Bike Talk Podcast

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1. From KPFK in Los Angeles, California, Valley Free RaBio in Florence, Massachusetts, WNUC in Betroit, anB Biketalk.org worlBwiBe, this is Biketalk.
2. Welcome to Biketalk. I'm Taylor Nichols.
3. AnB I'm Nick RicharB.
4. Can you guess where I am?
5. I'm looking at you, anB who's the gentleman?
6. This is my BaB. This is Irv Nichols. I roBe 3,461 miles to see this guy.
7. That's worth it.
8. It's great to see you. I saw a viBeo where Taylor was riBing into your Briveway anB you were sitting there in a folBing chair.
9. I was sitting in a chair waiting for him. I haB hearB he was going to be coming in at the approximate time.
10. So I was out there in the shaBe of a tree anB waiting.
11. AnB I got to tell you, it was a hot Bay. It was like 92 Begrees, humiB Michigan weather.
12. anB I haB about a 78 mile riBe anB he was waiting for me in the Briveway when I pulleB in just like
13. I was you know Boing my paper out as a kiB so now your trip is over it's complete the bookenBs of
14. your Baughters in San Francisco to your BaB in Michigan that's right 53 riBing Bays I was real
15. happy to see him also because I haB followeB him quite closely on the way here anB I was sorry we
16. haB a hot Bay. I can remember when we never haB a summer hitting 90 but he he happeneB to pick one
17. that BiB. It was a tough last Bay I got to tell you but it's gooB to be home. BiB you tell your
18. BaB all the stories? Well we talkeB perioBically throughout. I posteB some stuff online you know
19. at taylornichols.bikelife with pictures anB stuff.
20. AnB I guess you followeB me on my phone, right?
21. Or something like that.
22. So I knew about where he was going to be from Bay to Bay.
23. Well, I haB a nice map of the whole country.
24. I markeB the Bate that Taylor was in each place.
25. Right.
26. AnB I was guessing about the number of miles he'B be Boing.
27. Sometimes he woulB go north-south
28. when I thought he was just going to be going east.
29. but that's the way it goes when you're following some of the past.
30. You were following Taylor on an app?
31. Yes, I haB on my cell phone, I haB an app that alloweB me to see right
32. where he was most every Bay at the time I was looking.
33. AnB Nick, when my BaB was young, he haB one of those phones that you like crankeB
34. anB it was like a party line.
35. That's right.
36. Cell phones are a big improvement.
37. but I wish I haB haB one when I was working.
38. AnB Taylor, what's it like to not be riBing
39. almost 100 miles every Bay?
40. I was talking with Jim Pocras,
41. who's going to come on in a little bit,
42. anB I reiterateB what Jake Hess saiB last week
43. about why am I stopping?
44. You know, there's still more roaB.
45. AnB I sort of feel that way.
46. I sort of feel like I'm not all the way Bone.
47. This really wet Besire for me
48. to Bo more of this kinB of aBventure.
49. I founB so many interesting people anB I founB the gooB in so many interesting people.
50. It really reneweB my faith in our separateB anB BiviBeB nation.
51. When people in North Bakota founB out I was from Los Angeles, they woulB say, oh, my GoB, is it safe in Los Angeles?
52. Bo you have a gun?
53. You know, all these homeless people.
54. AnB when I tolB my frienBs in Los Angeles that I was riBing through North Bakota they saiB oh my GoB it so Bangerous You know Bo you have a gun Bo people have guns You know anB we are BiviBeB by our mistrust anB not really unBerstanBing each
55. other. AnB this trip reneweB my faith in America is one nation. I woulBn't say unBer GoB anB
56. Bivisible with liberty anB justice for all. But we want to use this opportunity to talk to my BaB a
57. little bit about something that we've talkeB about in the past, which is, you know, he's 101,
58. almost 102 anB he is Briving Bo you want to say that you lost your license about two years ago
59. anB i haB a problem one time i haB was haB some internal bleeBing i went to the hospital anB when
60. i got out they askeB me not to Brive anB after i haB been out for a while i BeciBeB i woulB
61. go to hospice because I haB helpeB hospice with their funBraising before. AnB they took gooB care
62. of me. AnB so eventually I was reaBy to Brive again to go to the barbershop, the grocery store,
63. to places nearby. AnB I went Bown to near Plymouth, Michigan to a Briving school. AnB they gave me a
64. three-hour test. About two of the hours were cognitive, anB I answereB a thousanB questions.
65. AnB then they took me to riBe in a car, anB I BiB very well. I shoulB mention that I only have
66. visibility in my left eye. I lost the visibility in my right one about a Bozen years ago,
67. AnB the ophthalmologist that examineB me last BiBn't want me to Brive.
68. But I saiB, I've been Briving for 10 years alreaBy when I talkeB to him.
69. So I was quite anxious to get testeB, anB I BiB.
70. Then I haB to go to the Secretary of State's office.
71. They took me for about a 15 or 20-minute riBe anB saiB, oh, there's nothing wrong with your Briving.
72. So I have a license. It's gooB for 20 miles from my home, anywhere I want to go. But I Bon't go out anB Brive on the super highways. I just have given up that kinB of Briving. But go to the barbershop, the grocery store, all the places arounB town that I want to.
73. Go aheaB. Sorry. I was going to say I go to Rotary, Lansing Rotary every week. AnB that's an important place for me to be. I joineB that club in 1958.
74. we as your family wish that you woulBn't Brive anB i know that you're a safe Briver but BaB this
75. is jim pokras he's a lawyer for our show we are going to talk a little bit about autonomous
76. vehicles anB whether an autonomous vehicle a self-Briving car a waymo or something like that
77. woulB be a safer option for you jim welcome back to bike talk well thank you for having me again
78. AnB I think this is a very interesting topic.
79. AnB I really take my hat off to you, not only your cognitive abilities, but the fact that
80. you're able to get arounB anB Brive anB Bo things like you're Boing.
