday, June 14, 2026

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6. This is April Grace, and you and I are listening to KPFK,
7. 90.7 FM in Los Angeles, 98.7 FM in Santa Barbara, 93.7 FM in San Diego, and 99.5 FM in Ridgecrest in China Lake.
8. Also streaming online at kpfk.org.
9. And hello, this is Alan Minsky and I'm sitting in for Susie Weissman on Beneath the Surface.
10. And later in the hour, we are going to be talking about the World Cup soccer tournament, the FIFA World Cup soccer tournament that started on Thursday and is now up and running across Canada, the United States and Mexico.
11. Very controversial World Cup.
12. And that actually was the theme music of the series The People's Game.
13. In some respects, the final two-thirds of this show will be The People's Game on Beneath the Service.
14. and the People's Game is airing on KPFK every Friday at 5 p.m.
15. for the run of the World Cup.
16. We had our first show on Friday
17. and we will be back on Friday at 5 p.m.
18. with another People's Game on KPFK.
19. Now later in the hour,
20. we're going to be joined by Bill Lockenmaker and Melissa Figueroa.
21. Melissa Figueroa is the co-producer and co-host of the People's Game
22. and they'll be joining Karen Bernal,
23. who will be part of our first segment in a moment,
24. to talk about the World Cup so far,
25. Karen and Bill are big activist soccer fans that I've gotten to know through their work as California progressives, which is what Karen will be talking about momentarily along with Armour Chargo.
26. But they'll be talking also about the World Cup, their thoughts on it.
27. And actually, one of the teams that they are partisans for are playing currently.
28. So we'll hear about that game as it's ongoing.
29. And then we'll hear from Fernando Romero, who is the other co-producer of The People's Game.
30. He is down in Mexico.
31. He was in Mexico City for El Tri's first game on Thursday, and he is traveling to Guadalajara for El Tri's second game.
32. So that's exciting, and we'll hear Fernando and his take on things down in Mexico.
33. And last, we'll also hear from Thomas Hanna, who was our featured guest on the show on Friday, and we were unable to include in that show the five questions we're asking of everybody who's a guest on the show.
34. on the people's game at the top of the tournament, and you'll hear Thomas's answer to those.
35. And Mel and I will be together for those segments with Fernando and Thomas as well.
36. So for now, let's jump right in because we're going to hold on talking about the World Cup
37. and men's football for a while, and we're going to talk about California politics, the
38. California Democratic Party, the results of last Tuesday's primaries, which took a while
39. to get the results, so it took a while to digest.
40. And for that, we actually have two former chairs of the Progressive Caucus of the California Democratic Party.
41. In fact two multi former chairs and really very very significant organizers activists and leaders of the California progressive movement both inside and outside the Democratic Party And they both Sacramento Metro
42. and they are Amar Shargill and Karen Bernal. Welcome, Amar and Karen.
43. Good morning.
44. Good morning. And right off the bat, I mean, the real salient question is,
45. The California Democratic Party has not been a place where there have been a lot of really Bernie Sanders-esque, squad-esque elected officials that have been elevated by the party sort of establishment.
46. And there is actually something of a dearth of them certainly within the House Congressional Caucus from California by far the largest state's congressional caucus in the House.
47. And so this primaries this year, though, seemed to be a moment where there was something of a breakthrough by progressives across the state.
48. But alas, the leading progressive candidate for governor did not make the runoff.
49. Amar, what's your assessment of the results from last Tuesday and where that balance now stands between a very business-friendly, dominant centrist faction of the California Democratic Party and the progressives who I believe their policies are supported by the base of the party?
50. you know i think if you take a look at it what's happening now is not really unexpected is that as
51. as people over the last decade have been waking up to how parties are sold out how elected officials
52. are beholden to uh corporate money what we see is the institutions that are beholden that money
53. keep doubling down right so over the last 10 years we've seen the california democratic party
54. refuse to stop taking corporate money. They're doubling down on fossil fuel money.
55. They silence progressives inside the party. They use resources specifically to
56. disadvantage even those progressives that are endorsed by the party. They play favorites.
57. So as we see progress by individual candidates across the state, we see the party really
58. leaning the other way. And it really highlights the battle that we saw with Steyer, is that it's
59. very difficult for a progressive statewide candidate in a state as big as California,
60. as expensive as California, very difficult for someone to get the funding to run across the
61. state. We saw that there's definitely an appetite for Steyer, even though he had one of the,
62. you know, biggest challenges in convincing voters because he's a billionaire. You know,
63. His greatest advantage was also his greatest deficit.
64. But what we saw even then is that there's a big appetite for folks that are talking about progressive issues, that fight for progressive values.
65. We can talk about the different examples up and down the state, but there are candidates that are getting it done.
66. Yeah, and I'm going to bring Karen Bernal in.
67. Karen Bernal, like Amir, is a former chair of the Progressive Caucus of the California Democratic Party and certainly works very engaged with California politics.
68. And I know that she's done a lot of organizing outside of the party with, in particular, young activists.
69. Do you sense, Karen, that there's still a pretty strong sense of alienation among politically active young folks in California from the Democratic Party?
70. And do you think it's still a difficult thing for progressives not winning enough elections to really draw them into the movement for electoral progressive politics?
71. Oh, yeah, I mean that challenge certainly seems to, I seem to have an echo on my end.
72. I don't know how to correct it.
73. Oh you coming through clearly Okay There seems to be an ongoing alienation and it really hasn abated The case in point is you know I been working on a state senate campaign here myself
74. and just in this district I'm talking about, there is a nearly 30% NPP rate, no party preference rate.
75. and reaching this segment of the electorate is a huge challenge
76. and obviously important if we're wanting to affect an outcome in any race,
77. especially against incumbents, against flipping a district, and so on.
78. And that isn't going to change anytime soon.
79. I think, you know, the electorate does know.
80. They're aware of, let's say, the fact that nothing has changed.
81. They're deeply dissatisfied.
82. There is discontent.
83. I just think that we're not quite at the point with the average normie Democratic voter, for instance,
84. or someone that would be voting left, what the connection is.
