Cut to the Chase - Friday, June 19, 2026

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1. Hey, my name is Ron Regé. I'm an actor from such shows as Matlock, Stranger Things, Power Rangers, and maybe a few more.
2. You are listening to KPFK 90.7 FM Los Angeles.
3. Welcome again to another episode of Cut to the Chase.
4. Cut to the Chase, because that's what we're going to do today.
5. We're going to Cut to the Chase.
6. We've got, I believe, a very interesting show today.
7. we're going to hear an interview
8. the interview is with Dr. Francis
9. Cress Welsing and Dr. Alvin
10. Fassand. This is an old interview
11. it was done back in what we call back in the day
12. it's an interview by
13. Tony Brown on the Tony Brown's
14. Journal. This was
15. one of the few black talk shows on TV
16. it was pioneering
17. it was the only black show that
18. dealt with topics that no one else
19. would or could touch. Tony Brown's
20. Journal. Francis
21. Chris Welsing and Dr. Alvin Fassad.
22. The topic that they're talking about is black men, white women.
23. The first part of this program will be part of that interview.
24. Now, the second half will be joined by Makunga Akinyele, a therapist and author, to help
25. break down what we are about to hear.
26. And at that time, we'll open up the phones for your comments and questions, because this
27. is going to be controversial to some of you, to others you will understand.
28. Now, the efforts to keep America white has taken many forms, you know.
29. White nationalism or so-called white supremacy or just plain racism
30. preceded this nation's 1776 celebration that they're about to have of so-called independence.
31. And methods and strategies have changed, but the goal has been the same,
32. to keep white men in power for their own financial and personal gains by dominating and exploiting others.
33. So even though the methods to maintain power and control have varied, the purpose has always been the same, dominance.
34. Now, today, by the way, is Juneteenth. Happy Juneteenth. But I am sort of conflicted with that.
35. And Juneteenth is a celebration because some of the enslaved people in Texas did not know that the Civil War had been won and they were free.
36. Two weeks ago, we had a guest on talking about the Civil War was never ended.
37. It just changed forms.
38. You can go back in the archives and listen to that.
39. So, you know, what is real freedom?
40. So it's like when you have a basketball game.
41. That was one battle.
42. There's seven games in the NBA playoff, but if you win one game, you haven't won the battle.
43. It's still going on.
44. Aluta continue.
45. Aluta continue, as they say in South Africa.
46. If you look at my T-shirt, we're on video right now.
47. You can go to the KPFK website.
48. And this is a T-shirt of, if you can hit that.
49. This is a T-shirt.
50. Oh, there we go.
51. Back in the day, 1980.
52. Victory is certain.
53. Aluta continue.
54. Now, after that, some of these African nations got this so-called freedom.
55. But are they really free?
56. Are they really free Because they don have control of their way of life They don have control of their culture They don have control of economics their existence
57. So that's how I view Juneteenth.
58. It's a loop to continue.
59. The struggle continues.
60. Now, I mentioned there's different forms of how we are controlled,
61. psychological warfare, or just outright killing somebody.
62. as you recall last week
63. we had O'Malley Shetely on the program
64. he started
65. he has a program
66. the Hulu movement and the
67. black socialist
68. but of course that word
69. socialist is a threat to the United States
70. because that means they don't have control
71. they don't control you
72. but anyway this interview we're about to hear
73. is
74. well just listen to it
75. but first I want to throw a question out to you
76. Herschel Walker, Clarence Thomas, Tim Scott, Kamala Harris, Justice Katonji Brown Jackson, Candace Owens.
77. What do they all have in common?
78. And well, then I want to speak about the interview.
79. We'll open up the phones and we'll have our other guests so we can go ahead and play the clip.
80. This is an interview, I said, with Francis Chris Wilson and Tony Brown by Tony Brown.
81. enjoy
82. again with you
83. sister Welsing
84. why do you believe basically
85. black men are becoming
86. so significantly attracted to
87. white women or
88. is it vice versa? I'd like to turn it around
89. I think
90. first of all that
91. white women are
92. seeking black men first
93. black men are some are
94. attracted to white women
95. And I don't think that we can understand this phenomena unless we understand really what is the larger dynamic that is occurring, not only in this society, but in the world at large.
96. And the way that I look at that phenomena is that, number one, we are living within the context of a system of white supremacy, which is my definition of racism.
97. Racism is a worldwide system of white supremacy, domination, and control.
98. and all of the behavior that we see all over the world,
99. whether it's the behavior of the black woman, the white woman, the black man, or the white man,
100. is occurring within the dynamics of this system.
101. And we can understand what is happening as far as the white woman-black man relationship
102. and why that is on the increase, I think, if we understand the need for the system to remain intact.
103. But Frances, you don't think that the black man has a special attraction toward the white woman?
104. Oh, yes, he does. Yes, he does.
105. Why is that?
106. Well, he has been programmed historically to feel that, first of all, this is the woman who is the woman in the world.
107. And this is a thing that has been denied him, you know, in terms of, let's say, male-female relations or sexual partners.
108. The black man, at least in this area of the world, has been told historically,
109. You cannot look at, you cannot touch this woman.
110. And so at that level of social dynamic programming, yes, the black man has always felt,
111. well, this is the one thing that I have been denied in this society.
112. And so many black men, I think, for, you know, at one level,
113. they are moving towards white women as white women move.
114. White women are the major aggressors in this situation.
115. But the black man is playing his role because he says well this is a thing that I been denied This is the thing that is going to be the great equalizer I think so that the need has sort of been exaggerated because if we look at those statistics you just mentioned
116. actually in the past decade, even with the increase, there's only about 43,000 black men, white women marriages.
117. That's a very, very tiny percentage.
118. That means about 2% of black men are married to white women.
119. Now, if we had accepted the propaganda, that is, the white propaganda, that all black men
120. desire a white woman and they want to marry your daughter, you would expect the incidence
121. of the marriages to really be increasing at a much greater rate.