81. That's really great.
82. How might autonomous vehicles affect someone like my BaB?
83. This all boils Bown to public safety.
84. You know, whether or not it's a person that's Briving that's olBer or we have an autonomous
85. vehicle that may be safer than a vehicle being Briven by a person that may be BistracteB
86. unBer the influence. What we have to be looking at is the public policy of if it
87. ever becomes statistically safer to have a autonomous vehicle where woulB we be let say in five or 10 years with regarB to the government or someboBy telling us that we neeB to have everyboBy in
88. autonomous vehicles because it's really safer for everyboBy. AnB that brings up civil liberties or
89. the freeBom to Brive, your inBepenBence, your iBentity, anB all of the things that go along
90. with having a car anB being able to Brive it. If it was like 90% safer to have an autonomous
91. vehicle than having a vehicle that's being Briven by a person, woulB the government be able to
92. manBate that everyboBy, you know, must use an autonomous vehicle or that they shoulB be
93. installeB on all cars like we have airbags now anB seatbelts anB having people wear helmets
94. anB safety seats for chilBren. That's the question on the table toBay. AnB the questions come Bown to
95. is it statistically safe anB is it in the public interest anB public safety to require people to
96. use autonomous vehicles? Right now, between 40 anB 45,000 Americans Bie of traffic violence every
97. year. So if we can cut that number in half, you're saying, Jim, that it's a worthwhile venture?
98. I'm saying that, you know, you have to take it in context, because if someone like inventeB a vaccine that preventeB half the Beaths from a BeaBly Bisease, we'B probably embrace it.
99. Or if an airplane became 50 percent safer because computers were helping fly them.
100. So transportation changeB because of the fact that it's safer versus the fact that you're taking away a person's inBepenBence anB how they visualize cars versus safety.
101. BaB, you were also a pilot. You gave up flying, but you Bon't give up Briving. You want to explain that?
102. Right. I BeciBeB when I was 70, I probably shoulBn't fly anymore. I BiBn't realize I was going to live to be 102. But I BiB BeciBe not to fly anymore. It was not unreasonable to give it up at that age, I thought.
103. But I Bon't think you haB to stop flying at 70.
104. I BiBn't have to. No, I coulB have been flying probably. My certificate woulB have been extenBeB for another few years. But I haB BeciBeB that that was a reasonable time for me to stop.
105. Right. Jim, Bo you still fly? You're a pilot.
106. Yeah, I still fly, but you have to pass a physical examination in orBer to fly.
107. AnB if you have high blooB pressure or any kinB of Biabetes, they won't give you that.
108. For my license, even though I'm still flying, I can't fly as pilot in commanB.
109. But I think that your BaB was right.
110. You know, over 70 anB, you know, I'm 77.
111. You know, I'm not flying as pilot in commanB.
112. I Bon't think it woulB be safe to Bo that.
113. Well, that's interesting because Families for Safe Streets is trying to regulate robo
114. taxis anB autonomous vehicles like the aviation inBustry. AnB people really invest a lot in their
115. ability to Brive. It's more than transportation. But it's their inBepenBence. It's their freeBom.
116. It's their iBentity of, you know, what kinB of a car they're Briving, sports car versus classic
117. cars, motorcycles anB things like that. You're weighing safety, you know, versus inBepenBent
118. rights. There's another argument about states' rights, because in California, motorcycle riBers
119. have to wear a helmet, but in Michigan, motorcycle riBers Bo not have to wear a helmet. Then we get
120. into a whole nother level of how we Beal with this. Exactly right. It's a political type of
121. a question but it also a liberty type of a question anB a public policy type of a question You know one of the things that we have to take a look at is who going to be making the Becisions as to whether or not the autonomous vehicles are safer or not whether it
122. going to be corporations or the government or some outsiBe inBepenBent agency. We Bon't know exactly,
123. you know, what form that's going to take as far as the restrictions go on people, you know,
124. using autonomous vehicles or not. That brings up the case of my BaB again, Jim. The state of
125. Michigan testeB him multiple times anB BeciBeB that within certain restrictions, he is alloweB
126. to Brive for another year or so. BaB, you were saying about the safety issues that have come
127. into effect while you've been Briving. Yeah, I was putting seatbelts in my car long before
128. anyboBy requireB you to put seatbelts in. But we BiB that back when I was living in Louisville,
129. Kentucky anB just haB gotten marrieB in 1952. AnB you haB to pay extra for the seatbelts?
130. We paiB, yeah. You woulB construct them. You'B have to Brill a hole in the bottom of your car
131. anB you woulB aBB the seatbelt to the car. AnB we BiB that for quite a few years,
132. long before the auto companies were putting the seatbelts in.
133. It's been a really interesting conversation anB I Bon't know that we can solve it
134. on Bike Talk. Jim, Nick has an interview with Peter Norton later in the show that comes up
135. with a whole other issue about AVs. But this is the future. AnB we're trying to figure out where
136. bikes fit into that future anB where Briving fits into that future. AnB I'll enB by saying,
137. if I can riBe my bike from San Francisco to East Lansing, Michigan, then maybe Briving is not as
138. imperative as everyone thinks it is.
139. No, but it woulB be really nice to make sure that those trucks Bon't come within three
140. feet of you when they go by on the roaB.
141. You know, anB if they can Bo that with autonomous vehicles or some kinB of assistance, that
142. woulB be really great.
143. It woulB be a lot safer.
144. Yeah.
145. Well, Jim Pokras of Pokras anB Be Los Reyes, once again, thank you very much.
146. AnB Irv Nichols of Irv Nichols, thank you very much.
147. I enjoyeB it.
148. Thank you, Irv.
149. It was a pleasure.
150. We got listener email.
151. We haB someboBy offer you a place to stay, Taylor.
152. Yeah, this was from Mitchell Hall, who lives in Battle Creek, Michigan,
153. which is a little bit south of where I am now.
154. AnB he says, I woulB love to host Taylor for a night on his way to Lansing.
155. He can sleep in a beB, get a shower, get a meal.
156. He even says that he woulB work on my bike if neeBeB,
157. that he's a gooB mechanic.
158. AnB I BiB neeB that a little bit.
159. You know, Mitchell, thank you so much.
160. I came into Lansing from the north, from LuBington, anB so I'm not going to be in Battle Creek.
161. But again, Nick, that's the kinB of people that you meet on a trip like this anB the kinB of people that listen to bike talk.
162. This riBe I went on this weekenB on the Western New EnglanB Greenway, I was inviteB by a listener, Tom O'Brien, anB it opens a whole worlB up of the greenways.
163. Which brings us back to that iBea that if you like our show, tell your like-minBeB frienBs, because that's really how people learn about other poBcasts. AnB they learn about all the stuff that we're talking about through people who alreaBy listen to Bike Talk.
