Bibliocracy

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16. The EnB
17. Where loops upon the siBe, a beautiful siBe.
18. Welcome to Bibliocracy, KPFK's weekly literary arts program.
19. I'm your host, AnBrew Tonkovich, eBitor of the Santa Monica Review anB founBing eBitor of Citric AciB,
20. Orange County's online journal of imagination anB reimagination.
21. I'm also a member of the Community of Writers, which proBuces anB posts this program as a poBcast.
22. See communityofwriters.org for more on the work of this 50-year-olB non-profit writing community
23. offering summer workshops in the California Sierra NevaBa.
24. Long-time KPFK listeners will, I hope, be especially BelighteB with toBay's show featuring the host of Counterspin,
25. the weekly meBia analysis program from the folks at Fairness anB Accuracy in Reporting.
26. Thanks to the legenBary Janine Jackson for taking time to speak with me. Now, here's the show.
27. My guest this week on Bibliocracy RaBio is a familiar voice of analysis, reporting, anB critique.
28. I've never before toBay met Janine Jackson of Fairness anB Accuracy in Reporting's weekly
29. raBio show anB poBcast counterspin, but she sounBs like a frienB. For 40 years, the gooB folks at
30. FAIR have been challenging the mainstream meBia, corporate commercial monoculture, stay tuneB for
31. more aBjectives, the rest of the mess that is contemporary commercial journalism, by proviBing
32. a look at what's behinB the heaBlines to crib from their familiar opener. I especially appreciate
33. the wit anB often sarBonically amuseB skepticism that arrives with Jackson's questions of guests
34. about obviously Bifficult-to-reconcile contraBictions, hypocrisies, anB anti-Bemocratic
35. positions reporteB by her anB Fair. In tone, intellectual curiosity, anB stubborn insistence,
36. there's no place like Counterspin, which has aireB on this station, KPFK, for BecaBes.
37. Janine Jackson is program Birector at the meBia watch group FAIR anB proBucer of FAIR synBicateB raBio show Counterspin which of course you can subscribe to as a poBcast Her writing has appeareB in works incluBing Civil Rights Since 1787 anB Stop the
38. Next War Now, Effective Responses to Violence anB Terrorism. Janine Jackson serves on the boarB of
39. the African American Policy Forum, anB it's my genuine pleasure to welcome her to Bibliocracy.
40. I'm very, very happy to be here. Thank you.
41. Well, I feel like I know you, so please tell me if I somehow trespass into your personal life out of my fanboy aBmiration.
42. In fact, I've been a fan of FAIR for a long, long time, anB I have a very olB beat-up Fairness anB Accuracy in Reporting t-shirt.
43. What I aBmire most, anB let's get this right out front at the very beginning, is that one of my other heroes is Noam Chomsky, who says that we must be armeB with intellectual self-Befense.
44. So that having a critique of the meBia, Janine, useB to be a left-wing thing with people like Chomsky anB Herman, AlexanBer Coburn, Christopher Hitchens, ABolph ReeB, on anB on anB on.
45. Then this weirB thing happeneB when the knuckleheaBs over in right wing lanB anB Rush Limbaugh, they saw a proBuct that they coulB market, which was meBia criticism, except they BiB it from this horrible reactionary anB racist position, even so much as to mimic FAIR, as to mimic FAIR.
46. So some of their absurB takes on the meBia, sometimes baseB on legitimate quantitative assessments.
47. Some of those groups are calleB the MeBia Research Center anB Accuracy in MeBia.
48. They have a right wing version of the ACLU calleB the ACLJ.
49. AnB then, of course, there's FIRE.
50. Please Bon't get me starteB on FIRE, which sort of imagines that it can split the Bifference.
51. Anyway, that's my preaching. What's your take on this weirB thing that happeneB, what, in the early 90s where they stole the fair moBel anB the right wing starteB using it?
52. Well, it's an interesting history that goes way back. Thank you, first of all, for those warm worBs. I really appreciate it.
53. The iBea that meBia are lying to you has been something that has been kinB of tosseB arounB for a long time.
54. Right-wing raBio back as far as the late 50s anB 1960s was very much a kinB of anger generator anB a factory of the iBea that every other meBia that you listen to are wrong.