122. Yeah, I was going to ask, does it mean that the fact that if we accept the fact that black
123. men do feel that white women are preferable to black women, are we saying that their behavior
124. in the context of standard behavior is normal or abnormal?
125. Well, I don't like to use those terms.
126. I would prefer to understand the phenomenon.
127. For example, if we start labeling behavior, like, for example,
128. homosexuals don't like to be called pathological, for one thing.
129. And I think that it is more useful if we say, well, let us try to understand the phenomenon of homosexuality
130. as opposed to saying, well, now that's sick.
131. and then people get turned off and they don't spend time trying to understand the dynamic.
132. In the same way, I don't want to look at the phenomena of, you know, cross-color sexual mating or marriage or whatever.
133. In terms of pathology, I would rather say, well, let's try to understand what actually is going on.
134. But you call the white woman the aggressor.
135. I say that she is aggressive because we live in the context of a white supremacy society in which white people are the dominant group.
136. They are the people who control the power.
137. We are the oppressed people.
138. We are the people who are victims of that system.
139. Just like, I mean, in terms of history was just a short two months ago in terms of the whole historical span
140. that black men were being lynched for looking at a picture of a white woman.
141. Do you see?
142. And now we are told, well, now everything has opened up.
143. Well, I want to understand, well, why is it that everything has opened up?
144. I think everything has opened up since black men started talking about black power.
145. You see, when black men start talking about black power, then that says, well, all right,
146. maybe there will be a challenge to the system of white supremacy domination, not only in
147. this area of the world, but all over the world.
148. So the white supremacy system says, all right, well, now what do we do to get these people
149. back in control?
150. And what do we do to get them back in check?
151. That is a black man.
152. Well, we'll lay our ace trump card on them, which is a white woman.
153. In other words, I think...
154. You see, which brings the black man then back within the context that the white supremacy
155. system is going to work for you. See, we've denied you this, now you have it. But on close
156. examination, in spite of all of the black-white marriages, the black-white sex that has occurred
157. throughout history, in the last 500 years there has been no serious tampering with the
158. maintenance of white supremacy, certainly not through the bedroom activity. Do you see
159. what I'm saying? But in other words, it throws people off balance. In other words...
160. The white woman is still, I think, in a position of psychological dominance.
161. Right.
162. And so far she is.
163. That's a form of white supremacy, and that the black men are frequently responding to her dominant position,
164. the fact that she is considered a superior status object in society.
165. But getting back to this point about...
166. Let me ask a question before you move to that.
167. Then if we accept that, are we saying that the black men who marry white women are asking for dominance from a female?
168. No the black men who are married by white women But the trend you continually No I think that they are looking for status The black men are looking for status The black men are looking for status whether they are aware of it or not In other words as long as you have white supremacy domination any place in the world
169. whether it's Brazil, whether it's Hawaii, whether it's Japan, any place, you name it,
170. that as long as the people of color are the people who are oppressed,
171. then when a marriage occurs, in other words, the dominator says,
172. I will pick you amongst the victims who I dominate to marry you.
173. Then the victim says, oh, goody, this means I'm in.
174. Well, that's true, but I can ask this question.
175. Okay.
176. It seems the way you are framing your analysis that the almost total blame,
177. if we can use that word, for interracial marriages is because of, one,
178. white society, this or this white supremacy.
179. Seeking to maintain itself.
180. And, two, white women being the aggressors.
181. You seem to be saying, and I'm asking a question, that black men are just blameless and they're sort of like the victims of something that they have no control over or that they have no need to be married to a white woman for some perhaps pathological basis.
182. No, let's say, for example, if you set up the conditions for the development of a sadomasochistic relationship,
183. then the masochist as well as the sadist is a part of that relationship,
184. and they are playing roles that they have been conditioned to play.
185. In other words, a person who is a masochist seeks out the sadist because then they could play their sort of dual game.
186. Mutual reciprocity.
187. Their mutual reciprocity together.
188. Now, within the dynamic of the system of white supremacy, you have, for example,
189. many of the white women who are with black and other non-white men are actually, I believe, having a dialogue with white men.
190. How does that work?
191. See, the dialogue goes like this, according to my analysis.
192. First of all, the white women, we have the women's liberation movement, which is a dynamic of white females.
193. They are asking for liberation out from under the white male.
194. Now, within the dynamic of the white supremacy culture, you also have penis envy.
195. In other words, the white men have been perceived as being dominant over the woman.
196. And so the woman says, well, I wish I had a penis.
197. Okay, so what does she do?
198. She says, well, I'll go out and get one that's supposed to be more powerful than yours, but I'm going to control it.
199. Because we are white and we control all of the non-white.
200. So she goes out and she selects, and all this is unconscious, you know, activity, if you will.
201. She goes out and selects a non-white male, be he black or any other non-white.
202. then she is walking down the street or they can go to the, you know,
203. Justice of the Peace or the priest or be married.
204. And any time a white man sees that, she is communicating to him,
205. see, I've got one because I am in control of this.
206. I don't think we can, you know, generalize to that extent.
207. I think that that's a theory.
208. But it's getting back to the question when we present arguments that way
209. is whether the relationship between black men and white women are pathological.
210. Now, Frances said she doesn't like to think of it in that framework,
211. but the fact is that a lot of psychiatrists have presented or said
212. that interracial relationships and marriage stem from a type of negative psychological position
213. or some type of pathology because of the racism in society.
214. They'll say that the racism distorts people's minds
215. so that frequently you'll get, say, a white woman attracted to a black man for the wrong reasons or for racist reasons.
216. She may see him as inferior, that might turn on, or she might see him as a black stud, that may turn on.
217. All of these are racist perspectives.
218. Or the black man can get attracted to the white woman because she's supposed to be superior, and he wants to be part of that whiteness.