85. So in many cases, you know, the fear of Trump still has some success, as well as the fact that they haven't quite understood that the difference between performative politics that the Democratic Party has been very good at and one that points to, you know, a record of substantive action on the part of the candidates when it comes to politics.
86. policies. And, you know, I think, weirdly, had this election gone on a little bit longer,
87. I do think Steyer perhaps would have done a little better. But, you know, it's trending
88. in the right direction. It's just that it's very hard. And, I mean, case in point, even
89. Even the so-called normie Dems talked about how difficult it is to vote for a billionaire.
90. Some came out and said, I just couldn't vote for a billionaire.
91. So that kind of talk, I don't think, you know, you wouldn't have really heard that 10 years ago.
92. But now it's come out.
93. And I think, you know, where the disconnect was, was the fact that in voting for someone like Becerra, they were actually helping the case or the cause of the billionaire class, the Epstein class.
94. And, you know, that is a sad fact.
95. Well, I'm going to come back to you in a second, Karen, in particular around some House races.
96. But both you and Karen have basically acknowledged the difficulty of competing statewide for progressives.
97. There are two state races, though, that I think are very significant for progressives on the November ballot still, one of which is, of course, not the governor's race.
98. But one is certainly the insurance commissioner's race.
99. And the other, and this is something else, is the billionaire's tax, where the early polling showed, what, 75 percent support.
100. Now you have both gubernatorial candidates opposed to it.
101. I believe that's Becerra's pretty much staunch position.
102. So what are your sense of those two races?
103. And Jane Kim, as the sort of progressive candidate insurance commissioner race,
104. I imagine she's going to have a lot of money arrayed against her because, boy, that hits close to home for corporate America.
105. Yeah I think that insurance race is going to be a really interesting task Because what we saw in the primary is where the voters were not worried about handing the office to a Republican to a MAGA guy
106. They chose the progressive.
107. You know, the top vote getter was the progressive.
108. And we saw that in a number of other races.
109. You know, in the Maivang versus Matsui race, where folks are not worried about the Republican, they chose the progressive.
110. in the Vegas race down in Bakersfield, relatively conservative area.
111. Again, they chose the progressive when they weren't worried.
112. And I think we're going to see that play out with Jane Kim,
113. is that when you have two Democrats and they're just talking about the policies,
114. more and more people are willing to say, I don't want the status quo.
115. Let me take somebody that's in for change that seems to be fighting for the people.
116. Yeah, that'd be very interesting dynamic.
117. Sure, yeah, and the billionaire's tax, your thoughts on that?
118. Yeah, you know, the billionaire's tax, I think what we're seeing is, you know, the existing entrenched corporate powers and their, you know, captured candidates like Newsom and Becerra, they are desperate.
119. You know, they need that billionaire money.
120. They need that corporate money.
121. They will do anything to keep those folks friendly to fund their future campaigns.
122. Newsom needs those billionaires so that he can run for president.
123. But, yeah, they're going to double down.
124. It's really a sign of their desperation.
125. This is so popular with voters.
126. They will do anything now to try to oppose it.
127. That's going to be an interesting dynamic because the more they double down, the more folks see that these billionaires are actually against us.
128. Yeah, I think what you saw is that, you know, that was the great missed opportunity and tragedy, as it were, with the outcome of the governor's race.
129. Not to go back to that was exactly what Amar just pointed up on a Dem versus Dem race.
130. This would have allowed the party.
131. It would have allowed the voters to consider policies, and this would have helped to advance the progressive cause because the argument would have been limited to the policies.
132. And this was huge, huge, and it would have had such a good effect on all of the down-ticket races, and now that's not there.
133. Likewise with the billionaire tax, we can now see, you know, after everything is said and done,
134. who is coming out, who is sending out the mailers for, you know, their positions opposing the billionaire tax.
135. And it's, you know, the very people who, you know, we're being told are the people that we have to vote for to oppose Trump
136. and vis-a-vis Hilton, and this is what we're seeing.
137. And so I think a lot of this is great education for the voter,
138. and I think it's our responsibility to make sure that we continue to do that,
139. that we continue to point out that in supporting these people,
140. that this is what they voted for.
141. They voted for a status quo where, in essence,
142. the Democratic Party is exposed as a giant money laundering operation and the
143. fact that they they what's more important to them is the donor class and
144. you know the status quo of continuing to have huge amounts of money coming in
145. from these entities as opposed to the voters themselves well as as you
146. Both Noah, because I think you might have taken a glance at the little article I wrote in Common Dreams that was published before Election Day, that the California Democratic Party and I have – the work I do outside the radio station is very related to tracking the Democratic Party across the country.
147. State Democratic Parties outside of California are not this reactionary and tied to big business interests and so on because, of course, in most states, either they're behind the Republican Party or they're much more competitive with the Republican Party and the Chamber of Commerce throws all their money into the Republican Party.
148. And at any rate, they just simply haven't developed a system, which is this lockdown.
149. And some states still have old legacies of that.
150. But, you know, New Jersey broke its county line system.
151. And look, they have two great progressives already entering into the U.S. House of Representatives, both very squad-esque.
152. And Anna Lilia Mejia and now Dr. Homway, brilliant victory.
153. And New Jersey's 12th to follow Bonnie Watson Coleman, really groundbreaking figure who's pretty much guaranteed to win in November.
154. Now, out here in California though, with Hilton on the ballot now and not Steyer, that does make the opportunity for progressives to win particularly in two districts.
155. Well, one certainly closer to where you are and the other about equal distance.
156. Randy Villegas, the first one, it's really going to be telling to see if his opponent in the California Democratic Party establishment gets behind him because this now – it's a gerrymandered district to be more favorably Democratic.
