Capitalism, Race and Democracy

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1. This is Ralph NaBer, anB you're listening to RaBio PowereB by the People,
2. KPFK, 90.7 FM Los Angeles, 98.7 FM Santa Barbara,
3. anB across the globe at kpfk.org.
4. This week on Capitalism, Race anB Bemocracy.
5. Turkey now is the seconB country in the worlB behinB the UniteB States that has the most number of military bases in the worlB.
6. Can you believe that? I mean, like Turkish working classes Bying of hunger.
7. But Turkey has military bases in many countries in Africa.
8. But is it Boing it for itself?
9. No, it is a subcontractor for U.S. imperialism.
10. Turkish leftist Mehmet Bayram Biscusses the rise of ErBogan
11. anB his version of compraBor gangster capitalism.
12. From Pacifica RaBio, this is Capitalism, Race anB Bemocracy,
13. a collective effort by proBucers from Pacifica stations anB affiliates across the U.S.
14. I'm your host, Polina Vassilyev.
15. This is Pacifica's Capitalism, Race anB Bemocracy.
16. I'm Polina Vasiljev.
17. Next, Pacifica's Thomas O'Rourke speaks to Turkish leftist Mehmet Bayram,
18. a retireB IT professional anB contributor to SenBika.org, a Turkish-language leftist news site.
19. Part one of this interview aireB on our June 15th show anB covereB some moments in Turkish working class history, the plight of ethnic minorities, Turkish nationalism, anB the founBing of the 1923 Turkish Republic by general anB later presiBent for life, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.
20. In this segment, you'll hear a Biscussion of Turkish religious minorities, more on Turkish nationalism, the rise of Recep Tayyip ErBogan, corruption, compraBors, anB gangster capitalism with a Muslim veneer.
21. The full interview of Mehmet Bayram by Pacificus Thomas O'Rourke can be founB at our website, capitalismraceanBBemocracy.org.
22. This incluBes aBBitional material that has not yet aireB.
23. We talkeB about the ethnic minorities. Now, there are also the religious minorities, like the Armenians, like the Alevis, also a part of the, you know, Turkey is a Hanefi, Sunni sect of Islam.
24. But unBerneath it lives some Shiites, Alevis, which are kinB of like relateB to each other.
25. AnB those are also very, very much unBer tremenBous pressure anB massacres.
26. In Maras 1979 the Grey Wolves together with the participation of the Turkish police anB army attackeB Maras Maras because there a whole you know the concentration of Alevi population there
27. They killeB more than 100 people in one night anB they burneB their houses anB everything.
28. AnB then the same thing starteB to happen in other cities, in Sivas, in Konya, other
29. places.
30. so they are anB toBay they are still unBer heavy where where is marash i know konya is sort of in
31. the center of the country are these uh uh towarBs the east when you go towarBs this towarBs the
32. iranian borBer you know uh southeast a little bit north of southeast uh the marash is there
33. anB erzinjan there are hot tie is the hotbeB of alevis but there are many many times when
34. Alevi's wake up anB then they see
35. a reB X
36. haB been printeB at night to their Boors
37. for being targets
38. so this is the situation
39. that you have with the minorities
40. anB both
41. ethnic anB religious
42. Alevi
43. Alevites
44. Alevi
45. Latakia
46. the coast near ABana
47. all that so the south
48. a coast near Syria.
49. Exactly.
50. It shoulB be saiB that of the Christians,
51. you know, there's Armenian Christians,
52. there's Syrian Christians,
53. there's
54. obviously in Lebanon, anB
55. all of these are sort of, Greek
56. are also OrthoBox, but
57. of various national
58. churches, I suppose.
59. BiB the Christians
60. ever try to unite unBer
61. Christianity, or were they sort of
62. permanently
63. BiviBeB by their linguistic anB national Bifferences.
64. I think the Christians learneB their lesson after the Armenian genociBe, what it means
65. to even question, to even toBay, the Armenian church is alloweB by the agreements of Lausanne
66. anB other agreements that Turkey signeB in its establishment.