219. words she sort of anointing him or helping him to feel a sense of self-worth by his involvement
220. with her. Well I wouldn't argue with any of that. But at the same time I think that we
221. can't say that this happens with everyone and even if it does happen that this is pathological.
222. Well let's look at it this way. Let's say for example white men and white women have
223. many difficulties in terms of marriage. Alright? I mean there's a lot of alienation that is
224. going on just within the white group itself, within the total context of the white supremacy
225. system. Black men and black women have serious problems in terms of the marital relationship.
226. Now, either we say that all of these people are sick because of, you know, various problems,
227. or we can say, well, now let us look at the total behavioral phenomena that is occurring within a
228. social system. Let's not bother to label it, but let's begin to understand what is happening.
229. Do you see what I'm saying? Because there are many, many problems. I wouldn't want to say that every, I don't think it's useful. At one level, we can say, all right, these are pathological relationships, the problems that black men and black women have. Or we can say that the problems that white men and white women have are pathological. But I don't think that.
230. society see because once you say pathological which means sick which means sick then people
231. who can be helped by understanding the dynamic they're turned off because they don't want to
232. be labeled as sick but they may want to understand the phenomena for purposes of analysis let us
233. assume like let's say everybody who comes to a psychiatrist doesn't want to be labeled as sick
234. they say i have a problem i don't understand how i am relating to this other individual
235. and the product that we have that i don't want let me and help me understand it so i can straighten
236. it out and this is this is where I'm coming from I don't you know I don't
237. want to create a big thing at the same time though I think we can recognize
238. certain things that I don't know if we want to call them sick but that are
239. distorted for instance I've seen black men married to white women and
240. essentially they hate other black people that they have sort of joined the
241. oppressor and are actively anti-black and they also an expression of self-hatred
242. that's right it's an expression of self-hate for them to marry a white
243. On the other hand, I see some black men who are married to white women who remain militantly
244. black or stay involved with the black community.
245. Well, couldn't that be a defense mechanism?
246. Well, it is, but there's a contradiction still.
247. But being militant, let's just deal with this.
248. Some of our most alleged most revolutionary blacks have white women.
249. Now many blacks suspect, and it's an open secret, that their militance is simply a defense
250. mechanism so that they can deal with their need for a white woman.
251. But look at it this way. Many of those so-called militants who are married to white women, I think it's because of the way that they have defined the problem for themselves.
252. Many black people who a white person will say, well, that person is militant because the person happens to be saying black power.
253. They are not really talking about the overthrow of white supremacy. They're talking about workers of the world unite, maybe.
254. Do you see what I'm saying? But because they are black, they're saying, well, OK, from I'm saying in terms of a humanistic struggle.
255. They're talking right. You see what I'm saying? So they don't, they don't perceive, but they don't perceive a contradiction because the whole struggle of black people until, I would say until recently, has been defined as trying to get in to, we want to become a part of the society as though it is possible for people of color to become a part of the society.
256. Now, some black behavioral scientists are saying, on the basis of having made an analysis that the system is one of white supremacy,
257. in which none of the non people in the entire world who happen to make up nine of the total world population none of the non people can actually integrate into the system of white supremacy because it is just that maintaining white supremacy
258. Okay, so now within that context, then some black people are rethinking the position in terms of now,
259. if I am talking about the overthrow of white supremacy as a system worldwide,
260. then what does it mean for me to not only marry but for me to have sexual relationships with a person who, whether they are willing or not,
261. are participating in the maintenance of white supremacy?
262. And some of us are taking the position that if a white person really says that they like a black person or a non-white person,
263. then they will abstain from sex and they will abstain from marriage because they perceive also their position within the white supremacy context.
264. supremacy context is as long as we have a system of white supremacy then white people when they
265. relate to non-white people are relating at a level of unequals and until it's equalized then
266. something else is happening do you see what i'm saying in other words the non-white person who
267. is in bed with a white person thinking that they are bringing about a humanistic union
268. are really bringing about their further subjugation because they are thinking in the act
269. of sex, that now we are one and now we are equal. And so when you find that those people
270. who are in bed with white people, when they get out, like you said, they are negative
271. and you can make a diagnosis. If you see a black person being very, very negative when
272. they are, you know, with other black people.
273. Are you saying this is in all cases?
274. No, no, no. I don't want to say all.
275. Okay, but you're sort of making a political statement.
276. But you have to agree.
277. I'm saying that the act of sex is a political act.
278. Do you see? Just like every other act.
279. When it's between people of blacks and whites.
280. Every act is a political act because when people relate, they are always relating on the basis of power.
281. Do you see what I'm saying?
282. Whether they are aware of that or not, you can never get away from that.
283. And so even when people of different colors are relating, the question of power is brought into play.
284. For example, the French, in terms of maintaining colonial domination in Africa,
285. they, Arnaud Toynbee has written about this, that they made it a policy,
286. if the black man, you send him to the African who's in the colony,
287. you give him a high school education and send him on to the university in Paris,
288. he comes back and he says, all right, now I'm a Frenchman, and I want to be free.
289. I'm educated. I know as much as a colonizer.
290. I want to be free, that you can cool him out by giving him a white woman.
291. Do you see what I'm saying?
292. And we see certain phenomena going on in the society today
293. where black men who are married to white women are being given positions
294. that black men who are not married to white women are not being given.
295. Why? Because the white system perceives that that is a safe individual.
296. Why? Because it is not only compromised in bed, but he is psychologically compromised.
297. I mean, any time you get in bed with someone, sex is a very profound human act,
298. and it has extreme psychological implications that spread into your, you know,
299. what do you do in the area of economics, what do you do in the area of entertainment.
300. Why do we assume, though, that if a black man goes to bed with a white woman,
301. he has to be assuming that she's superior, or he has to feel that?