157. And if you added up the two Democratic candidates, they beat the incumbent, of course, the district having shifted.
158. But it's not that much of a gap.
159. And, you know, is having a House majority more important to the California Democratic Party against Donald Trump, which I certainly hope it is, than shooting down a progressive?
160. And I think it will be very telling to see what happens there.
161. What are your thoughts on that?
162. And then the sort of same dynamic, though, with two Democrats, a conservative Democrat and a very promising young Democrat, Mei Vang, who won the primary.
163. But again, will Republican money and big money array against her in the campaign?
164. Your thoughts on both those races?
165. Maybe take it away, Amar, then Karen.
166. Yeah, you know, I think we're going to see a similar dynamic in both of those where, you know, people on the ground have clearly indicated that they want the progressive.
167. There's top vote-getters against entrenched, elected, corporate Democrats.
168. And yes, the money's going to come in, but that money will be inefficient.
169. As we saw in the Steyr race, sometimes money doesn't tell the whole story.
170. And we have both of those races, Villegas and Mai, where they're outspent,
171. but they're far more efficient with their money because folks know that they're fighting for the people.
172. And folks now are aware that when you see an ad that attacks a candidate who's paying for the ad.
173. And it's, you know, we were we're going to see in California test that, you know, that this money becomes less and less efficient.
174. Is there enough money even out there to convince voters to abandon their values and vote against progressives when voters now know the difference between the two?
175. And I think what we're going to see is Maivang and Villegas both rise to the top in both those races.
176. Those would be brilliant results.
177. Karen, your thoughts, especially on the district so close to you.
178. Well, I think that, you know, Amir brings up a very good point, which is, you know, what he's talking about is, you know, relational organizing.
179. And in order for that to be successful that is owed to the fact that they have had relationships on the ground with their constituencies And the fact is and this is you know sad to say this was part of Steyer problem was he didn have that those established relationships coalition building
180. And I would say that for Villegas and Vang, they certainly had it, especially Vang.
181. I can't speak as authoritatively on the Villegas race, but certainly with Vang.
182. Much the same, but a much more geographically dispersed district, of course.
183. Yeah, the roots, the coalition building roots are deep.
184. And this is something that Matsui clearly ignored and actually placed no value in.
185. And this is going to matter greatly because once you have relationships with the people on the ground, then it's a different story.
186. And, yeah, I think that there will be a lot of money.
187. I don't think it'll be enough to convince the voters that they shouldn't stick with who they, you know, voted for, in this case, Vang and Villegas.
188. I think, you know, we're looking at a change there, and it's a good one.
189. Yeah, no, and I think the other pickup to the left that will occur within the California caucus is hopefully within Eric Swalwell's former district.
190. Of course, the Nancy Pelosi former seat is a toss-up between Scott Weiner and the more progressive Connie Chan.
191. Down here in Southern California, the candidates that did make the runoff from the left against Democratic incumbents would be seen as long shots in the 34th against Jimmy Gomez and in the 29th against Liz Rivas.
192. But hey, more power to the candidates, right?
193. And we'll see what happens as they build up their campaigns.
194. And then I think a progressive made a breakthrough in a heavily Republican district, not to be confused with the incumbent in Seven, but Matsui with no T is his last name.
195. And so – but other than that though, still the establishment at the federal level with all their money and all of their imbalance from within the party, it's not consummate to the strength of progressives in terms of support for public policy in California.
196. And that's all the more to work for.
197. So final thought, Amar, and I know Karen's going to stay on for the next segment about the World Cup.
198. But Amar, first of all, Amar Shargill, thank you so much for joining us here.
199. And if people are unfamiliar with Amar's work, you should get to know him because he's one of the great progressive organizers in the state of California.
200. And he's been a blessing to the progressive movement inside and outside the Democratic Party.
201. Final thoughts, Amar?
202. Well, first, just thank you to Karen for even showing up when I know there's a World Cup game going on.
203. Like a lot of your listeners, she has probably got the game on on the screen while she listens to us.
204. So thank you for everybody for tuning in.
205. I do. I do.
206. It's worse than that.
207. It's a team that the household has some partisan affiliation with, one of the teams.
208. Well, thank you so much, Amar, and onwards.
209. All right. Take care. Thank you all.
210. Yep, for sure.
211. And now we're going to be joined not just continuing by Karen but also by Bill Lackamacker, who's also up in Sacramento and is an activist soccer fan, and Melissa Figueroa, my co-host on The People's Game.
212. Now, look, both Bill and Karen – and I think Bill – maybe Bill, first question for you.
213. Why is it that your household is – and you can be open about this or you can deflect it if you like – are partisan for the German national team?
214. And welcome, Bill Lackemeyer, to KPFK Radio.
215. Bill Lackemeyer Thank you very much.
216. My family is from Germany.
217. They came over here in 1850 so I definitely German partisan when it comes to that And we visited Germany before a few times and I really like the country So that why I a German fan
218. And they're playing currently.
219. Now, we're not allowed, I think, if we tried to do,
220. if you even tried to do a second of play-by-play,
221. I think the spirit of Gianni Infantino would come here
222. and destroy all independent media in Southern California.
223. But you are allowed to give sort of a news flash
224. as to what's transpiring in the game that is ongoing currently.
225. Germany's up by 1-0, and they scored probably in maybe like the sixth minute, something like that.
226. It was fairly early on.
227. They are about as heavily favored in this game as in any game so far between two teams, though.
228. I believe the heaviest favorite in any other game was Turkey over Australia.
229. Oh, I think Switzerland-Guitar.
230. But, yeah, Turkey over Australia produced quite an upset, and Switzerland over Guitar was a draw.
231. But Curacao does not make you nervous?
232. Oh, my gosh.
233. They get scored.
234. Yes.
235. Don't explain the details because, again,
236. FIFA with their play-by-play monopoly is pretty particular.
237. But that's fine.
238. That's amazing.
239. So are you able, and maybe Melissa, we can bring Melissa in here,
240. can anybody explain where's Carousel and what region?