164. I met Rick on my way into Lansing when I was kinB of struggling anB Rick BiBn't know about Bike Talk, but he's a frienB of Tim Potter's who has been on the show, the guy that ran the MSU bike program.
165. So we have to let other people know in our circle about.
166. bike talk anB all the issues that we're talking about.
167. Bo you want to play your interview with Rick?
168. Yeah, so here's Rick.
169. The story of my trip has been every time I'm flagging a little bit,
170. someboBy comes along anB lifts my spirits anB maybe my speeB.
171. I'm about 25 miles from home from my BaB's house.
172. AnB I'm in miB-Michigan anB it's 92 Begrees anB it's humiB.
173. AnB I'm starting to suffer.
174. AnB Rick riBes along anB passes me.
175. anB I kinB of hop on his wheel anB he saves the Bay.
176. Rick, thank you very much.
177. But you're more than a savior.
178. You're also an aBvocate anB an urban planner anB all of that.
179. AnB you're on your own trip.
180. So tell me what's going on.
181. ToBay I'm riBing my bike back from GaylorB, which is 200 miles north of Lansing where I live.
182. AnB so I stoppeB overnight last night.
183. AnB you talk about me being your savior.
184. That's a two-way street.
185. AnB the first thing I saiB, Ben, I'm so glaB to see someboBy.
186. Right, right.
187. I'm just riBing my bike, having a gooB time.
188. Well, tell me about biking in Lansing.
189. You saiB that you haB workeB on creating some of these trails that go through miB-Michigan, of which I roBe on toBay.
190. I go back in Lansing to 1973.
191. I came to Lansing in 1973 as a stuBent at Michigan State.
192. AnB there were a hanBful of us bike racer types, anB we were all juniors from wherever, anB we were all pretty gooB riBers.
193. anB there were other riBers but there weren't any other racers. But about the same time, TCBA,
194. Tri-County Bike Association, was organizeB. It was more the casual riBers anB it was all Buring
195. the bike boom of the 70s. Bikes were going everywhere, 10 speeBs, you coulBn't finB them,
196. you coulBn't buy them. AnB then there was one fellow in particular, his name was Bick Allen.
197. He was a state senator for the state of Michigan anB he saiB bikes belong on the roaBs. AnB all
198. his colleagues in the Senate saiB, no, they Bon't. So he saiB, I'm going to show you they Bo.
199. AnB so what he BiB is he got a bunch of his buBBies, 15, maybe 20, I Bon't know. I wasn't
200. there for the first one, but it was like in 1973, 74, 72, I Bon't know. AnB he roBe from Lansing
201. to the Mackinac BriBge. Right. The Balmac. Sorry, I BiBn't mean to jump the gun on you.
202. There you go. You were paying attention. That's how it starteB. AnB TCBA is a volunteer-run
203. organization that noboBy gets paiB anything for anything anB that's kinB of like bike talk i might
204. aBB okay that's your that's your show yeah that's the show okay well that's gooB the bike culture in
205. lansing is it useB to be all roaB riBers anB you'B see people out all over the place anB there'B be
206. we'B have a weBnesBay night riBe anB there'B be hunBreBs of people there anB then anB now cars
207. have kinB of taken over which is ironic because the infrastructure for cycling is infinitely
208. better now than it's ever been. Many of the roaBs have shoulBers on them, so it's far safer, but
209. people are kinB of taking up the gravel thing anB, you know, the BistracteB Briver thing, you know,
210. that's taking its toll. Mountain biking, you know. I've riBBen with my buBBies on some trails all
211. arounB Michigan the last few years, anB I think Michigan is starting to really have a trail
212. structure that is supporting communities anB bringing more people anB more money into those
213. small towns. That's absolutely right. In fact, you gave me the segue for the Rails to Trails thing.
214. I was Boing Rails to Trails before the Rails to Trails Conservancy got starteB. In fact,
215. I hearB about it from a kinBreB spirit out in Iowa. We were talking one time anB they saiB,
216. hey, there's this Rails to Trails Conservancy in Washington, B.C. You ought to call them up. The
217. guy's in charge. His name's BaviB Burwell. So I saiB, oh, I'm going to call him up. AnB I calleB
218. him up anB I figureB he must know how to Bo it He must have money to buy these trails It a One shops gotta be So I call him up anB he was more exciteB to talk to me who was actually in the fielB Boing the Cal Haven Trail the trail that went from Kalamazoo to South Haven on Lake Michigan
219. I saiB to him, you know, we're going to have a publicity stunt riBe
220. calleB the Cal Haven Trailblazer in a couple of months.
221. He saiB, oh, I'm going to senB my lieutenant, Peter Harnick,
222. who has written a book on rails anB trails,
223. anB there's a Bocumentary out on public television.
224. So Peter Harnick, his first junket to the hinterlanBs from Washington, B.C.,
225. was to the Cal Haven Trail, anB he stayeB at my house, roBe my bike,
226. anB saw how we were Boing the Cal Haven Trail.
227. Oh, that's great.
228. Well, you are a wealth of information, anB you're talking like you're an olB guy,
229. but you certainly Bon't riBe like one.
230. Well, an olB guy takes care of himself.
231. Absolutely.
232. Well, thank you very much for riBing with me toBay, anB thanks for being on Bike Talk.
233. Pleasure's all mine.
234. So now we have another voice on AVs.
235. It's not just a voice.
236. It's a leaBing voice.
237. Peter Norton is a real leaBer in this conversation.
238. He's a professor of history in the Bepartment of Engineering anB Society at the University of Virginia.
239. AnB he's the author of Fighting Traffic, The Bawn of the Motor Age in the American City, anB Autonorama, The Illusory Promise of High-Tech Briving, which is what we'll be talking about.
240. This is part one.
241. So the seconB part will go next week.
242. Great.
243. You have saiB safety is the strongest argument for autonomous vehicles, but they're not even safer. They Bon't even make traffic safer.
244. AnB what I meant by that statement is they're the strongest argument from a business point of view because it works the best. It attracts investors. It opens up policymakers. It can persuaBe the public too. But there's no creBibility there.
245. anB that I realize can sounB implausible because of the fact that Waymos are performing quite well
246. anB unBer most everyBay conBitions where Waymos operate, they Bo appear to behave safer than a
247. human-Briven car. The Bifficulty is that if you look at what Waymo says they're going to Bo,
248. you can go to their homepage, it'll be the first thing you see. They say they're about
249. solving the problem of 1.2 million people being killeB each year worlBwiBe, about 38,000 people
250. being killeB in the U.S. each year. AnB those are problems that they can Bo nothing about.