302. He doesn't have to. She is superior.
303. Yeah, but suppose in his relationship with her, does he have to feel that he's coming from the inferior position?
304. She is still superior.
305. What about...
306. She can take him any time that she wants.
307. What about just the biology of it?
308. If she gets angry with him...
309. What about the biology of it?
310. That is, that he's involved in a sexual union that doesn't have political dimensions or meaning.
311. It does have political dimensions.
312. Even to him psychologically.
313. Well, that's...
314. Well, maybe, if I'm saying what Dr. Welsing is saying, maybe she's saying that that's
315. not conscious but the dynamic cannot be eliminated on a logical basis I mean on a conscious basis you can say that unconsciously my behavior is not determined by something that I not aware of Right see we not aware of it Like a lot of people say well this is love
316. You're assuming that all black men then got this feeling of inferiority in them.
317. All non-white people feel inferior. See what I'm saying? All non-white people who are within the system and the dynamic and the power of the system of white supremacy
318. until they consciously work and struggle with themselves and even then are going to feel inferior because functionally we are inferior.
319. Let's say you're a professor at Harvard.
320. I'm a professor at Howard.
321. Physician, psychiatrist.
322. I take the position that we are functional inferiors.
323. In spite of that, even compared to the white person who has a grade school degree.
324. Why?
325. Because within the political power system, they have more power to control what happens to their lives
326. and you and I have the control of what happens to ours.
327. What about the fact that a lot of black men say that they are going with white women and so on
328. because they're trying to get back at the system or they're trying to get revenge
329. or this is really a hostile act and it doesn't, in fact, that they see it as a confrontation with the white system
330. and not as something that they're succumbing to as an inferior person,
331. that they're asserting in a sense their manhood or saying they just have as much right to have a choice
332. about the women that they want that white men used to have and still have.
333. The white men can have white women and they can have black women,
334. they can have anybody they want,
335. but black men were confined to black women and they couldn't even have her.
336. See what I'm saying? We can say a lot of things.
337. I can say, for example, I'm a psychiatrist and I'm free.
338. Does that make it a case? No, it doesn't.
339. The proof of what is it that I can do for myself,
340. can I protect my children, can I protect anything that I call mine,
341. the ultimate answer to that is no.
342. so that we can say a lot of things.
343. Black men can think that they're doing a lot of things.
344. It was not black men who said that white women could come now into the black community
345. and start picking up whatever black men they want.
346. The black men didn't have anything to do with that.
347. And if the white supremacy system tomorrow morning wants to turn it around and say
348. all white women come home because it's essential to maintain white supremacy,
349. all white women will go home.
350. But don't you think, for instance, that psychologically,
351. if white women have been forbidden to black men by oppression,
352. if the black man has access to the white woman,
353. that that will make them feel more psychologically free.
354. It will fool them more.
355. Let's say, for example, if you tell me, for instance,
356. He said psychologically free.
357. Well, wait a minute.
358. He didn't say functionally free.
359. No, it's a fantasy, and then it's a psychosis.
360. Do you see that?
361. Right.
362. In other words, if you are operating, just like they tell us in psychiatry,
363. That means a loss of contact with reality.
364. functioning if you are functioning on something that is not reality then you've
365. had it okay now but this is something that the white supremacy system
366. understands you said I'm saying they understand well now we programmed these
367. victims to feel that if they get a white woman they will have they will have it
368. like a black cat told me who was graduating from graduate school at
369. Harvard that marrying a white woman was a part of the Harvard degree in other
370. words I'm really in. Do you see what I'm saying?
371. Part of ascending upward in his mind.
372. Now the system has programmed us to think that. Just like it programs a black woman
373. to say, all right, if you have a white man that really means that you are in. Nonsense.
374. Do you see what I'm saying? Because white supremacy is going on. And white supremacy
375. will go on and victimize your children and your offsprings irrespective of what you were
376. doing in your bedroom activity.
377. And the white supremacy system further would like the non-white and the black man to think
378. that his phallus or his penis if you will is equal to an M16 rifle which is what he maintains power with But Frances do you don think it possible for a white woman and a black man to be involved in a relationship as individuals without all of this stuff
379. No, no more than it is for a black man and a black woman to think that they have got...
380. You're saying all these things are always going on.
381. In other words, when the black man and the black woman decided they are in love, you know, all those feelings that we call love.
382. What we call love is just that historic programming.
383. You know, what parent we were tied to and whatever dynamic was going on.
384. And then we go and pick somebody who turns on those same feelings.
385. And we call those feelings love.
386. But that doesn't just because we call it love and then glorify doesn't mean that we cannot understand how those feelings got programmed in that way.
387. And so black man and a black woman, particular people who've had particular experiences, meet on a sunny day and they say, we are in love and we want to go off and get married.
388. As though white supremacy as a major dynamic in the world has disappeared.
389. Oh, no.
390. But we don't have proof that most black men are programmed that way.
391. Do we have nine tenths of the people in the world controlled by white supremacy?
392. But we don't have proof that the black man is programmed.
393. What does that mean?
394. That is, we don't have the statistics to validate black men all wanting to rush after white women.
395. Wait a minute.
396. Let's be honest.
397. If we look at what is the dynamic that goes on in the so-called black community or amongst black people,
398. what is still, you know, in the quiet recesses of our thinking, what is considered as beautiful?
399. Still light skin and still straight hair.
400. What does that mean?
401. See, that just means that the black mother who trained her son, you know, just I have a friend who says that his mother programmed him down in Oklahoma, you know, just looking out the front porch to the girl, black girl who was light skin, straight hair.
402. There's a beautiful girl to the black skin girl with the kinky hair.
403. She wouldn't say anything. Do you see what I'm saying? So that that that kind of programming, this is what I'm saying, that all of this goes on.