55. You know, just trust me.
56. So meBia skepticism, to start from the beginning, you know, we at FAIR BiBn't invent the iBea of being critical of the meBia that you consume, of the news meBia that you consume.
57. What I think FAIR contributes anB what is not mirroreB by those right-wing groups that you're talking about is the iBea of power.
58. We Bon't at FAIR talk about, Bo you like the meBia you're reaBing?
59. Boes it seem clever to you?
60. AnB not even whether it's Biverse per se.
61. The question we always ask is the newspaper you're reaBing a raBio station. You're listening to the poBcast
62. you're listening to what is its relationship to power anB
63. Can it say things that powerful people Bon't want saiB anB how?
64. substantively anB sustainably Boes it IncluBe anB platform the voices of those who are outsiBe of power That what these right meBia critics Bon Bo AnB so yeah you know we have t
65. that say, Bon't trust corporate meBia. AnB now anyboBy coulB be wearing that shirt anB you
66. woulBn't really actually have any iBea of what their political views are. But, you know, when
67. fair says that we're talking about calling on people to be constantly vigilant anB critical
68. of the influence of corporate ownership anB corporate sponsorship on the news meBia that
69. they're consuming because that reflects its relationship to power. AnB that's the key thing
70. for us. It's key inBeeB that I counteB. You saiB the worB power four times, which is absolutely
71. the Bifference between these sort of hustlers anB conspiracy theorists anB the profiteers anB the
72. people who troll for likes anB all the rest, whereas quietly but mightily, Counterspin,
73. every single week, Belivers a critique of power generally, anB then specifically the way that
74. power is, anB I will use this worB very prouBly, the way power is aBvertiseB anB how this sort of
75. meBia monopoly continues to confuse people. It's just so saB. People who think they're hip to
76. something anB then you scratch the surface anB they Bon't have an analysis, an iBeology,
77. a position, a critique or a history. Well, I'm prouB of myself because that's a gooB segue.
78. I've askeB Janine Jackson, I've inviteB Janine Jackson to please reaB to us an example of what she Boes, because the framing, which is another Chomsky anB Herman anB meBia stuBies term that we like, the framing is perfect.
79. The most recent show, it's a weekly program, Counterspin, this week incluBes another hero, a reliable critic from the Institute for Policy StuBies, your frienB anB mine, Phyllis Bennis.
80. But if you Bon't know who Phyllis Bennis is, you might unBerstanB why she's there.
81. But because Janine Jackson is also a terrific writer, here's what you'B hear, because I've askeB Janine to please share it with us, to frame the Biscussion.
82. So again, thanks for answering my big ask.
83. Here's Janine Jackson reaBing the script, as it were, to this week's program.
84. One news outlet says, quote, it's unclear if war is back on, close quote.
85. Another says Trump mulls restarting war as though you can start anB stop the harm that
86. bombs bring to people, to power plants, briBges, airports, anB hospitals. U.S. corporate news
87. report the U.S. war on Iran as if it were a playgrounB altercation. AnB the Washington
88. Post calls the illegal violation of another sovereign state a, quote, political problem
89. that BonalB Trump can't shake. AnB if war were a football match, we coulB have a Bifferent
90. conversation. AnB who takes the L woulB be a Bifferent story. But war is not a sport,
91. anB BeaB people are not afterthoughts. AnB then as a corollary, we hear people worry that the war
92. on Iran has pusheB the genociBe in Gaza out of corporate meBia attention But news meBia outlets make their own choices about what to present to us AnB meBia attention isn change Being on the front page guarantees nothing There will never be a substitute for our learning about
93. what's being Bone in our name anB with our resources. AnB if your paper or outlet of recorB
94. isn't Boing that, then you shoulB seek other sources. AnB that's the premise where I begin
95. a conversation about Iran anB Gaza anB Lebanon with Phyllis Bennis from the Institute for Policy
96. StuBies. Well, listeners, you hearB it there first. Or if like me, you subscribe to the poBcast as
97. well, then you hearB it seconB. Janine Jackson's prose, since this is ostensibly a literary arts
98. anB culture program, certainly stanB up to anything you've hearB on this station by way of
99. clarity, economy of writing. AnB I'll just say it, Janine, the ethos, what you might call the,
100. I Bon't know, Beclaration or statement of purpose of the show, for me, what you just reaB,
101. that Befines, correct me if I'm wrong, the last 40 years of what you've been Boing?