241. They're ranked number 82, Alan.
242. And just so you know, the conversation in our house about the teams,
243. I mean, it's gotten to the point, and I'm sure a lot of soccer fans feel this way, who braved the calls to completely boycott watching the games.
244. For us, football is life.
245. And so I think the way we're looking at it is I can't root for any team that are really especially complicit on the ongoing crimes in Palestine.
246. And, you know, Germany's up there. Germany's one of them. So it's, you know, I watched this team with the greatest dispassion I can say that I've ever felt. And, yeah, they're not my number one here.
247. Yeah, no. And for people who don't know, across the entirety of the post-October 7th global crises of witnessing genocide transpiring, I would guess more than any country in the world, including even the UK and the United States, there was just this kind of cultural mandate within Germany that within the press that you were expected at all turns to support Israel.
248. and to say nothing critical of the Israeli government.
249. I mean, it wasn't, you know, I'm not sure if people were imprisoned there.
250. That's happened now in the U.K., by the way.
251. And we know Hassan Baikar and Cenk Uygur were banned from the country because of their position on Israel.
252. It's getting quite extreme under the Starmor government.
253. But it's been really, really, really hard to witness from Germany.
254. And, you know, one can speculate as to what the roots are in terms of that in relationship, obviously, to Germany,
255. the Holocaust in Israel, but it doesn't really allow for Germans to even express the reality
256. that is transpiring in Gaza. So yeah, I understand that, Karen. But Karasau is a very small country.
257. It's in CONCACAF, right? It's in the region of the world, the soccer federation that I believe,
258. right, that the United States is in. And therefore, there were more open places in this World Cup
259. available to teams that were not likely to qualify previously because Mexico, Canada,
260. and the United States all were guaranteed places Am I getting that right Bill Karen Melissa Am I on yet Yeah you on you on Oh great I called on you a few months ago and you didn chime in
261. Of course, I was in the Caribbean,
262. which is, of course, a very fraught politically region right now.
263. But, yeah, they've had a very kind of fairytale run.
264. They finished at the top of their group in the qualifiers,
265. and here they are.
266. Yeah, no, you know, actually, you know, Haiti, of course, is playing, too.
267. I don't know if you all saw that Haiti had their logo on their shirt censored.
268. Yes.
269. Because it was too much a reflection of the spirit of the Haitian Revolution, right?
270. Oh, yes.
271. There was a graphic on the shirt that commemorated a very pivotal 1803 battle in the Haitian Revolution.
272. and yeah it was banned by FIFA
273. just days before the tournament
274. and of course I immediately went out and bought one
275. oh yeah those are collector's items
276. and they really played themselves proud against Scotland
277. I thought
278. oh yes they did
279. losing only 1-0
280. and very very very tough group that they're in
281. and now Kurosawa
282. they had like two really close calls
283. which was just amazing
284. yeah Perrault did
285. wonderfully you know
286. he was just denied in his attempts
287. But, I mean, he should be mentioned because he had some really great chances
288. and just unlucky, especially in the 84th minute.
289. Yeah, that was a header that just went wide.
290. It looked really, for all perspective, like it was going in.
291. Yeah, it was sad.
292. But, yeah, you know, I think those of us who are lefties who watch the game,
293. I didn't know that about the kit, the jersey.
294. I would love to have one of those.
295. I don't know if they're still available, but we ought to put that out there.
296. Just go up to Sacramento Metro and ask people if they know Karen Bernal.
297. If you find one and want to gift one to her, please do that.
298. That would be great.
299. She definitely deserves it.
300. But, hey, so I assume there's no further updates on the game.
301. But, you know, obviously in a few minutes we're going to have to wrap here
302. and go on to the other segments.
303. But what are your thoughts right now about this tournament taking place in the United States?
304. Now, going into the tournament, my sentiment, and I felt this quite strongly, was that – and I'm no apologist for Putin's Russia for people who may wonder.
305. But if Putin's Russia, after hosting the World Cup, is now banned from international competitions as they are because of the invasion of Ukraine, of course, the insanity of Israel not being banned, right?
306. Though there's movements all over the world to demand it, including from a number of the national sides that are playing in this tournament.
307. But they didn't qualify for the World Cup.
308. But the United States was guaranteed to qualify.
309. The United States is bombing a country, one of the countries that is qualified for the World Cup.
310. And what everyone makes of the Iranian government, this was a war initiated.
311. And though it was put upon Israel, the first act of war was done within this year's time by the United States of America.
312. So how, pray tell, are we not banned from this tournament according to the rules of FIFA?
313. And I think that injustice, it's not going to – it's going to be over this tournament the entire time in my mind.
314. And fortunately, we have free speech still in the United States where I can say this and KPFK Radio is a brilliant place that they allow this kind of speech on the air because it's the truth.
315. And yeah, so obviously that and there's a whole bunch of other reasons given the nature of Trump's America, the insane racism of the ICE raids and so on and the various forms of community oppression taking place under the Trump administration.
316. Karen and Bill, what are your thoughts about the World Cup
317. in the United States?
318. And also Mexico and Canada, which by
319. right, I think, deserve having glorious World Cup matches on their soil.
320. Bill?
321. Yeah, your thoughts, Karen, Bill, on the World Cup in America, the politics of it, the political
322. subtext?
323. Well, I think it's a disgrace how we've treated some of the other countries' players, the
324. referees, the coaches.
325. This is not what the World Cup is supposed to be like.
326. it's supposed to bring countries together,
327. and we're doing the exact opposite.
328. It's shameful.
329. Yeah.
330. In the first episode of this a couple days ago,
331. we played Ian Wright, the English player,
332. with his gut response to the Somalian referee being banned,
333. and he just was absolutely, incredulously appalled.