404. involved in love. All of this goes and is involved in love, who is a suitable choice,
405. what kind of woman does a professional man marry. You see, you can just survey. All we
406. have to do is look at the phenomena of the social laboratory. That's true. And say, well,
407. who are the people, the particular people, who are picked to marry? And we can understand
408. that the dynamic of white supremacy is intact even when a black man and black woman are
409. in bed. I've talked to black men who say when they're in bed with black women, they're thinking
410. about Doris Day.
411. Really?
412. I mean, well.
413. But Dr. Boussaint, you must admit that there are some black men who exclusively don't like
414. any female who is not white.
415. Now, I'm sure that there you would have to have one constant, wouldn't you?
416. Yeah.
417. If a man who is black doesn't even look at a black woman and looks at nothing but white
418. women, then isn't that significant?
419. Wouldn't that be significant enough to be a non-generalization?
420. I think that's significant.
421. But see, I don't know if we can relate at all as clearly to sort of political, you know,
422. the white supremacy.
423. For instance, let me take it down to a personal level.
424. Suppose something is operating like the, say, the black man and his relationship to his
425. black mother or to his black father, where he develops blocks against black women, and
426. and then he generalizes it all to other black women, and then he gets involved with a white woman.
427. Now, that doesn't mean that he's necessarily indulging in any form of white supremacy.
428. necessarily. That is, you can't assume that his rejection of his black mother is because she's
429. black. He may be rejecting her for all sorts of other psychological reasons. Let's go down and
430. look at that. Let us look at the white woman is just happens to be there where he can displace
431. Because this is a very common phenomena amongst our people.
432. Okay.
433. That was an interview with Dr. Francis Chris Welsing.
434. And another brother, let me get my notes.
435. I've been all over the place here, editing as we speak.
436. Are we on Zoom?
437. Do we have a good?
438. Okay, there he is.
439. Yes, yes.
440. So bring him in.
441. We have a guest with us also.
442. Could you run that music for a second?
443. We will not comply.
444. This is by Mau Mau Rising.
445. Mau Mau Rising is the name of a group.
446. Actually, I'm part of that group.
447. If you know the Mau Mau, they were Kenyans who rose up against the British because they were being oppressed.
448. and of course
449. the British
450. they beat the British
451. down
452. so pretty bad
453. so that is
454. Mao Mao rising
455. once we get it
456. let's do this
457. let's go to clip one, how about Malcolm X
458. first clip
459. so I played that because
460. right now we're in a crazy
461. situation but it's not different
462. than what's been going on
463. racism is around the world and is being used to control folks.
464. And what I found out is that the dynamic of integration or mixing the races,
465. like Malcolm said, Malcolm has a little analogy, he says,
466. if you get a cup of coffee, it's black and strong.
467. But once you start putting cream in it, it weakens the coffee.
468. So they mentioned that in their interview about how to, you know, take the radical out of the man.
469. Now, at the beginning of the show, I said, what do Herschel Walker, Clarence Thomas, Tim Scott, Kamala Harris, Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson and Candace Owens?
470. Maybe I'll let one of the callers answer that.
471. So that's another dynamic of this thing.
472. So what I'm just rambling, rambling on.
473. Excuse me. Another dynamic is why, what, well, let me just say this.
474. A great movie, not a movie, it's a short series on Netflix.
475. It's called Colin in Black and White. It's about Colin Kaepernick, the football player.
476. It's an excellent short documentary that he produced.
477. And it shows this story. And this is really, really interesting.
478. So if you have Netflix, I don't subscribe anymore.
479. But be sure to watch Colin in Black and White.
480. And I've also heard black mothers say that some black mothers told me, black daughters, that their mothers told them to marry white because, you know, you need a white man.
481. So that's what they're talking about.
482. This is not just anti this or anti that.
483. It's the dynamics of white so-called supremacy channeling the world to make you think that you are better or inferior to somebody.
484. So that's what we're looking at. This is Maumau Rising in the background. You can bring it down just a little bit.
485. Let bring in Dr Makunga Apinielo He is a Can you go on camera Makunga Yeah there he is What going on brother Hey brother How How you doing Did you hear that first part of the interview I did I did
486. Yeah. So, Makunga, tell them who you are, what you do. You're a therapist, correct?
487. I am. I'm a family therapist. I'm in practice here in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm also
488. a professor in the Department of Africana Studies and the Director of Graduate Studies
489. in Africana Studies at Georgia State University.
490. I'm the author of two books
491. and several journal articles and book chapters.
492. My most recent book is called
493. Testimony Therapy,
494. Decolonizing Mental Health
495. for Black Therapists and Clients.
496. You can get that anywhere you get your favorite books.
497. So it's declining the therapist,
498. not the patient.
499. Is that what you're saying?
500. Right, it's Testimony Therapy,
501. decolonizing mental health for black therapists and clients.
502. In other words,
503. the whiteness out of our mental health treatment.
504. So give me your thoughts quickly on what you just heard,
505. Francis Chris Welsing.
506. Um,
507. it's,
508. it's,
509. I miss those,
510. those kinds of shows like Tony Brown had,
511. first of all,
512. where you had important black intellectuals and activists actually
513. dialogue and cutting up.
514. I think it really,
515. it was important to the critical thinking of our movement and our community. First of all,
516. that's the first thing. Those old Tony Brown conversations are always amazing.
517. And I think that it's a question that we have to always look at. The question of,
518. you know, there's this old saying that the personal is political. A lot of people would
519. say who you happen to sleep with or whatever is irrelevant, but it's, it's political. It's, uh,
520. and I think that's the thing that, uh, Dr. Welsing was, was trying to, uh, promote and say
521. is that it's not just a personal choice. Um, she, you know, she, uh, was a psychiatrist who, um,
522. came out of a psychodynamic and, and, uh, practice. And so I wouldn't agree with everything
523. she says in terms of the idea of the importance of the subconscious and the unconscious as much.