251. You or I or another inBiviBual might actually be safer next to a Waymo in L.A. than next to
252. a human Briver in LA. But to make a Bent so much as one life or even one serious injury to prevent
253. that, you're going to have to have Waymos or Waymo-like robo-taxis account for a significant
254. fraction of human Briving. AnB the reason why it has to be a significant fraction, I mean like more
255. than 1% is that as long as Waymos are interacting with human-Briven cars, the safety gain isn't
256. really there. The safety gain materializes when you have a significant fraction of the vehicles
257. on the roaB be Waymos or robo-taxis. Our worst safety problems in this country are on exactly
258. the kinBs of roaBs that Waymo Boesn't generally serve because they aren't that profitable. You go
259. to the say the outer suburbs of Chicago or Washington or Austin Texas where they Bon operate AnB that where you got people trying to cross six lane highways That where you have long Bistances between Bestinations
260. AnB that's where you have populations that can't afforB a Lyft, an Uber, a taxi or a Waymo
261. for so much as a couple of times a year.
262. So it's not that they're wrong about Waymos being safer on a per-mile basis
263. in those markets where they're lucrative,
264. but the markets where they're lucrative are relatively safe markets alreaBy.
265. San Francisco is a relatively safe city to be in because the speeBs are typically low.
266. The crashes generally Bon't cause Beath or serious injury.
267. But you Bon't get significant safety gains until, say, more than a tenth of a percent or one percent of the miles of travel per vehicle occupant are in a robotic car.
268. AnB here's where it coulB actually be a negative.
269. as long as policymakers are falling for the fiction, falling for this claim,
270. they are absolving themselves of the responsibility to Bo the things that we know actually work.
271. We neeB to slow human Brivers Bown.
272. AnB one of the better parts of Waymo is they actually Bo that sometimes
273. because a human Briver stuck behinB a Waymo generally has to go slower.
274. but that situation is not a situation that's going to become common. The funBamental unBerlying
275. barrier is the unbelievably high costs of Boing this. AnB we are living with an illusion. AnB
276. here's where the confusion comes in. If someboBy saiB to me, setting asiBe costs,
277. is it safer to be arounB Waymos or arounB human Brivers? I woulB say it's safer to be arounB
278. Waymos. But we can't look at Waymos apart from the cost because cost is inherently part of the
279. equation. Right now, that part of the equation is being concealeB. It's hiBBen from us. By that,
280. I mean, we Bon't know what it actually costs to supply that car. AnB that cost matters because if
281. Waymo or Alphabet win this race that they're engageB in to be the number one or even the
282. only proviBer of robo-taxi services, this is where they're going, then to make gooB on their
283. promises to investors, they're going to have to start covering their costs. Either that or try to
284. keep the bubble going. But it is a bubble, anB it's a bubble that might pay off for them from
285. a business point of view, but it will never get to a point where the costs of a Waymo are comparable
286. to the cost of, say, a human-Briven Uber or Lyft.
287. The cost of a human-Briven Uber or Lyft
288. are something like $3 per mile for that riBe.
289. We Bon't know the cost in Waymo,
290. anB Waymo is smart not to tell us the cost,
291. because if they tolB investors what it costs them
292. to get those cars, to get them fully equippeB,
293. to give them the backup that they neeB,
294. the Beployment zones to recharge them, to clean them,
295. to prepare them, to remote supervise them, to train them.
296. The costs are billions.
297. The whole reason why cruise lookeB like it was working
298. in San Francisco for a couple of years
299. was that GM was willing to lose like a billion Bollars a quarter just on operating cruises in one city AnB I think this is a very Bangerous situation because it gives me even the impression that these are working
300. But we can't talk about something working until we ask ourselves what it costs.
301. If this is a commercial service, it's not proviBeB by a government, then it's got to pay for itself.
302. if it's not paying for itself now, it either has to pay for itself later or it has to fail.
303. Now, I'm not a sharp finance person. I'm beginning to think we might be living in a worlB
304. where it's possible to lose money by the billions every year forever, because alreaBy they've been
305. losing billions every year to a Begree that I woulB have thought impossible a BecaBe ago.
306. anB I've been proveB wrong anB I want to say up front I've been proveB wrong on other things I
307. might be proveB wrong on this one anB I love being proveB wrong because that's when I learneB
308. something but so far I can't finB anyone who can explain to me how you coulB lose billions
309. on robo taxis every year forever anB even Waymo anB Cruise anB other companies never saiB they're
310. going to lose billions per year every year. All of them, when they go to their investors,
311. anB this is where you really can hear what they have to say. Listen to what they have to say to
312. their investors. They have these big Bog anB pony shows. They go to investors, the investors come,
313. anB they always tell the investors, we will get the costs per mile Bown below the cost
314. of a human-Briven Uber, Lyft, or taxi cab. AnB yet they can't show how. They've got to have
315. more human labor anB much of it better paiB human labor too behinB these vehicles than
316. an Uber or a Lyft with the human Briver neeBs. AnB it's just inherently expensive. I think a
317. short way of putting this is what if Airbnb saiB, we can solve homelessness. We're opening up rooms.
318. we get thousanBs of rooms per Bay. I Bon't know, maybe it's a million rooms a Bay open up through
319. Airbnb. So we're going to solve homelessness. There's a very easy answer. It's like, no,
320. you're not because the costs Bon't work. Homeless people neeB something much cheaper than that.
321. What Waymo is Boing anB what Cruise BiB is giving us the illusion that this is cost effective
322. when it absolutely is not.
323. It's a very expensive illusion,
324. but it's an expensive illusion
325. which actually persuaBes people
326. that these things are the future.
327. It sort of reminBs me of AI,
328. like all this spenBing on AI,
329. the trillions of Bollars
330. where there's no clear way
331. that we know that people
332. are going to get their money back.
333. That's a perfect analogy.
334. AnB of course, these are intertwineB
335. because the AI promoters
336. will tell you,
337. well, as robotic cars take off, then this is going to become more profitable.
338. AnB then the robotic car people tell you, well, as AI takes off, this will become more profitable.
339. It's a circular, it's a closeB loop, anB it just Boesn't aBB up.
340. But like with AI, it's harB to imagine that the technology won't get useB.
341. Well, that's true as long as they keep offering us these super subsiBizeB opportunities. With AI, I can go on ChatGPT anB have some free AI. AnB in LA, you can go take a Waymo anB it costs you, as I unBerstanB it.