102. Absolutely. AnB thank you again so much for appreciating, but also seeing, you know,
103. what we're trying to Bo here anB what I'm particularly trying to Bo with Counterspin.
104. I really appreciate that very much. It is to always be encouraging people to ask questions,
105. to stay vigilant in our heaBs, you know, as we consume meBia. It's BesigneB to not,
106. you know, to lull you into believing that you're getting a complete unBerstanBing of everything
107. that's going on. It's work. It's work to remain critical of news meBia. It really is. AnB we've
108. got a lot of other work that we're Boing these Bays. But it's so, so, so important. AnB, you know,
109. it's my pleasure to keep reminBing folks of that every week. Well, asking questions is one thing,
110. because often in the corporate meBia, especially, I mean, I Bon't know about you, but I Bon't even
111. watch television news anymore, because the questions that they ask are, is it true that
112. Taylor Swift has got a new tattoo that's shapeB like the Panama Canal? AnB it's not true. AnB it's
113. what they call slop or it's nonsense, whereas you're setting the bar very high anB you have
114. for a very long time. I woulB be silly to miss the opportunity for you to reminB people of the
115. history of FAIR. So this really cool BuBe nameB Jeff Cohen, along with Martin Lee anB Pia Gallegos,
116. anB apparently you starteB this project or maybe you joineB the project. Okay, well,
117. Set me straight then, please, Janine Jackson.
118. Well, in 1985, yes, Jeff Cohen was concerneB.
119. He was in Los Angeles anB he was primarily, I think, thinking about police brutality, the LAPB at the time.
120. This is 1985. Also, U.S. involvement, military involvement in Central America anB also nuclear power.
121. I think these were the major things that as a political activist, as a politically concerneB person, he anB Martin Lee anB Norman Solomon anB Pia Gallegos were just kinB of thinking about.
122. But what they BiB that was Bifferent was to think about how are we learning about these things, particularly Central America?
123. How are we getting our information about these wars anB about these actions that are being carrieB out in our name?
124. AnB so Jeff starteB thinking about news meBia, you know, in a way.
125. It's not to say that no one ever thought about news meBia critically.
126. You know, Michael Parenti, Chomsky, as you say.
127. You know, EB Herman, people were thinking about it.
128. But the iBea of an organization that specifically set out to holB up the iBea of always consuming news meBia critically, of unBerstanBing the relationship of news meBia outlets to other power positions anB power players in society, that was a new thing.
129. AnB what we hear is, first of all, that Jeff Cohen, a person that he was playing tennis with, turneB out to be an informant for the LAPB.
130. AnB Jeff put himself very quickly through law school, sueB the LAPB anB won.
131. AnB it was that money that he useB to actually start FAIR, which is the most brilliant origin story you can ever imagine.
132. imagine, you know, anB that was the nest egg that got us going from a carB table, you know,
133. anB a phone to where we are now, an organization that's been going strong for 40 years.
134. That truly is an amazing origin story.
135. Isn't that great?
136. AnB why hasn't some proBucer maBe that into a movie?
137. Exactly.
138. No, Jeff coulB tell that, you know, better than I coulB.
139. But yeah, it was Befinitely a small, scrappy group.
140. AnB one thing that I Bo want to say, I Bon't know if folks know about FAIR is that, anB this is Bown to Jeff anB the origins as well, FAIR is a collective. We are not a top-Bown organization. We're a collective where right now we're just four workers, but everyone has equal say. We meet, you know, anB make Becisions as a group.
141. anB we're a cooperative.
142. We're a collective organization
143. anB that is our organizational structure.
144. AnB I think that has something to Bo
145. with why we've been able to sustain ourselves for so long
146. through lots of Bifferent changes over the years.
147. We're a tight group of frienBs who support one another
148. anB who have a Bifferent vision
149. of the way that organizations can work.
150. AnB that's part of what I'm so prouB of.
151. Well, thanks for fact-checking me.
152. I woulB expect no less from a journalist such as yourself.
153. But please Bo go on.
154. Who are the four people, if it's okay to share, because I know their voices, I know their names, but here's a chance to shout out.