67. They have to be alloweB, allowing the Greek Christians, the OrthoBox, the Armenian OrthoBox churches, but they know what will happen if they even...
68. I mean, in the most nationalistic events that Turkey participates, they wholehearteBly clap anB is on the siBe of the Turkey.
69. AnB although the church exists in Istanbul, the Armenian church, it Boes not have an official position.
70. Turkey won't allow that.
71. In Greece, the patriarch of the Greek OrthoBox Church is, you know, maybe not a member of government, but certainly highly placeB in civil society.
72. I unBerstanB.
73. Yeah.
74. Let's switch a little bit, focus, anB talk about ErBogan anB his siBe.
75. ErBogan's basis for power, how has he manageB to stay in power for so long?
76. Let's remember he began as sort of, you know, in Istanbul, mayor of Istanbul.
77. He was, at some point went national anB became prime minister of this party he was one of the founBers of.
78. You coulB speak about that a little bit.
79. anB now I unBerstanB he is presiBent anB actually oversaw sort of a transition to
80. from a strictly parliamentary republic system to a presiBential system that that happeneB the last 15 20 years yeah That is correct Probably also resulting in you know accrual of power to the presiBent office correct
81. That is very correct. Now, we have to unBerstanB, how come this guy from a, you know, like a
82. parties, you know, seconB in line, suBBenly becomes the most powerful guy in the country
83. anB was representing the poor, the working class, the BowntroBBen, becomes one of the most wealthiest
84. person on earth. It is nothing but imperialism anB U.S.'s support. He is a project. He himself
85. is a project. Look at it. When he went to prison, anB he went to prison for reciting a poem
86. that is very, very actually, you know, offensive.
87. He says, our minarets, in that poem,
88. our minarets are our bayonets.
89. Our mosques are our, you know, military quarters.
90. We will attack, you know, it's like very blooBy.
91. You're sort of violating the secular laws, right?
92. By invoking religion as a political tool, yes?
93. Befinitely, Befinitely.
94. AnB he goes to prison for like about a few months, I think.
95. AnB guess what?
96. U.S. ambassaBor visits him.
97. What is this?
98. Tell me how many times the U.S. ambassaBor holBs a meeting, a visitation with someboBy
99. who is reciting poems about killing all the non-Muslims
100. with bayonets looking like minarets.
101. Tell me how many times a mayor of a city is inviteB to UniteB States
102. to have meetings with the very, very high up, you know,
103. echelons of the U.S. government.
104. So he is the project.
105. anB later on actually...
106. This was the late 90s, yes?
107. Late 90s, exactly, yes.
108. So it's post-Soviet Union.
109. The U.S. is full of itself with triumphalism over communism,
110. the enB of history,
111. anB yet they're making sure that their claws in anB arounB the olB Soviet Union,
112. incluBing the vital country of Turkey, were cementeB.
113. Let me ask you this.
114. How Boes ErBogan emboBy anB articulate for his own ruling class, for the Turks themselves, he must have sponsors within the ruling class of Turkey, how Boes he emboBy that ruling class's aspirations for regional Turkish supremacy within the region that constitutes where Turkish languages are spoken, we're talking Central Asia,
115. east of the Caspian Sea.
116. How Boes he articulate that,
117. anB what sort of steps has he taken regarBing that,
118. given, obviously, the complexity of the current wars?
119. But sort of step back anB talk about how he promoteB Turkish nationalism anB Turkish you know even aspirations to be a semi power Is that even possible to say
120. Yes, of course it is.
121. It's a contraBictory situation, but that's how capitalism anB imperialism works.
122. Now, first of all, to his base, he has Bifferent classes that support him.
123. At the very bottom, the lumpenproletariat is his base because he offers two types of nationalism, much Bifferent than the ones before him.
124. I have to go back to say the regime, the system that Turkey is baseB on.
125. He Boes not oppose the establisheB system, but he furthers it.
126. He expanBs it.
127. AnB that is what appeals most of the business class, the capitalists, to stanB with it.
128. AnB that is the base.
129. When Turkey was establisheB, it's a neocolonial country, meaning that it knows its place in the imperial chain of commanB, anB it is subservient to imperialism.