334. Karen, the floor is yours, Karen.
335. Yeah, I think it's disgraceful and it's shameful.
336. I feel nothing but shame about that.
337. And it's just unbelievable to me how even entire teams have been treated.
338. And when you look at, and there's, you know, videos out there on social media
339. comparing the treatment of, you know, the host countries welcoming,
340. the difference in welcomes as it were between the U.S. and Mexico, for instance,
341. to certain teams and the fact of having to see teams be searched on the tarmac,
342. their suitcases opened and treated as though they are drug smugglers or something
343. versus the way that they are treated when they get off the plane in Mexico.
344. And nowhere is this perhaps given a higher profile than what's happening with the Iran team.
345. And, you know, I even, the thought that went through my mind, gee, you know, when they have to come into this country, they're only allowed in to come in right before the game and must leave right after their match.
346. you know, we can only imagine, will their locker room be, you know,
347. how will the conditions in their locker room be
348. and all the other things that they should expect as a team and as players.
349. You know, because after all, we're talking about this country as it is right now.
350. And so, anyways, you know, those are the kinds of thoughts that are going through my mind.
351. Yeah, and before I let you go, and Elizabeth, please chime in on this as well, we had the USA play their first game.
352. And, you know, it was a frighteningly strong performance, and it was a frightening display of red, white, and blue jingoism on many of the shots on the FIFA feed.
353. And it is – look, at times in my life, I've been more rather than less, which is now happy, not at all right now, with the United States or any displays of patriotism.
354. And it just seems so – it must really turn people's stomach all over the world to see that.
355. And they must be rooting very strongly against the US men's team.
356. But that is a strong team with all these guys healthy for once.
357. A lot of the midfield is a bunch of starters from very top-flight European clubs now.
358. and I don't think they'll go that deep
359. but they're frighteningly good.
360. It's infuriating.
361. It's infuriating and I was sickened watching it.
362. The jingoism on display.
363. It was hard to take.
364. I think the only relief I found was in commiserating with like football fans you know lefty football fans you know over text messages and signal chats and so on But yeah it was sickening And the irony
365. of it all is that so many of the players on the team itself, you know, do not agree with Trump
366. policies and themselves are people of color. Just, oh, yeah. Yeah. Melissa, please.
367. Yeah, I want to mention a couple of things.
368. I mean, yeah, a lot of the team, actually some of the team members were apparently censured or talked to strongly by the coach who is a total Trumper.
369. I think one of the players said something very mild.
370. Coach Attino's a Trumper?
371. About the FIFA corruption and stuff like that.
372. But I don't remember if it was the head coach or an assistant coach, something like that.
373. I don't have the news story in front of me.
374. But, yeah, there's definitely that kind of conflict going on in the team.
375. I would also mention that the player who made most of the goals, Balo Goon,
376. would not have been playing for the team if Trump had his way with birthright citizenship, BTW.
377. And so that's a very interesting kind of dynamic.
378. I think we did mention with Thomas on Friday that, you know, this team is actually a lot more black and brown than it has been in the past.
379. And so, you know, it's so ironic that, you know, this time around we're playing in Trump's America,
380. and yet the team is made up of the very people that Trump would rather not have in this country.
381. Indeed. And Bill, your thoughts and maybe an update on the score of the game right now?
382. It's still 1-1.
383. Germany's getting lots of shots, but they're not very accurate.
384. So they're going to definitely have to turn things around in the second half.
385. They don't want to be embarrassed by this.
386. One thing about the World Cup, in 1994 I was able to go to three different games.
387. Right. World Cup games, one in Boston, one in New York and one in Chicago.
388. And it was completely amazing this year. I just don't feel the same desire based on, you know, the way our country is treating teams, the way FIFA is handled, ticketing and pricing.
389. Right. It's really bad. Maybe maybe I'll get to go to one.
390. maybe not, but one of the things about the World Cup and bringing people together,
391. if you get a chance, look up the Curacao dancer, this guy that dances with,
392. he's dancing with a pilot on a tarmac, he's dancing with flight attendants coming through the airport.
393. I mean, stuff like that is what I really like about the World Cup.
394. Well, another thing that's been great in recent iterations has been shows of solidarity for Palestine.
395. And Mel, if you want to give us a quick update on that in about 90 seconds,
396. and then we're going to go to five questions each for Karen and Bill as we close out the segment.
397. Go for it, Mel.
398. Yeah, absolutely.
399. It looks like this World Cup in the big global spectacle is becoming some kind of a fan referendum on Palestine in many ways.
400. In the opening ceremony, you had both one of the drummers wearing a keffiyeh
401. and as as well as uh one of the performers eliana war a kathia uh during her performance uh the body in national team right before the game with Canada had a huge demonstration in the streets
402. and they were shouting, free, free Palestine.
403. Morocco and New York, before the game, were waving Palestinian flags.
404. In Toronto, you had one of the World Cup big advertisements
405. An activist group covered it over with a banner that said kick FIFA, I mean, kick Israel out of FIFA.
406. So there is a huge, huge groundswell.
407. And it's going to, I suspect and hope that it's going to be a huge sort of undercurrent throughout the tournament.
408. It's just solidarity and Palestine wherever people can fit it in, I guess.
409. And in Mexico, interestingly enough, as Iran arrived for the—and Fernando and I are going to talk about this—as Iran arrived in Mexico, because they are not allowed in the United States, you had Mexicans chanting,
410. Iran, hermano, ya eres mexicano.
411. You know, Iran, brother, now you're Mexican.
412. Well, the Iranian presence in the tournament decenters the role of El-Turri as being the great oppositional champion, which they also are.
413. I don't think we should lose sight of that because what's happened in this country towards Latinos around ICE has been an appalling abuse of human rights as well, of course.
414. So, hey, look, let's go to Karen and Bill.
415. And, guys, you've got to be on your toes here for a second.
416. I'm going to give you five questions.
417. And the first question is for Karen and then for Bill.
418. One player who you are looking to really sort of shine in this tournament
419. and make a strong impression to the people of the world.