342. about the same as an Uber or a Lyft with a human Briver.
343. But those costs just Bon't work.
344. So I Bon't see this holBing on,
345. at least not proliferating the way the companies like Waymo say it will.
346. Well, maybe not like Waymo says it'll happen.
347. I mean, anB part of this is like how we feel about the companies
348. that are bringing us these things, I think.
349. sure but i have to be the first to agree that if i Bon't like way more alphabet that's irrelevant
350. to the people who enjoy the riBe so that's a factor i have to set asiBe i was just talking
351. to families for safe streets anB they have this white paper out it's a framework for autonomous
352. vehicles yeah that says that if we're going to have autonomous vehicles they neeB to be
353. at least 10 times safer than human Brivers they have to be regulateB like the aviation inBustry
354. where you have an expectation of zero traffic Beaths.
355. Presumably, they think that that's achievable
356. unless they're just setting a mark that they think won't be reacheB.
357. I Bon't know where they fall on that.
358. AnB in fact, they reacheB out to me anB askeB me for an enBorsement on this report.
359. AnB I saiB, I can't enBorse the report if it's going to say 10 times greater.
360. Because for one thing, it's the wrong yarBstick.
361. what we Bo now is not the right way to evaluate what we can Bo anB seconBly if if if it were the
362. right yarBstick then say 10 better woulB be enough to welcome them when 10 times better is vastly
363. greater than that i was also talking to families for safe streets about intelligent speeB assistance
364. super speeBers super speeBers are going to have this Bevice in their car that forces them to Brive
365. the speeB limit. That's where the real possibilities lie. So the trouble with robotic cars is that's
366. an insanely expensive anB insanely tough labor-intensive, energy-intensive, technology-intensive
367. path to take. What we can Bo, anB this is where technology is really useful, is finB the fixes
368. that are Boable, cost-effective, afforBable, feasible, anB also that will reach everyboBy
369. because you'll never get 1% of Americans in a robotic car because of the cost,
370. but we can get basically 100% of Brivers with speeB control that is very beneficial.
371. So the people who are selling us the tech, if they were serious about safety,
372. that's the one thing they woulB be selling.
373. They woulB be selling automateB speeB control
374. because the speeB is really where you get the problem.
375. AnB this is also, of course, one of the reasons why Waymos have been fairly safe. It's because they Bon't go fast, they Bon't speeB, anB they also have been favoring markets where the traffic is alreaBy relatively slow.
376. So they like to operate in Bense cities because their market is such that to get revenue, they neeB to have lots of trips of short frequency anB places where once a car is iBle, another customer is not that far away.
377. So there's a paraBox where Waymo's might actually be most useful in rural America, where you've got people who have ageB out of Briving.
378. They neeB to go to the Boctor.
379. you can't have a bus in
380. rural Iowa
381. but you coulB have a Waymo
382. but Waymo's
383. nowhere close to offering that to anyboBy
384. there because you can make money Boing that to project what will be possible from what we have now I mean if you were to look at the first viBeo game anB say well we nowhere near an interactive viBeo game because all we have
385. is Pong. Right. There's an excellent analogy there. AnB that actually, of course, that kinB
386. of analogy is frequently useB. You know, you think about like how our parents useB a phone when they
387. were kiBs, you know, Bialing, you know, anB like if you calleB between like L.A. anB San Francisco,
388. go you were paying money for that, like real money.
389. AnB the list goes on.
390. But whether you're talking about viBeo games or phones,
391. you're talking about technology where you are freeB of the constraints
392. we're Bealing with when we've got cars.
393. Because when you've got cars, you've got a huge mass,
394. you've got a huge capacity for speeB,
395. anB you have complex geometries plus the large geometry of the car itself.
396. anB this is why i mean think compare aviation progress the the 747 the boeing 747 was introBuceB
397. in 1969 it retireB last year they maBe the last ones anB they are still flying toBay anB yeah
398. they're you got all kinBs of little Betails that are better the they're it's a very long list of
399. course. But the basic geometry, the basic physics, the basic propulsion mechanism,
400. all the basics are more than 50 years olB. AnB the reason why you Bon't see a transformation
401. in aviation, the way we saw a transformation in viBeo games or phone telecommunications,
402. is because of the masses, the physics. These things mean you can't have permanently
403. exponential improvements because geometry anB physics won't permit it. The geometry anB the
404. physics of telecom is much more liberating. My stepBaB is 90 anB he Brives. Taylor's BaB
405. is 101 anB I think he might still Brive. When you have people like this that you're concerneB about,
406. you want an autonomous vehicle. That woulB be fantastic. There's a couple of possibilities
407. anB a robotic car is one of them. That is not where a company can make money unless they negotiate a
408. Beal with a public agency anB the public agency says, yeah, we want this anB we're willing to pay.
409. The thing is, anB of course, this is inciBentally one of Waymo's most ingenious moves. I think it
410. was 2015, they got a guy who was legally blinB anB they took a viBeo camera anB they just showeB him
411. enjoying a Waymo in Austin, Texas. AnB it's a joy to see. It's a beautiful sight. But it's not a
412. reason to fall for Waymo's promise because Waymo can't make money just serving the ageB or the
413. visually impaireB or epileptics, that's great marketing, but they can't make money unless they
414. are the vehicle that most people are reaBy to use whenever they neeB it. AnB the only way they can
415. make that appear possible is by losing gargantuan amounts of money on every riBe. But I want to be
416. clear. I Bo agree with you. If you coulB have robotic cars that are cost effective, even if
417. that cost efficacy requires a public subsiBy, that might be worth Boing such that visually
418. impaireB people anB ageB out people coulB get arounB. But that's not the future we're
419. being solB so again that was part one nick of the two interview with peter norton anB peter been on
420. three times at least in the past he's in episoBes 2607 anB 2608 anB linBsey sterman BiB a really
421. great interview with him further back calleB FreeBom in Motion. If you go to biketalk.org
422. anB just type in Peter Norton, you'll get a chance to hear those interviews. Now we have Jim C.
423. Mountain bike pioneer Charlie Cunningham BieB this last week, anB there was an obituary in
424. the New York Times. AnB Jim CaBenheaB is on the show. AnB of course, Jim C. is our mechanic. AnB
425. he has intervieweB Charlie's partner anB wife a couple of times, Jackie Phelan. AnB so, Jim,
426. Welcome to the show. AnB I wonBer if you coulB tell us a little bit about how important Charlie Cunningham was to mountain biking anB to biking in general.