524. But I think a lot of the things she says are things that we still need to consider. The question is,
525. why do people make the choices they make? You know, are they just innocent choices of biology
526. and love or are there cultural and political motivations behind how people even make choices
527. for their partners well let me just say this there's a lot i think that movie that i asked
528. people to check out colin in black and white colin of course is uh the football player who took a knee
529. because he was protesting peacefully police shootings of black people and he he's he's a
530. mixed race but growing up it's so dynamic of how he grew up he grew up with a white family
531. and to watch that just breaks it down see a lot of people don't understand what we went through
532. we being people of melanated hue uh no matter how much melanin you have in you matter of fact
533. what happened like i mentioned in south america on one of these shows on cut to the chase we had
534. a person say oh especially and specifically in south america mary her grandmother said you know
535. you need to marry white, you know, light, don't marry dark.
536. And there's been, in the fairy tale, in the stories,
537. everything says you are not you are lesser So that might go into your subconscious as a therapist do you think that goes into your subconscious you are the beautiful the ugly black duckling turns into what beautiful white swan there the cartoons if you look at
538. the cartoons if you look at Tarzan everything was you know black matter of
539. fact on this program also when we talked about the nation of Islam now they got
540. their name, they say in their paper that the original Asiatic black man.
541. They chose Asiatic because at that time, Africa was bad.
542. Oh, you African.
543. So that whole psychological 250 plus years of brainwashing did that to us.
544. Go ahead.
545. Comment on that.
546. That was 818-985-5735.
547. Hit option one.
548. We have a new phone system.
549. I'd love to hear some from some of you.
550. Yeah.
551. You know, so I think at the top of this conversation, what's important to say, because I think it's a persistent myth that, you know, since most of this was around the question of black men.
552. The vast majority of married black men marry black women.
553. The vast majority of high earning income black men marry black women over 83 percent in both cases.
554. Why do we say that?
555. OK, I like those statistics.
556. But at the same time, when you see high profile people like I said, was it was the Herschel Walker, Clarence Thomas, Tim Scott, Kamala Harris.
557. Once again, they all have white spouses. That was a part of what I said.
558. It's an important thing to talk about. But the vast majority of even high profile, how high earning.
559. And I'll say black men and even fewer black women marry outside of our nation.
560. of our people, right? So it's an important conversation, but it's important also that
561. we don't lift this up to some crises where all Black folks are beginning to do this. It's a
562. particular issue, yes, and we can be curious as to why, right? But let's not act as if this is a
563. thing where it's destroying, for instance, our people as a whole. I think it's important to
564. keep that in mind. Well, that's a good point, but I don't think
565. it's a crisis to us. I think it's a crisis to the
566. white person.
567. Because Francis
568. Crest talks about the color confrontation
569. and what she says is the white person
570. is not multiplying
571. as much. So you have people like Elon Musk
572. saying we need to bring more
573. white people here because we're being outnumbered.
574. So to them, it's a threat.
575. To us, you know, I think
576. if you look historically, I don't have any statistics
577. that we accept
578. interracial marriages more than white folks. They say, oh, hell no.
579. You've been ostracized from your family because they want to keep it pure.
580. The race, Hitler, Hitler, he wanted a pure Aryan race.
581. So if I understood Dr. Kress correctly, Kress Welsing, if I understood her correctly,
582. And I think I agree with her. You know, even white supremacy and white nationalism takes different roles. There's no monolithic approach to it. So you might have people like an Elon Musk or the white purists who want to eliminate black people and blackness.
583. And so they would be opposed to that. But if I understand her correctly,
584. she would argue that there's another approach to white supremacy and white
585. domination,
586. which is seeking to get to gain power over by sexually dominating,
587. uh, in, in, in their discussion, black men. Yes.
588. To make by by by diluting the political direction and commitment of those black people to black people Yes You know and and there you know so if I understand her correctly then there no even absolute path to white supremacy
589. That makes sense what I'm saying. It makes big sense. Malcolm talks about that. Let's play a clip by Malcolm X.
590. We have an audio clip of Malcolm X that we play the first clip. He talks about he has an analogy, like I said, about the coffee.
591. But this one, he talks about integration and separation.
592. Hit it when you can.
593. Malcolm X, the minister of the black Muslim community in New York and national representative of Elijah Muhammad, the spiritual leader of the black Muslim movement.
594. Mr. Malcolm, may I ask you to tell us something about the black Muslim movement in America?
595. Okay, let's go to the next clip.
596. What is it?
597. I thought I edited that one out, but maybe I didn't.
598. Mm-hmm.
599. Many efforts we made to demonstrate toward integration,
600. why we would know the law should be on our side if it's the law of the land.
601. If it is the law of the land, then the demonstrators are within the law,
602. and the discriminators are against the law.
603. But to show you the hypocrisy of the law,
604. when Negroes demonstrate for integration,
605. instead of arresting the discriminators, the law arrests the demonstrators.
606. So this is a foolish move on the part of Negroes.
607. baby, I think one years old, got shot.
608. In Mississippi? Yes.
609. Got shot. And like I said,
610. two weeks ago we had the Civil War is not over,
611. so it's still going on.
612. 818-985-5735.
613. We're talking to
614. Makunga Akinyele.
615. Akinyele, there you go.
616. Hey, hey.
617. I'm the other one.
618. We have a partner whose name is Akinyele.
619. So he always
620. chastises me.
621. I'm not...
622. they've both been on the show,
623. both dynamic brothers.
624. So today,
625. what we see is
626. black faces in high places.
627. You want to talk about that?
628. So I named those people out.
629. What happened was,
630. I think it was the Democrats first.
631. They said, let's get people,
632. push them up there with our agenda.
633. And they lied.
634. Like, for instance,
635. I'm going to say who lied.
636. Of course, they pulled out
637. Herschel Walker of all people
638. to run for a seat in Georgia.