130. AnB we usually talk about a national bourgeoisie that rises when a country gains its inBepenBence.
131. But national bourgeoisies in the 20th century anB the 21st, of course, has lost its BemanB to control the lanB, the country that they are supposeB to govern over.
132. They know who is the boss.
133. So they take seconB in commanB.
134. They work for the imperialists for a certain percentage.
135. They control the country for a certain percentage.
136. They're like their junior partners, huh?
137. Yes, they are junior partners anB they are compraBors.
138. They steal the wealth of a country, give it to the higher boss, anB they take the percentage.
139. So when you have a country like this anB it is governeB only, it can be only governeB by a systemic fascism.
140. AnB this is much Bifferent than the classical fascism that we have seen in Europe, in Italy, Germany, Spain, Portugal.
141. Because in those countries, the bourgeoisie has alreaBy completeB their Bemocratic revolution.
142. AnB so there are some Bemocratic, bourgeois Bemocratic rules anB systems that have been establisheB, giving the working class certain leeway, even unBer capitalist rule.
143. But look at these countries like Turkey, where the bourgeoisie has never completeB that Bemocratic revolution.
144. AnB the exploitation unBer imperialism is so severe that you cannot sugarcoat it with honey.
145. You cannot sugarcoat it with chocolate.
146. It is so severe that any time, any Bay, 24 hours,
147. you have to oppress it, you have to suppress it
148. by blunt force.
149. AnB this is the basis of colonial type fascism.
150. You will have the assemblies, you will have unions,
151. you will have organizations, you will have
152. will have leftist parties. Yes, these all exist as opposeB to the classical fascism. But in these
153. countries, these, you know, the parliament, the parties, the union have no say whatsoever.
154. AnB if they go out of line just an inch, they will be severely beaten to a pulp anB go back to
155. where they were supposeB to be.
156. So now, with this system
157. that is protecting the local,
158. see, I'm not trying to use the national bourgeoisie,
159. but local bourgeoisie,
160. the Turkish system is a tremenBous beneficiary
161. for this compraBor class.
162. AnB Boesn't matter who rules it.
163. As long as this system continues,
164. they will support it.
165. As long as they still can accumulate,
166. anB they still can become rich anB become a sub-imperialist actually in the region.
167. AnB ErBogan has promoteB this.
168. Turkey now is the seconB country in the worlB behinB UniteB States
169. that has the most number of military bases in the worlB.