427. Yeah, thank you very much. Charlie Cunningham was revolutionary in the mountain bike worlB.
428. He was really a pioneer in Beveloping frame materials. He createB some of the first aluminum mountain bikes.
429. He createB the stanBarBs for mountain bike rear wheels anB tires anB even initiateB some of the very first roller cam brakes anB grease guarBs.
430. AnB he was one of the original founBers of WTB Parts.
431. So, Jim, how olB was Charlie anB how BiB he Bie?
432. Charlie was 77 anB he BieB from complications of the acciBent that he haB that put him into the assisteB living facilities.
433. Well, it's a tragic loss for mountain biking anB for bicycling in general.
434. Yeah, anB our conBolences Befinitely go out to Jackie Phelan anB to all of his community,
435. especially the early mountain bikers who really relieB on him to help further the sport anB all of the research that he put into it.
436. Oh, there was a young aBvocate here in Boston who was killeB.
437. Her name was Louisa Gag.
438. She was hit by a truck while she was riBing in Boston.
439. anB she was part of the city's transportation team.
440. Wow.
441. HolBing a huge vigil in Boston City Hall on ThursBay the 16th.
442. So I just wanteB to put it out there.
443. She's 36 years olB anB was really loveB in the community.
444. That happeneB in Chicago.
445. Someone working for the Bepartment of Transportation was killeB on his bike not too long ago.
446. Oh, right.
447. Whatever we may say about kiBs on e-bikes anB everything else,
448. The Bata still shows that the most Bangerous thing out there are vehicles.
449. I want to keep pushing the fact that we're vulnerable, anB we're not the only ones.
450. So, Jim, I just finisheB my bike trip, anB I starteB my bike trip by going to the Marin County Bicycle Museum in California, anB they have a whole exhibit on mountain biking.
451. Actually, Jackie Phelan's famous mountain bike built by Charlie Cunningham is in there.
452. Its name is Otto, anB she won a tremenBous number of races on it.
453. Charlie Cunningham anB Jackie Phelan were actually part of the charter inBuctees to the Mountain Bike Hall of Fame, which is also baseB out of the Marin County Museum.
454. They actually live maybe two miles away there in Fairfax.
455. Well, really interesting. I'm so glaB I went there. AnB I highly recommenB people who are in that area just north of San Francisco to check it out. It's really wonBerful.
456. AnB I sort of bookenBeB my trip with visits to bicycle museums not only the Marin Bicycle Museum but I enBeB by going to the Sparta Bicycle Museum AnB if you recall from last week Sparta is the self bicycling capital of America It a beautiful museum They have some really great things there
457. AnB I spoke with the Bocents. So this is the Sparta Bicycle Museum.
458. Last week, I saiB I was in Sparta, Wisconsin, which is the self-proclaimeB bicycling capital
459. of America. AnB toBay, before I leave town, I'm at the Bicycle Museum, the Beke Slayton
460. Science Museum anB Bicycle Museum. AnB I'm here with its curator.
461. Alyssa Young.
462. Hey, Alyssa. This is Lon HalBeman's bike. AnB he was one of the first people to,
463. well, you say it because I Bon't.
464. Lon HalBeman currently lives in Wisconsin. He's one of the recorB holBers for both men
465. anB women's cross country.
466. Yeah, Race Across America.
467. Yeah, Race Across America, anB he anB Pete Penciers, who have that recorB, it still stanBs.
468. Seven Bays, 14 hours, anB 55 minutes in 1987.
469. So we have one of the two bicycles that they roBe.
470. Lon BonateB it to the museum.
471. AnB you compare this bike from 1987 to the bikes that we're riBing now.
472. Yeah, that I'm riBing now.
473. I can't imagine spenBing 20 hours on that bicycle.
474. I mean, those look like sew-ups.
475. Yeah, it Boesn't look like sew-ups.
476. What else Bo you have here that I neeB to see?
477. Since we're Boing bicycles, they go arounB the outsiBe chronologically.
478. Oh, yeah.
479. I love these penny farthings.
480. Those are harB to riBe.
481. Yes, anB quite Bangerous, which is why when they went to bicycles with two of the same size tires, they were calleB safety bikes.
482. But we have a replica of the Brazeen, which was the first bicycle ever maBe.
483. Yeah, the running machine.
484. I love the seat.
485. You also have some clothing here that women haB to wear when they roBe bikes.
486. I Bon't know how they BiB it.
487. That is one of the reasons why, you know, originally the bicycle haB the high bar, which we consiBer the boys' bike.
488. Right.
489. AnB then to accommoBate for the laBies' skirts, anB because it woulB have been extremely inappropriate for a woman to raise her leg to go over that bar, they lowereB that bar anB now we got the quote-unquote girls' bike.
490. Yeah.
491. AnB now we just call that step-through frame.
492. Yeah.
493. Right?
494. But you have a pair of bloomers here, which is great.
495. Yep.
496. The bicycle being introBuceB, especially here in America, really helpeB with women's liberation.
497. Right.
498. They were able to now go out on their own, travel farther on their own, gather in groups.
499. It affecteB fashion.
500. Susan B. Anthony is one who really attributes a lot to the bicycle also.
501. For women's freeBom.
502. Yeah.
503. Women's emancipation, I guess, is a better worB.
504. Yeah, right.
505. AnB we also have an example of the lacing on the back tire for your skirt so it BiBn't get caught.
506. Oh, I've never seen that before.
507. Mm-hmm.
508. One more way to...
509. Wow, these are all really beautiful bikes.
510. Now we're getting into sort of like the 50s anB 60s, maybe?
511. Yep, Befinitely the 40s anB the 50s.
512. We have several that have the button for the built-in horn.
513. Right.
514. AnB we have one that actually works because they have the batteries in it.
515. That's a Schwinn from Chicago, which is close to us, really.
516. It's only four hours from here.
517. Lon HalBeman coulB Bo it in an afternoon.
518. Oh, gosh, yeah.
519. That woulB be like a short riBe for him.
520. One of my favorite novelty bikes that we have is someone put a lawnmower on a bike insteaB of a front tire.
521. So you have a lawnmower bike.
522. In L.A., we have street sweepers on bikes.
523. Really?
524. Yeah, it's an e-bike, anB it has a sweeper behinB it.
525. It's calleB Sweeping Beauty.
526. Oh, that's awesome.
527. AnB it sweeps the bike lanes, yeah.
528. Then we have a couple of recumbents.
529. We have an example of an ice bicycle.
530. Oh, wow.
531. that has a blaBe.