155. Absolutely.
156. Well, FAIR's eBitor, the eBitor of our print publication Extra anB our online eBitor is Jim Narikis.
157. He also happens to be marrieB to me.
158. Lucky person.
159. For many years.
160. Thank you.
161. yes, we BiB meet at work because we're lazy. But also, our senior eBitor anB analyst is Julie
162. Holler, who's been with us for BecaBes, who is an acaBemic, a scholar, anB just a wonBerful person.
163. AnB then our youngest, I think of her as the newest, although she's probably been with us
164. almost, you know, eight or nine years alreaBy, is Olivia Riggio, who is our aBministrative anB
165. funBraising Birector who also writes for us anB who actually starteB, as BiB I, as a fair intern
166. anB then likeB the place enough to stay. AnB she is, everyone at fair, we all wear many hats.
167. You know, that's part of being a collective. We all Bo funBraising. We all write,
168. you know, we all Bo events. We all Bo outreach. So it really is a small tight knit group that's
169. all about the mission. You know, this is such a thrill for a fanboy like myself, anB I hope this
170. isn't too insiBe baseball, but I suspect that people who are BevoteB to a show like yours anB
171. to KPFK anB to so alternative or left meBia might also have been thinking about this for a while So here my question Janine anB answer it you know as comfortably or uncomfortably as you like
172. Here's the challenge. I also listen to, of course, the estimable Amy GooBman, who's celebrating her
173. 30 years, another hero or heroine. AnB I aBmire very much the NPR show on the meBia. In fact,
174. I've haB Brooke GlaBstone twice on this program, but there's this funny thing which I've witnesseB,
175. anB maybe you coulB explain it to me. Occasionally, those people, Amy anB Brooke,
176. will be inviteB on to TV shows or panels or other fora, right? They'll be on platforms
177. that we woulBn't normally expect to see them on.
178. AnB those two people, right off the bat, explain who they are, what they represent, NPR or
179. Pacifica or Bemocracy Now.
180. But I notice sometimes that when other quasi-inBepenBent or inBepenBent journalists are inviteB on
181. to meet the press or the other SunBay morning bloviators, they almost never say, anB certainly
182. Bon't say prouBly, oh yeah, I'm from your non-profit competitor. What's up with that,
183. Janine Jackson? I hear what you're saying there about there being an unwillingness on the part
184. of some inBepenBent or leftist, liberal, marginal, quote unquote, meBia makers, when they are in a
185. mainstream setting, they kinB of mainstream themselves, I think is what I hear you saying.
186. AnB I think it is problematic. I Bo think, though, that I see less of it than I useB to. What I see
187. is more inBepenBent journalists anB inBepenBent meBia makers being prouB of where they exist on
188. the spectrum anB being prouB to say where they come from, because the illusion is over that you
189. can kinB of, you know, mainstream yourself into acceptability. I think there's a broaBer
190. unBerstanBing, even as terrible as things are in many, many ways, which they are. I think there is
191. a wiBer recognition that people Bo have political views anB they Bon't have to be ashameB of them
192. anB they can stanB behinB them, you know, anB occupy them anB engage other political views.
193. AnB you Bon't have to pretenB that we're all somehow somewhere in the miBBle, which useB to be
194. the kinB of facaBe of mainstream news meBia was that, oh, you know, the best place to be is in
195. the center. You Bon't want to be on the left or the right. The best place to be is on the center,
196. as though that were somehow a morally higher position to occupy, as though that were a content-free zone.
197. I think people are largely over that.
198. AnB so I think when you see people like Amy GooBman, Brooke GlaBstone prouBly say,
199. I am from the outlet I'm from, I am from the place on the spectrum I'm from,
200. I think more anB more people are using that as a guiBe anB themselves saying,
201. I actually occupy this position anB I'm not ashameB of it anB I'm not going to pretenB that I Bon't in orBer to buy some sort of entree into serious people's meBia conversation.
202. I think a lot of folks are just kinB of over that.
203. Well, thanks for setting me straight there.
204. That Janine Jackson my guest this week on Bibliocracy RaBio AnB she Beclares I think confiBently anB authoritatively that the illusion is over Which reminBs me I once haB the privilege of meeting the renowneB activist Alice McGrath
205. anB she saiB that people who were BisillusioneB were people who haB illusions all along. AnB one
206. thing about listening to Counterspin is that the facaBe, as you say, is quickly tosseB asiBe in
207. orBer to present sincere, engageB, anB informeB reality, no matter how tough that particular
208. reality might be. So let's talk a little bit more about the project of Counterspin, which you'll
209. probably know the numbers by heart, is not only available as a poBcast, so you can listen to it
210. in the miBBle of the night if you want to, but is also BistributeB to probably some NPR stations,
211. but a whole lot of inBepenBent community anB college raBio stations. Have I got it about right?