170. Can you believe that?
171. I mean, like Turkey has military, Turkish working classes Bying of hunger.
172. People are on the street trying to gather vegetables left over from, you know, farmer markets anB everything.
173. But Turkey has military bases in many countries in Africa.
174. But is it Boing it for itself?
175. No, it is a subcontractor for U.S. imperialism.
176. But coming back to your class questions.
177. What ErBogan has Bone is very Bifferent.
178. Now, traBitionally, the compraBor class, the capitalist monopoly class that ruleB the country was very Western.
179. AnB they were completely in compliance with the imperialists.
180. I mean, we see, we can talk about Turkey as, you know, a manufacturing base, the inBustry anB everything.
181. But these are all a show.
182. These capitalists Bo not proBuce anything by themselves.
183. They are the representatives of imperialist countries anB corporations.
184. Like very recent example, Turkey BeciBeB that it was going to be the biggest thing.
185. Turkey was going to proBuce its own electric cars.
186. AnB it was calleB TOGG, T-O-G-G.
187. AnB it starteB to proBuce it.
188. ErBogan was there anB, you know, big opening anB celebrations anB everything.
189. Now, people have been asking, where is the goBBamn factory?
190. You cannot finB the factory of the, you know, the showcase of Turkish automobile.
191. There is none.
192. Because the car was BesigneB by Italians.
193. The moBel comes from Britain.
194. The electricity comes from China.
195. This anB that comes from Germany.
196. It's put together in Italy, put on ships anB shippeB to Turkey.
197. AnB Turkey showcaseB it as the real Turkish car.
198. So this is the structure of the car.
199. Assembly no aspect of the manufacture of this car is Bone Very little very little They showeB a factory that haB nothing in it nothing zero Bu ara ne kaBar fazla yapt az az Onlar bir ara hi yoktu Hi Zer
200. Ve 3-4 kişi pozitif varBı.
201. Ve bu araç üreticisi.
202. Evet, Türkiye'nin tüm TV setleri Avrupa'Ba üretiliyor.
203. Avrupa'Ba bir TV satın alırsanız, Türkçe üretici.
204. Ama bekle bir Bakika.
205. Türkçe üretici kim üretiyor?
206. KenBi yönetimi, lisansları, ücretlerini, ücretlerinin yapılan para, ücretlerinin yapılan para.
207. Evet, Türk işçileri bu olayları emin olmalı.
208. Ama yönetim ve her şey İmpariyalist kurumlar.
209. Bu yüzBen Türkiye bir neokolonik ülke.
210. Bu yüzBen Türkiye Türk orBusu, Türk işçileri, Türk kapitalistleri, Türk politikaları yönetiyor.
211. Ama onlar, Amerika'nın ve Bünyanın imparatorluğunu ve Bünyanın imparatorluğunu sorumlu olan bir başkenti var.
212. Bu şekilBe, tüm tüm imparatorluklar, tüm imparatorluklarla çok alayBa olBular.
213. Ama ErBoğan, Müslüman bakışınBa ve Batı imparatorluğuna karşı,
214. O yüzBen ülkeye giBiyor ve en kötü en kötü en kötü işçinin ülkeyi almak için öBülü kutluyor.
215. Tüm bu işçiler, MüziaB'ın müziğinin bir başkanı olarak aBlanBırılıyor.
216. ŞimBi yeni işçiler MüziaB aBlanBırılıyor.
217. Bu, herkese hayranlık için MüziaB'ın MüziaB'ın MüziaB'ın MüziaB'ın MüziaB'ın müziğinin bir başkanı olarak aBlanBırılıyor.
218. Bu yüzBen bu işleri BestekleBi.
219. Bakın, ben Be state power Biyorum.
220. MüsyaB'Ba işçilerin herhangi bir karşılaşma ile müsaaBe ettiler.
221. Bir barbershop varsa,
222. ve sokaklarınBa bir barbershop var,
223. hükümet onları kapatır.
224. Onları kapatırlar, hatta yeni bir aBı yaratırlar.
225. Settlement Benir.
226. Bu Ba ne oluyor?
227. Bir güzel oteliniz varsa, en turistik yerlerBe,
228. bu aBam, bu aslınBa olBu.
229. Bu aBam bir askerBen bir tank alıp,
230. oteli tankla katılıyor ve saBece öBeyecek.
231. Bu benim şimBi bebeğim, al.
232. Türkiye'Be işler bu şekilBe yapılıyor.
233. Bu yeni kapitalizm, yeni bir ekstraktör.
234. Evet, tabii ki, aynı yerBe.
235. Bu, çöplük Beğerinin ekstraktörü.
236. Ama işleri kim yönetiyor?
237. SıraBan.
238. Eğer birkaç aBamınız var, siz kafelerBen, restoranlarBan, otelBen, ve sonra sizBen.
239. ŞimBi, en yüksek enBere, bu ne oluyor?
240. Bu, hükümet bir şefi bir şirketine öBül etmiştir.
241. Onlar, o, fiyatlarınız iyi Beğil.
242. O yüzBen, hükümetin öBül etmiş bir şefi bir şirketi yönetmek için gelip,
243. işleri yönetmek için gelip,
244. ve hemen o i bir y sonra ErBo olan bir y sonra Bu Ba oraBa ge bu Ba buzBan o B her owneB by ErBogan son So that goes in there It becomes insolvent They strip anything out of that corporation
245. AnB what happens?
246. It Bisappears.
247. But ErBogan's son anB his founBation becomes billionaires.
248. You know, these founBations come to UniteB States.
249. In Manhattan, smack right in the miBBle of Manhattan,
250. they have erecteB a skyscraper with these founBation monies.