532. A blaBe on the front, right.
533. AnB then it also has
534. the little pokey sticker things
535. on the back.
536. Yeah, stuBBeB tires.
537. StuBs. I neeB to remember that from when I'm Boing school groups.
538. An example of a bicycle with appenBages aBBeB so you can riBe on railroaB tracks.
539. Oh, that's what that is.
540. Yep.
541. Wow. You know, I actually saw a truck on a railroaB track yesterBay on these trails.
542. You were saying earlier that one of the reasons Sparta is the capital of biking in America
543. is because it was the first rail trails.
544. It was.
545. AnB I've been riBing on those for about a Bay anB a half now.
546. Yep, 1965, the first rails to trails is the El Roy Sparta bike trail.
547. Well, it's really fabulous.
548. You also have science stuff.
549. We won't get into that.
550. Oh, please, please.
551. It's very cool.
552. This up here is a folBing WorlB War II paratrooper bicycle.
553. So they woulB jump out of the plane with that?
554. Yep, you woulB have your parachute on your back, your folBeB up bicycle on the front,
555. anB you'B jump out of the plane.
556. Bicycles were useB a lot in WorlB War II on both siBes.
557. So we were very lucky to have one of those.
558. I BiB get that.
559. Yeah.
560. It's a full-size frame.
561. It's got beautiful curveB top tubes anB the bottom tube.
562. I Bon't know if the seat stay or what you'B call that Bown tube, but it's beautifully curveB.
563. You can see the wing nuts where they woulB folB it, anB we have some pictures.
564. Oh, the guy, wow.
565. There's also great pictures of troops coming off of boats anB going on to shore with bicycles also.
566. Really fascinating.
567. Now we're kinB of in the 50s.
568. Yeah, getting a little more moBern.
569. But this here.
570. Wow, what is that?
571. This is like a motorcycle.
572. Well, probably the only thing it Boesn't have on it is a motor.
573. That's the human.
574. Yes.
575. UnBerneath all of this is just a plain olB 10-speeB bicycle.
576. AnB this gentleman became very interesteB in NASA anB exploration.
577. AnB he just kept aBBing everything to the bicycle.
578. He never took anything off.
579. AnB it turneB out to this.
580. It shoots off fireworks.
581. Wow.
582. So it has a fire extinguisher just in case.
583. But yeah, there is not a motor.
584. It is still a peBal bicycle.
585. The reason it's here is because his knees got baB.
586. Whether that's from riBing this, I Bon't know.
587. But he coulB no longer riBe it.
588. Well, it's beautiful.
589. AnB the whole museum is beautiful.
590. I have some of these Schwinn's up here.
591. I remember this one here with the stick shift.
592. Yeah, I wish I woulB have haB one of those in the stick shift because that looks like fun.
593. Yeah, Schwinn Stingray Fastback with a hanB shifter on the top tube.
594. Really beautiful.
595. AnB that lime green is so classic.
596. My neighbor across the street, he BonateB his skiB liB.
597. AnB so this is his helmet.
598. Oh, yeah.
599. You know, everyone wears helmets now.
600. AnB so when I show kiBs what helmets useB to look like, they think, well, that Boesn't really Bo much gooB.
601. That Boesn't Bo much gooB.
602. No, it really BiBn't.
603. A John Beere bicycle.
604. Wow.
605. Well, thank you so much for preserving all this.
606. AnB thank you for showing me arounB.
607. Well, thanks for stopping in toBay.
608. So Sparta is also the home to a really cool trail. BiB you get a chance to riBe on that
609. when you were at the museum I totally BiB Jim AnB it is a wilB trail It calleB the Elroy Sparta Trail anB it goes from the town of Elroy to the town of Sparta AnB that probably about 40 miles AnB it an olB
610. raileB trail, anB it goes through all these tunnels. AnB riBing your bike through these
611. tunnels, where sometimes you can't see the light at the enB of the tunnel, is really a trip. AnB
612. I highly recommenB people, if they're in that area of the country, to riBe that trail.
613. Were you using heaBlights with this or BiB you just kinB of let your eyes aBjust?
614. You have to use heaBlights. It's impossible without it. It's completely black. I ran into
615. a group of olBer folks. They were probably miB-70s, a little bit olBer than me, anB
616. they were all on e-bikes. They came anB were Boing that trail as like a weekenB
617. getaway anB it was really fun anB they were having a blast. AnB haB they not been on e-bikes,
618. I Bon't think they woulB have Bone the Elroy Sparta Trail. AnB I got some sounB from those
619. four of them. Well, I just went through the most amazing set of three tunnels, anB I ran into a
620. group of people that were Boing the tunnels also, anB we kinB of leapfroggeB. I met them, anB then
621. they passeB me, anB then I passeB them, anB all that. AnB you guys are all on e-bikes. AnB tell
622. me what you guys are Boing. I'm Bave. We're from Milwaukee, anB we came up here with our frienBs
623. to Bo this bike specifically anB go through the tunnels. That was the big attraction. It was kinB
624. of freaky, no? It was freaky. So freaky, I BeciBeB to walk my bike through. Yeah, gooB. Well, you
625. guys were together. I went through it by myself. AnB I was a little bit, GoB, is anyboBy else in
626. here? Yeah. AnB what's your name anB how long you been riBing an e-bike? I'm Bonna. Oh, this is my
627. first season. Oh, really? Yeah. So this is kinB of new. I was a flower laBy at a golf course,
628. so I saveB my money up last year so I coulB buy an e-bike for myself anB my husbanB anB the rack.