639. Of course, Clarence Thomas, who I think you would call that self-hatred.
640. Tim Scott, all have white spouses.
641. Kamala Harris.
642. And they lie.
643. Kamala Harris said, oh, we're fighting hard to get a ceasefire in Iran.
644. All you got to do is stop the money.
645. So they're lying.
646. Just like Trump is lying right now.
647. They're lying because they want money and power and to keep that white supremacist status in power.
648. Justice Katanji Brown Jackson, I have nothing negative to say about her.
649. she's doing the right thing and candace owens oh my god
650. she said she got into the thing i'd be afraid if i got on a plane as a black pilot because
651. they might not be qualified speak on uh these high celebrity i think but i think
652. i think it would be dangerous though to conflate the problem the issue of those people being having
653. white partners to their politics.
654. I think oftentimes them
655. having white partners is a symptom of their problem, right?
656. You know, Candace Owens is a committed black white supremacist.
657. I like that, committed white supremacist.
658. She's a committed white supremacist.
659. Yes.
660. So, you know, same thing with Herschel Walker.
661. And it plays out in who we see them partnering with.
662. Same with Clarence Thomas.
663. On the other hand, and see, this is a problematic conversation for us.
664. As you said, I don't have anything bad to say about the justice, Katanji.
665. Right?
666. She, every time, in all her political actions, she seems to care about the outcomes of the community.
667. Same thing, even, I would say, generally with Kamala.
668. Also the other justice who's of the vaccine.
669. Now, the difference is. I have a different politic with those people, you know, her philosophy, their philosophies are focused on integration.
670. I believe in black power. You know, I believe that black people should have self-determination and our solutions are not integrating into a decaying democratic capitalist system.
671. All right. And but, you know, but that's different than those committed white supremacists.
672. It gets even more complicated. You know, a lot of my work is grounded in the work of Frantz Fanon, who I think was probably the most revolutionary person of the 20th century. Frantz Fanon was committed to being married to white women, it seems. Right. Which is a mystery.
673. well you know well you know that's it you said france because france in the book uh by walter
674. rodney how you're going to develop uh africa he speaks about how great the french were in making
675. black people frenchmen also to some little mature to say they were the worst of white supremacists
676. yes but i would i think what you said was very important you said black white nationalists i
677. I think there's also black, white imperialist, which I would then put these other people under.
678. They're not necessarily white supremacy. That's like Toussaint.
679. They're committed. A lot of those people that you mentioned from the Democratic Party are politically committed to the politics of the Democratic Party, which is neoliberalism.
680. Right. They are committed to moving forward. You know, the capitalist agenda, the neoliberal agenda, which within it is integration.
681. OK, so that's a big part of it. For me, those questions are much more important than who they choose to sleep with.
682. I think who they choose to sleep with in many ways may be a symptom of their political direction.
683. but that's not the most significant thing because as i said the vast majority of black people even
684. black people with money or or power don't choose to to to have white partners yeah and i you know
685. i see that i think what francis is saying though is that uh everything plays a part uh like you
686. know well you know there used to be the black the brown bag test when you go to a party you put up
687. a brown bag, and if you were darker than that brown bag, you're not allowed in the party.
688. Let's just take a quick caller real quick.
689. Kamal is on line one on our new phone system.
690. First time.
691. Hey Kamal Welcome Question for Brother Makungu Or comment Yes free the land How you doing Brother Free the land
692. Free the land. Free the land.
693. Yes, sir. First, a shout out to the ancestors, as usual. And unfortunately, Francis is among them.
694. And of course, Tony Brown's Black Journal, he's gone too, but that was a fantastic show.
695. My compliments to Youth Life for this school and you're doing here. You need a two-hour show.
696. Now, first back to Makunga, who was a comrade.
697. I first met him, I believe, back at the Center for Black Survival.
698. Oh, you go way back.
699. This is another old person.
700. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
701. And of course, I moved to Atlanta, too, to join the comrades that moved there to work.
702. So, again, I want to give you a shout out there.
703. My question for you is, what's the best path for liberation, for self-determination for black folks?
704. And thanks for that shout out to Fanon. He's the man. He's the man.
705. Free to land. Free to land. Oh, he's asking a personal question.
706. You know, my personal politics. And I know that's that's not why Sylvester invited me on here would be, as I said,
707. I believe that. The primary problem for black people and other oppressed people right now is the remnants of settler colonialism.
708. And until we correct that problem, the fact that our nations were invaded 500 years ago, beginning and colonized by European developing capitalists at that time and supreme capitalists at this time, that until we resolve that contradiction, until we as Africans, whether we are in Africa or here in the West, have self-determination, the ability to determine our own political direction and the right to even discuss that.
709. amongst ourselves without interference, that we won't have any freedom that will always be on
710. someone else's agenda, whether it's neoliberal capitalism and integration, which is the program
711. of the Democratic Party, you know, or genocide and absolute white supremacy, which is the program of
712. the Republican Party. Both of those solutions leave us out and leave our ability to determine
713. our own directions out. So I would argue that the political demand for us at this point is
714. self-determination. And then if I were to take it personally, I would say
715. the dissolution of capitalism and the development of a democratic economy,
716. socialism for our people. But again, that's up to the people to decide. That's not up to me.
717. But since you asked my personal thoughts, I thought I'd put it out there.
718. I like those comments. Thanks. We're going to go. Hold on one.
719. Harold's that hold on one second. Harold from Santa Barbara, because what you said was very important.
720. The control of what you do. And after the Civil War and even today, they make sure all these wars are fought because somebody wants to control their own destiny.
721. Trump had the nerve to say, I think I mentioned it earlier on the program, that they need to behave, they being Iran.