420. Ooh.
421. Hmm.
422. I think that's a good question.
423. I'm not really sure how to answer it.
424. Favorite player who's up and coming maybe?
425. Yeah.
426. I mean, I remember asking Bill about a player that I thought was really interesting, Masraoui.
427. You know, I think he did really, really well for Morocco, I believe.
428. I think Morocco itself deserves mad respect.
429. Well, here we go.
430. That's going to be the second question.
431. Bill, a player that you're looking to to have a breakout World Cup?
432. I'm probably going to jump on the bandwagon and Luminia Mall.
433. Wow. He's definitely won this vote so far. I can tell you that.
434. Yeah, because and just the story about, you know, Netanyahu trying to keep him out of the country because he's waving a Palestinian flag.
435. even more supportive of him.
436. By the way, Germany just scored again.
437. There we go.
438. So the next are two questions for Karen.
439. I'll take the first answer to have been Morocco.
440. A team that you sense will be a breakout team and exceed expectations
441. and a team that will disappoint in the World Cup.
442. What are those two choices?
443. Probably rapid fire as we're running out of time.
444. Okay, I'm going to say Morocco.
445. i completely agree with the yamal thing by the way uh... you know and i don't
446. know how successful they are going to be in
447. centering him and you know throughout this thing but eyes on him for sure by the oppressive regime uh i think but though did not I did not find any inspiration from Brazil at all
448. I don't know what they're going to do.
449. By the way, I should say this is not the choice, it's the team to win.
450. So team that will surprise and exceed expectations, Bill,
451. and the team that will disappoint and then will hold off on who will win.
452. Yeah, I'm looking for Morocco as my dark horse.
453. I think they're going to surprise people.
454. Yep.
455. And disappoint.
456. It could be Germany, the way they've been playing the last couple World Cups.
457. Yeah, for sure, for sure.
458. Okay, team to win, Karen, and then team to win, Bill.
459. Oh, gosh.
460. I don't know.
461. I'm lost on that one because things are so up in the air.
462. I can tell you an offshoot of that.
463. Okay, sure.
464. Okay.
465. I think the U.S. will go further than originally thought.
466. I think we thought that they would get out of group stage and get knocked out.
467. I think that they are displaying some verve and the kind of confidence and aggression that I think could propel them further.
468. But as to who would win.
469. You're positing a nightmare scenario, I want to say there for a second.
470. I know, I know.
471. But we should move because we're almost out of time because the next two segments are pre-recorded.
472. Bill, team to win?
473. I'm going to, if I was a betting man, I'd pick Spain.
474. Wow, that's one of the top choices.
475. And then, look, I know we only have about 30 seconds for each of you,
476. but what you would hope to see as expressions of political solidarity and radicalism from people around the world during this World Cup as they watch the tournament.
477. Karen and then Bill.
478. Karen, you're up.
479. Well, gosh, something has to break through.
480. It is the people's game after all.
481. And that's what I want to see.
482. I want to see this.
483. I want to see us take back, you know, the theme and the spirit of this, which has been hijacked.
484. For reals.
485. And, Bill, your thoughts on what you might want to, you hope to see politically in terms of political expression?
486. any country that supports
487. Palestine
488. I hope they do well
489. Bosnia and Norway
490. are two countries that have done that but Morocco
491. still remains in the lead and I'm sure we'll see
492. many other expressions going forward
493. Karen Bernal and Bill Lachmecker thank you so much
494. especially for joining us when Germany
495. is playing there thank you for the updates
496. and solidarity and talk to you both soon
497. and right now we're going to go to
498. Thomas Hanna
499. pre-recorded with his five questions
500. Take it away, me and Thomas.
501. Thomas Hanna from the Democracy Collaborative is back with us.
502. And we have five quick questions for you, Thomas.
503. Okay, what player do you think, not necessarily is going to win the player of the tournament
504. or score the most goals, but in this upcoming World Cup, you think is going to have a breakout
505. moment and really impress the people around the world?
506. Is there any one player or maybe a couple that you see that about?
507. I love Lamin Yamal.
508. I really hope that he has a breakout tournament.
509. I hope he's not injured, you know, the whole game.
510. I am going to see Spain next week.
511. So I really hope Laminia Mall plays.
512. He may not.
513. If he plays, he'll have a breakout tournament.
514. I think the guy from Mexico, I'm spacing on his name right now, the 17-year-old.
515. Mora.
516. Mora.
517. Mora.
518. He looked good when he came on.
519. I haven't seen him play much.
520. But, you know, just if they get him more integrated and Mexico goes deep, then I think he has a good shot to be breakout player as well.
521. And then.
522. these two questions, not the team you think will win, but the team likewise that you think will
523. surprise with a positive performance, and then the team you think that will disappoint with an
524. unfortunate World Cup in 2026? I think Norway and Colombia will probably exceed expectations.
525. I like Colombia a lot. I like the sort of way they play. My co-coach for my travel team is
526. Colombian, so I might be a bit biased there, but I think Colombia will exceed expectations.
527. and then Norway you know I just you know Holland is a gold machine and I think they may surprise
528. some people and go a bit further uh than people expect um in terms of teams that will disappoint
529. you know I'm going to go out on way out on a limb here and say that I don't think France will go as
530. far as as maybe people expect France to go that's that's a high bar so you know maybe they'll still
531. make the quarters or the semi but like I'm not picking France to win the world cup they got to
532. the finals of a year a few years ago lost to portugal and they've seen as a big disappointment
533. so yeah that's the expectation levels there colombia i gotta say if they if they do uh have
534. a great world cup they will of course be in marked contrast to what was arguably and probably
535. correctly the could be called the most tragic world cup uh appearance ever which was in in
536. usa 94 um okay the team you've picked to win team i picked to win i i think spain will win it
537. you know, I think that they have all of the tools if they're healthy.