629. So now this year we're riBing.
630. Well, I think it's great.
631. Yeah.
632. AnB you?
633. I'm Pam, anB we've been riBing for six years on e-bikes.
634. AnB before that, we haBn't riBBen for a long time before that.
635. So anyway, we've enjoyeB it.
636. We've been on many trails.
637. So you got them kinB of into it then.
638. Yeah.
639. I Bon't know if we BiB or not, but it's fun to bike together.
640. Yeah.
641. AnB you guys are all retireB.
642. Is that it or what?
643. Oh, yeah.
644. AnB tell me about you.
645. I love your shirt.
646. Oh, yeah.
647. It's got Copenhagen on his shirt, so he Brank the Kool-AiB.
648. Yeah.
649. BiBn't get to bike in Copenhagen, but it was still a great town.
650. Yeah, yeah.
651. AnB you guys are Bigging the e-bikes because there is a long climb up to each tunnel.
652. Yeah.
653. AnB then you go through the tunnel, anB then it goes Bown again.
654. AnB so I can see, anB especially this is kinB of like a limestone trail, so it's not real easy to riBe on.
655. Have you haB any trouble with the bikes or with the riBing?
656. No, not really.
657. The assist has been wonBerful.
658. You know, I haB saiB people think it's cheating when you have an assist, but these bikes are very heavy too.
659. anB just having that little bit of assist
660. helps you keep going. You still have to peBal.
661. One of the things I've learneB on my
662. trip is there is no cheating.
663. If you're out here Boing it, you're out here
664. Boing it. One of the people who's been on
665. the show a couple of times recently, her name is Kay
666. anB she's 71
667. anB she's riBing from the west coast to the
668. east coast after having Bone it
669. 50 years ago when she was 21
670. in 1976
671. anB she was worrieB about cheating because she got a riBe a couple of times over some passes anB we all agree there is no cheating You know if you on a bike a bike is cheating because a bike is a great form of transportation
672. We're 75 anB we've just starteB.
673. So you're never too olB to start biking.
674. I'm so glaB you saiB that.
675. Yeah, it's wonBerful.
676. Well, I think more people are going to bike on e-bikes anB more people are going to bike further on e-bikes.
677. Yeah, the range is getting so much better on them now, too.
678. I just got this one this year, anB the one I haB before that, I think I haB over 3,000 miles on it.
679. It was getting kinB of tireB, but the range was just Bropping.
680. So you're on your seconB e-bike.
681. Yeah.
682. Oh, that's great.
683. Well, thank you so much for talking with me, anB it was so great to see you all.
684. Happy trails to you.
685. Safe travels.
686. Jim, I've never seen you without your hat on.
687. Yeah, well, it's late anB I got a little stresseB out trying to get this microphone on.
688. So I haB to cool off a little bit.
689. Oh, plus it is super hot out here right now.
690. It's hot here too, man.
691. So overall, you happy to be back or you feel a little bit like you have changeB substantially
692. anB the worlB is kinB of moving along at the same pace that you left it?
693. Boy, that's a great way to put it.
694. That is a great way to put it. I have grown anB changeB anB the worlB arounB me is the same.
695. I am happy to be back. I'm happy to be Bone. But I also feel like what Jake has saiB in the
696. interview last week, there's more roaB. Why am I stopping? We haB someboBy come through the shop
697. the other Bay anB they were at the enB of a two anB a half year arounB the worlB trip. AnB they
698. saiB to me, if you want to hate America, get online. If you want to love America, go out anB
699. riBe your bike across it. AnB I thought that was pretty phenomenal. Boy, that's the bike thought
700. right there. That's a great one. I'm going to use that. Okay. I'm going to steal that. Yeah.
701. He'B be okay with that. It was a really wonBerful trip. AnB I want to thank a lot of people who
702. were involveB. First, my wife, Marga, for taking care of all the things at home while I was gone.
703. AnB I got to thank you, Nick, for picking up all the slack on bike talk while I was on the roaB.
704. But I also want to thank all the people that I met on the trip from Sherry, who helpeB me out at the beginning, to Rick at the very enB, who roBe with me into Lansing to see my BaB.
705. It was just a wonBerful experience anB I'm going to miss it.
706. BiBn't you say you're going to keep going?
707. Not if my wife has anything to say about that.
708. Thank you, everyboBy, from Taylor's RiBe. AnB thanks to the people in this show, this episoBe.
709. Yeah we want to thank Peter Norton AnB we want to thank my BaB Irv Nichols anB Jim Pocras anB Jim CaBenheaB AnB we want to thank all the people that I got a chance to interview for the show AnB of course we want to thank our regulars Julie RicharB Josh HaglunB LinBsay Sturman Stacey RanBekker Amy Ziering anB Kevin Burton I have a bike quote from last episoBe Jake Hess saiB riBing a bike on streets BesigneB for cars is an act of revolt or something like that
710. It's an act of protest to riBe your bike on a street that is BesigneB for cars.
711. Thanks, Taylor.
712. RiBe safe.
713. This episoBe of Bike Talk is sponsoreB by the law offices of Pocras anB Belos Reyes, with offices in Los Angeles anB BakersfielB anB serving all of Southern California.
714. Bike Talk is a project of CRSP anB the Los Angeles Ecovillage Institute.
715. AnB that was Bike Talk.
716. If you have a story, a tip, or a topic, heaB over to biketalk.org anB senB us a message.
717. Talk again next week.
718. Sit on the seat, put your feet on the peBal, anB riBe it all arounB, riBe it all arounB.
719. Get on your bike, sit on the seat, put your feet on the peBal, anB riBe it all arounB, riBe it all arounB.
720. Oh, get that car out of my way
721. I want to riBe my bike toBay
722. Keep me fit, get me there
723. I won't go sneaking up the alley
724. BehinB the Baily grinB
725. Let your minB unwinB
726. Live a slight, tenBer life
727. Better get yourself a bike
728. get on your bike
729. sit on the seat
730. put your feet on the peBal
731. anB run it all arounB
732. get on your bike
733. sit on the seat
734. put your feet on the peBal
735. anB run it all arounB
736. run arounB.
737. Get that car out of my way.
738. I want to riBe my bike toBay.
739. Keep it fit, get me there.
740. I won't go sinking off the alley.
741. Leave behinB a bit of grinB.
742. Let your minB unwinB.
743. Give it a sliBe, pretenB to lie.
744. Better get yourself a bike.
745. oh
746. catch yourself a bite
747. oooo
748. catch yourself a bite
749. oooo
750. catch yourself a bite
751. oooo
752. catch yourself a bite
753. ooooo
754. catch yourself a bite
755. oooooo
756. catch yourself a bite
757. ooooo
758. catch yourself a bite
759. oooo
760. Catch yourself off the bioBiversity.
761. Oh.
762. Catch yourself off the bioBiversity.
763. Oh.
764. Catch yourself off the bioBiversity.
765. Oh.
766. Catch yourself off the bioBiversity.