722. Cuba, if you listen to the show earlier today, they talked about Cuba.
723. Why is Cuba, you know, why are you attacking them?
724. Because you can't control them.
725. Once you become independent, you're a threat, which is ridiculous.
726. So you kill babies and you talk about how bad you are.
727. You talk about Cuba without talking about the blockade you had for over 70 years.
728. You talk about how bad Iran is We not talking about how you have sanctions on them killing and how the Mossad went in there among the demonstrators and start shooting at the police
729. You don't talk about that. People on all these programs say, oh, in Ukraine, a white nationalist state, a puppet state of America.
730. that you don't talk about how the United States set them up,
731. set them up to be attacked so then they could justify a war on.
732. I'm sorry, did I get off track?
733. Go ahead.
734. I just wanted to bring these points in.
735. Let's have Harold.
736. Harold from Santa Barbara asked a question to Makunga.
737. Yes, I have two questions.
738. The first question is Dr. Julio Espinoza of UCR made the statement
739. that a white person will never understand racism.
740. And then my next question is,
741. I was also told many times that if you married a white woman,
742. you're bettering the race.
743. Well, I'm Chicano, but I'm a light-complected Chicano.
744. But more importantly, I'm glad you all mentioned about age
745. because I have to join your club, and I do miss that show.
746. Hey, Harold, that's important because the same thing is going on in the Latino community. When I was in Cuba, you know, we had a day in Cuba, we had a whole seminar on racism. But the difference was, they were trying to solve the problem, they understood. And it was more to me like colorism. You know, the lighter you were, the better you were, merry light, because that's how we were brainwashed. But anyway, go ahead and answer his question, Makunga.
747. brother can you ask again if you had a question can you ask again yeah what's it
748. yes uh from uh dr julio espinoza made the statement that uh white people will never understand racism
749. um i can appreciate that i mean how how can when you're outside of a system and when you're
750. benefiting from it how can you ultimately understand the impact that it's having on
751. the people that it's targeted against. At the same time, we know that, I say, you know, we have
752. people in the spirit of John Brown and Marilyn Buck. Yes. Tim Weiss, contemporary. Right. Who
753. are willing to take the leadership of we colonized people and to support our struggle. So that
754. becomes important. You know, and I think, again, I think that that's the distinction,
755. even conversations like this. I think that following the best traditions of our revolutionary
756. peoples from our colonized nations, that we not fall into the trap that our oppressors have created
757. of reducing ourselves to having only a racialized analysis, right? As opposed to a national
758. analysis and that it's not just about somebody's biology, which makes them good or bad.
759. is their social context and their social condition, if that makes sense what I'm saying.
760. It does perfectly, and that's what he was mentioning was in his class of race and racism,
761. he was making it very clear. He said a white person, but that does not determine your outlook
762. or your analysis of a situation. So your examples are perfect for that, and that's what he was
763. trying to explain to us is you have to think what the comment you have to think outside the box this would be back in 69 70 okay And you know I love your question And there are some white people who get it Most don But there are a few When Steve Biko had his revolutionary Steve Biko of course South African who was fighting against apartheid
764. He said white folks could support us, but they can't be in our movement.
765. And there's a lot of white supporters who get it, but most don't because they want that white privilege.
766. And also that goes with black people.
767. They don't want anything to change because they're comfortable.
768. I always say that on this program.
769. Well, you know, I'm comfortable.
770. What y'all doing?
771. You know, I got my two-car garage, 3.2 kids, job with benefits.
772. I'm good. Elaine in Los Angeles. Hello. How are you?
773. Hello. Hi, you're on the air. Cut to the chase. Oh, great. This is Elaine.
774. I just wanted to comment that I think the biggest problem we have is that we don't know who we are.
775. Yes. No. Yes. Yes. We come from a people that had sunshine, rain, vegetation and more life.
776. And so they didn't need a whole lot and continued to develop on a spiritual level.
777. Whereas people from the ice, the cold, and very few things to consume, you know, they became a warring people.
778. And they understand when children are born, those children who are of African descent are stronger.
779. Okay, unfortunately, we're running out of time.
780. I'm just wrapping up so he can comment and I'll make my last comments.
781. Go ahead.
782. Y'all have to call in earlier.
783. Y'all have to call in earlier.
784. Y'all wait till the last minute to call in.
785. Go ahead.
786. Absolutely.
787. I think it's important that we know ourselves.
788. In fact, we mentioned earlier in my latest book, Testimony Therapy, Decolonizing Mental Health for Black Therapists and Clients.
789. I've got a whole chapter committed to the thing of knowing yourself and really connecting with yourself.
790. So I appreciate what you're saying, sister.
791. And of course, that's trying to be railroaded.
792. I'm not African.
793. I'm indigenous.
794. Indigenous to who?
795. Indigenous to what?
796. But if you look at Van Sertema's work, they came before Columbus.
797. We sailed everywhere.
798. So, yes, we were here in the Americas.
799. But then when they started, you know, it was religious intolerance.
800. But then that sort of morphed to racial intolerance because it was easier to identify.
801. your enemy if he has darker skin.
802. And you could read that in Dr.
803. Gerald Horn's books.
804. Wrap it up for us, man.
805. We're basically out of time.
806. Well, first of all, Sylvester, thanks for
807. inviting me on. It's always good to get a
808. reconnection to my old hometown, L.A.
809. in California from way down here in the
810. Neo-Confederacy in Georgia.
811. But again, I think that, again, it's this is an important conversation.
812. I think that we need to revive those great intellectual conversations in the way they used to be done with with people like Tony Brown, where we talk about these important issues.
813. I think it's also important for us not to mistake the symptom, which might be people.
814. Ten seconds, man.
815. partners they have to not. And again, go out and find that book, Testimony Therapy,
816. Decolonizing Mental Health for Black Therapists and Clients,
817. if you want to know more about what I'm thinking these days.
818. This is Cut to the Chase. My name is Sylvester Rivers.
819. We might continue this next week.