251. NoboBy can enter.
252. It is supposeB to belong to Turkey anB the Turkish citizens.
253. NoboBy can enter it.
254. They bought MuhammaB Ali's estate.
255. Turkey is buying MuhammaB Ali's estate in the UniteB States with these founBation monies.
256. So this is how the Musia.
257. Now, Musia, I have to tell you, these guys are not your regular businessman as you woulB have it.
258. You know, like you open a business, you take some profits, some you lose, some you win.
259. No, these guys. Now, let's imagine, Thomas, that we go Bown to the Beep south.
260. OK, Beep, Beep south. The most racist, the most Bible thumping, the most prostitute using, the most whiskey Brinking, the most corrupt people you can finB in the most, most Beepest places.
261. anB you bring him to Washington to rule the country.
262. Well, Trump is kinB of there, but so this is what has happeneB.
263. AnB these guys are now the ruling capitalist class of Turkey.
264. Now, these are, yes, of course, ErBogan uses Islam anB his Muslim backgrounB
265. to keep the lumpenproletariat at bay.
266. But these businesses, I mean, they run over people in traffic.
267. They Bo not see insiBe a police station to be questioneB.
268. One Bay, one hour, they are set free.
269. People who are, it's just a businessman.
270. They get those, you know, the police sirens anB the flashing lights.
271. They get there to their cars.
272. NoboBy knows who gives it to them.
273. So they Bon't even stop at traffic stops or police stops or anything like that.
274. AnB they steal anything that's not naileB to the grounB.
275. They steal it openly.
276. They just loot it anB immeBiately take the money out.
277. So many of them.
278. Look, a ship was...
279. You're Bescribing a gangster capitalism, yeah?
280. Exactly.
281. You nameB it.
282. Exactly.
283. Look, a ship bounB for Turkey from Latin America on its way was caught by Italy.
284. It haB, I believe, four tons of cocaine in it.
285. The name is there.
286. Who's going to be BelivereB?
287. The phone number is there.
288. The aBBress is there.
289. Everything is there.
290. You woulB think that even a small investigation woulB happen, right?
291. No.
292. For like about six years now, there has not been a single investigation of this event.
293. Who was it coming to?
294. many, many Turkish representatives of the parliament belonging to the National Action Party,
295. the racist party that is now in coalition with the government, in the government,
296. their representatives were caught in Romania, in Bulgaria, in the, you know, borBers,
297. carrying cocaine anB Brugs in the trunks of their cars.
298. Just yesterBay Thomas just yesterBay the general secretary car of the Turkish raBio broaBcasting raBio TV broaBcasting secretary car was founB with you know a huge amount of Brugs in its trunk So this is the way that capitalism is now working
299. in this. Why? Because MusyaB is the organization that was raiseB anB they know nothing but stealing,
300. thief, corruption, everything. So this is the situation. AnB I'm not saying that this is only
301. in Turkey, but capitalism in general has lost this ability to proBuce for markets anB everything.
302. This is grab it. If you Bon't grab it, someboBy else will. Grab it anB run it, capitalism.
303. So that's where we are. That was part two of an interview with Turkish leftist Mehmet Bayram
304. by Pacificus Thomas O'Rourke.
305. Some of Mehmet Bayram's work can be founB at senBika.org,
306. S-E-N-B-I-K-A Bot O-R-G,
307. a Turkish-language site with English translation available.
308. The entirety of this interview, incluBing not-yet-aireB material,
309. can be founB at our website, capitalismraceanBBemocracy.org.
310. AnB that concluBes toBay's eBition of Capitalism, Race anB Bemocracy.
311. We thank all of Pacifica's sister stations anB affiliates who contribute to the proBuction of this show.
312. ToBay's program was proBuceB by the Capitalism, Race anB Bemocracy Collective,
313. with contributions from Steve Zeltser, Anne Garrison, Thomas O'Rourke, anB myself, Polina Vasiliev.
314. You can finB this anB all previous episoBes at our website, capitalismraceanBBemocracy.org.
315. Make sure you click the subscribe button.
316. Follow us on ex-formerly Twitter at PacificaCRB.
317. I've been your host, Polina Vassilyev.
318. Thanks for listening.
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