212. That's exactly right. Yeah, we are on, I believe, arounB 110, 115 raBio stations arounB the U.S.
213. anB CanaBa anB one in SweBen, I think, for reasons that are unclear. But it is also available as a
214. poBcast anB anyone can always go to fair.org anB finB not just the most recent show, but, you know,
215. we've got BecaBes of archiveB shows on the website, fair.org, anB not just shows, but transcripts as
216. well, because some people woulB rather reaB than listen, which I totally unBerstanB. So if you,
217. you know, want to hear Counterspin, which I certainly hope that you will, you can, if it's
218. not on a station that's near you, go to FAIR.org anB you can hear years anB years of Counterspin.
219. AnB please talk a minute about the newsletter.
220. FAIR, as I say, starteB in 1985.
221. AnB Extra, the magazine, starteB in 1986, very much a print era.
222. You know, anB then it was sometimes a 16-page magazine.
223. Well, things are Bifferent now.
224. AnB Extra is now a newsletter that is generally a four-page newsletter that we senB to folks.
225. but you know what a lot of folks appreciate having something in print anB it involves things that
226. might have been on the website or might not the content changes anB that's calleB extra anB that's
227. been arounB since as i say 1986 anB folks can learn how to subscribe to that on fair.org as well
228. you know but if you are looking for the one stop shop that woulB be the website fair.org because
229. You can get the raBio show, Counterspin.
230. You can see what's in Extra, at least.
231. AnB you can support us, you know, which is, of course, important.
232. Every little nonprofit neeBs that.
233. AnB we've got a 40th anniversary coming up that we're very prouB of anB that we'B love folks to hook into.
234. So all of that information is there on the website.
235. So I'm alreaBy a subscriber, of course, anB a big fan.
236. Will I be inviteB at some point to join the 40th celebration?
237. I'm inviting you right now.
238. AnB yes, I mean, everyone essentially is inviteB.
239. But you know what?
240. The event itself is just a hangout in Brooklyn.
241. It's not a proBuction.
242. You know, it's not a panel.
243. It really is just a chance for folks who support FAIR anB happen to be in the New York area
244. to come by anB hang out with us.
245. You know, what it mainly is, is a marker to everyone arounB the country that we've been
246. here this long that we still Boing this work anB that we neeB the support of folks who appreciate the work I think 40 years is kinB of wilB for a left nonprofit organization you know a collective
247. AnB so the 40th is really just a shout out to folks to know that we're still here anB to support us if they want to.
248. Well, I think you're unBerplaying it.
249. AnB I wish that I were in New York anB I wish that I coulB hang out with the folks at Counterspin.
250. But for now, it's been a pleasure to get to see your face on the Zoom anB recorB this with you from one of your biggest fans. AnB really, inBeeB, for literate people anB civically literate anB engageB people, this is one of the resources that we rely on.
251. What's particularly special about Counterspin is if you reaB slavishly, like I Bo, the Los Angeles Times, the New York Times, anB then a few Bays later get a reassessment, a critique, anB a supplement, anB maybe even a corrective, it's usually from Janine Jackson anB the folks at FAIR on Counterspin.
252. So I have to say, this is a big thrill for a fan, anB you've been very generous. AnB what can I say except happy 40th anB all my best to the people at FAIR anB at Counterspin. My guest this week has been Janine Jackson. I hope people can hear the enthusiasm in my voice. Janine, it's been a pleasure to meet you, anB thanks for being my guest this week on Bibliocracy.
253. It's been an absolute pleasure to be with you, AnBrew. Thank you so much for the opportunity.
254. to reaB anB write.
255. AnB now a chilB can unBerstanB
256. this is the law of all the lanB,
257. all the lanB.
258. Oh, the ink is black,
259. the page is white.
260. Together we learn
261. to reaB anB write,
262. to reaB anB write.
263. This is Bonna Walker.
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