538. You know, if all their guys are healthy, then I think Spain is probably my favorite.
539. Well, I was going to say, I thought maybe the good comic answer would have been for you to say
540. France, they'll disappoint and they'll win.
541. That's actually possible.
542. The expectation is because, you know, the shop contains their offense and the people gripe about it.
543. But yeah, no.
544. So Spain is the choice there.
545. And the final question, politically, publicly, people's voices being heard,
546. solidarity expressed, what would you hope to see from the perspective of the people and opposition
547. to global capital, rising fascism out of popular expression in this World Cup?
548. Well, I really hope out of this World Cup, you know, you have an honest conversation about FIFA
549. and about the sort of role of money in the sport, you know, especially leading into the next
550. set of world cups you know i i don't you know they seem very tone deaf infantino's press conference
551. the other day seemed you know just same as qatar where he just defends everything that he's done
552. and rambles for hours about about why he's great but like you know i i really do hope there's some
553. reckoning with the with the role of money in the sport you know maybe maybe this is the world cup
554. where they just sort of hit peak extraction and and there's a step back in the future you know
555. I'm not holding my breath for it, but, but I really think that there's sort of the wave of
556. negative commentary and, and, and sort of feedback that I've seen so far, you know,
557. gives me some hope that, you know, that there'll be a course correction in the future.
558. Thomas Hanna from the Democracy Collaborative. Thank you so much.
559. Thank you for having me.
560. And right now we're going to go straight into Melissa Figueroa's conversation
561. with our co-producer, Fernando Romero, who's down in Mexico,
562. and then Melissa and I will be back to wrap up.
563. Welcome to the People's Game.
564. We are here in our second episode.
565. I'm Melissa Figueroa, and I'm here with Fernando Romero, who is speaking to us from Mexico.
566. Welcome, Fernando.
567. Good to hear from you, Melissa.
568. Good to be here.
569. Great.
570. So as we said in our first episode, you were off to Mexico City for that opening game,
571. that extraordinary opening game.
572. So first off, did you get in or did you go to the Zocalo?
573. How was that experience of the game for you We did not get into the game As we all know the tickets were exorbitant in amount Even the eve before we were looking at tickets but we knew it wasn going to happen So plan B or what ended up happening was to go to the Zocalo You know
574. the result is back and forth of whether or not the Zocalo will be opened up, but we were keeping an
575. up-close eye on social media and the news. The word was that it would open up midnight on Wednesday
576. night leading into Thursday. So we got up early in the morning, lined up at 6.30, 7.30 in the morning
577. at the Zocalo and by the time we got there there was probably maybe about 100,000 people already
578. in line. It was definitely an experience to remember the management of the opening of the
579. fencing where the protesters were lined up around it so essentially the 12-15 avenues that lead into
580. the Zocalo were fenced off and they opened up one on Avenida Vincente de Novia which is on the
581. south side of the Zocalo so the opening of that one fence was maybe eight or ten meters wide for
582. about 200,000 people, which definitely made it very difficult to get in. We were essentially
583. caught up in a situation where the line was, some people were jumping the line and it was very close
584. to becoming a stampede or trampling. It was kind of a scary situation that was mismanaged. There
585. wasn't a lot of crowd control. We were very lucky to get in and, you know, we enjoyed the game. It
586. was blistering hot in this Zocalo, but we were able to enjoy the game and be there with the
587. people just standing there in the Zocalo with about 200,000 other Mexicans or folks from all
588. over the world were there and just to be there in this mythical place that the Zocalo is you know
589. that's where the Aztecs you know have their pyramid that's where you know Guadalajara made
590. his last stand against the conquering Spaniards you know 500 years ago so it's a very mythical
591. place and I'm glad we got we were able to get in and to be there for this match singing the
592. national anthem was unreal and just being there with the people you know celebrating each goal
593. with the folks, complete strangers.
594. And it was definitely an experience to remember
595. and just, you know, singing and chanting
596. and dancing with all the people around us.
597. It was definitely a very beautiful ambience to enjoy
598. and definitely don't regret doing it
599. and will remember that for the rest of my life.
600. That's amazing.
601. For U.S. listeners, what is like the closest we maybe get
602. is like the NBA finals,
603. but even that is maybe like an order of magnitude less
604. than what even you typically get in Latin America
605. on football day.
606. So can you describe for listeners who haven't had an experience like that, how different do you find an experience like that versus, say, like anything that we get in the United States?
607. That's a good point. Yeah, I think, you know, we in L.A., we've had like the L.A. Dodgers win a couple World Series the last few years.
608. And we have a parade a few days after each World Series. And, you know, the folks come out and it's lined up down Figueroa Street.
609. but you know this is as I mentioned we got there at 7 30 in the morning five six hours before the
610. game started and it was already a hundred thousand people in line and those folks were probably
611. lining up at midnight so the I think that's the uh the difference you know we saw people of all
612. ages men women children elderly women elderly men wanting to be there inside the stadium and just
613. you know the the magnitude knowing that the whole world was going to be watching this game and
614. and like I said I've seen some of the footage of what the crowd looked like from above it was just
615. insane and this is I mean this is like you know Michael Jackson Prince did a free show at Grand
616. Park 30 years ago when they were at peak of their career you know there'll be hundreds of thousands
617. of people lined up and especially it was a free show and this is a was a free event so it was
618. definitely you know we saw like people from all walks of life social classes you know lined up to
619. see this this match at the Zocalo and it's just immense you know that's it's hard to compare it
620. because you're comparing apples and oranges but for the folks that that we saw it was it was their
621. day it was her day to to remember and just I saw just the happiness I was definitely very happy people and enjoying themselves on that day That amazing And from what I have experienced too it just like the world stops for soccer which we never really kind of see here
622. But yeah, I mean, let's go back to that sort of scary moment that, you know, there was only one entrance.
623. And that was because there's been quite fierce protests going on in the lead up to the World Cup.
624. And also on the day of, I saw that there were some clashes with police going on.
625. Did you see any of that?
626. You know, the protests have, of course, been around pension reform for public workers.
627. But yeah, I'm curious to see what you saw of the unrest, but also a lot of protests that were happening around the square.
628. Right. So I did not see the protests at the Zocalo that day. There was a heavy force of police officers and security personnel that was ensuring that nothing like that happened. But I did see the tents and the camps set up. And it did definitely give you a very weird and eerie perspective of this contrast between Mexican nationals or tourism foreigners.
629. to be frank i don't think anybody's upset with the protesters nobody's upset with the activists and
630. the folks that are manifesting their working class struggle nobody's at least the people that i've
631. talked to nobody seems to be upset with them i think leading up to that game with the opening
632. game the i think people are more upset with the way things were done you know i think a lot of
633. people would have been okay if the mayor of mexico city or the president uh shine bomb herself had
634. said you know what we're not going to open this okalo the zocalo's off limits on opening day
635. I think people would have been okay. And I think people, because people support, you know, the struggle of these folks, that they have every right to protest and to make their demands be heard. So all the people I've talked to, nobody's upset with the protesters. They're more upset with the way things were handled, the way that they were mismanaged leading up to it, which, like I said, luckily there wasn't a tragedy on our hands at the moment, and we're not talking about that.
636. But yeah, I saw the tents, I saw the camps, and I talked to a few folks when we were standing in line who were passing leaflets and just support what we're asking for.
637. And I think, like I said, as they were passing these leaflets, everybody was like, yes, we support you.
638. I did check in with one of them, and they kind of mentioned that the reason they were going along with it is that the police personnel had actually intimidated the protesters the night before, that they had actually threatened them.
639. You know, you better stay where you're at or bad things will happen kind of thing.
640. So that was disheartening to hear.
641. But like I said, overall, the people we talked to, the foreigners, ourselves, the Mexican nationals,
642. I think everybody's supporting what they're asking for and will continue to do so.
643. And I was thinking about this while I was standing at the Zocalo watching the national anthem and watching the game.
644. I'm happy and glad to see that there's three countries hosting the World Cup
645. and I'm glad to see that Mexico is the one that's projecting this view to the world
646. that it isn't just the working class struggles happening in Mexico,
647. but I'm sure it's the same thing that are happening in the United States and Canada,
648. all around the world, and Mexico is the one that's standing up.
649. And it shows that the unions, the teachers, the workers are all very well organized.
650. So that gives me a lot of hope.
651. And it isn't just the teachers' unions.
652. There's labor, construction workers.
653. There's probably about, I can't tell, but somewhere between six and ten different unions that are here,
654. as well as other far-left activists protesting reform
655. or asking for changes within the city and the country
656. as well as the global and international struggles
657. regarding Palestine, war in Iran.
658. So definitely there was a lot of conversations around that.
659. That's awesome.
660. I did see also on X a ton of solidarity with Palestine I saw that there was a human flag a Palestinian flag that was formed I don know if you saw that I did not see that but I did see a lot of flags a lot of Palestinian flags at the Zobro
661. I saw quite a few.
662. And it definitely, like I said, it made me happy to see that, along with a lot of Mexican flags.
663. The Iranian team also arrived in Mexico and had a very, very warm reception.
664. reception as i as i saw i believe that i heard people chanting uh iran hermano
665. yeah that translates to iranian iranian you are now a mexican yeah
666. and one thing about that is like you know we'll get into the iran stuff like the the just the
667. ambience of the world cup and just the welcoming i you know i hear mexico said you feel it you see
668. it everywhere. We ran into a bunch of tourists and people that are here specifically for the World Cup,
669. people from Latin America, people from Europe, from Asia, a lot of South Koreans here in Mexico City,
670. a lot of Australians, Spaniards, Colombians. Every other person you see on the street or
671. shopping or on the metro is wearing their country's jersey. And it's really beautiful to see.
672. And everybody's talking about it. And, you know, the Mexican nationals, the people that live here
673. that are welcoming these World Cup fans to Mexico City.
674. Everybody's opening their arms and expressing that,
675. what you just mentioned about Iran, Iran, hermano, yares, mexicano.
676. It's that feeling of hosting and welcoming is everywhere.
677. That's awesome.
678. Yes, people's game on display.
679. Thank you so much, Fernando, for joining us.
680. We hope to hear from you soon.
681. We'll talk to you again after the South Korea game.
682. Thank you, Melissa.
683. We'll definitely be in touch.
684. All right.
685. Thank you.
686. And thank you, Melissa.
687. That was an amazing interview.
688. Melissa, I'm going to put you on the spot in a second to talk just as we close out a little bit, well, in 45 seconds' time about this guy Socrates that this guy Mamdani quoted.
689. But before that, let me just say that this is the People's Game segment of Beneath the Surface with Susie Weissman.
690. Susie will be back next week.
691. Background briefing will be on next.
692. And the People's Game will be back on KPFK this Friday at 5 p.m.
693. Now, I believe we've lost Melissa, it sounds like.
694. Oh, well, I was going to ask her about – in the People's Game and the various iterations of this show, we've celebrated the great radical Brazilian soccer player Socrates who is not only one of the most brilliant soccer players of the late 1970s and early 1980s.
695. He was a great leader and an anti-fascist organizer as a player amongst his team, the Corinthians in Brazil during the fascist dictatorship there.
696. But alas, Mamdani, the great mayor of New York, current mayor of New York, has basically been calling soccer the people's game, echoing this show, and recently has been quoting Socrates.
697. So I think we lost Melissa, but that's it for the people's game segment of Beneath the Surface with Susie Weissman, of course.
698. I'm Alan Minsky.
699. I'm not Susie Weissman.
700. I want to thank Karen Bernal, Amir Shargill, Bill Lacamaker, Melissa Figueroa, Fernando Romero, and Thomas Hanna from the Democracy Collaborative.
701. Again, this is The People's Game.
702. We'll be back Friday at 5 p.m.
703. And Susie Weissman will be back at this time next week.
704. Background briefing is next.
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708. New releases, old favorites, and delightful obscurities, right here on KPFK 90.7 FM in L.A.
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