Eco-Justice Radio - Monday, June 15, 2026

Follows the audio · click any line to jump

1. AM for Working Voices with news and views on what's happening within the labor community
2. here in Southern California, whether it's striking TV writers, organizing successes
3. at your local Starbucks, or justice for hotel workers.
4. Working Voices with hosts Joe Ayala and Enrique Sanchez is all about dignity and respect for
5. all workers.
6. Join us and be a part of the solution, Mondays at 5 AM on KPFK 90.7 FM in Los Angeles.
7. and online for the world at kpfk.org.
8. Hello, and you are listening to EcoJustice Radio.
9. a project of SoCal 350 Climate Action.
10. Our show presents environmental and climate stories from a social justice frame,
11. featuring voices not necessarily heard on mainstream media.
12. Welcome. I am Jack Eitt.
13. On today's show, Wheat Belly to Supergut,
14. restoring our microbiomes for personal and planetary health.
15. Host Carrie Kim will be interviewing Dr. William Davis,
16. author of the books, Wheat Belly, Undoctored, and Supergut. Dr. William Davis is a cardiologist and
17. New York Times number one bestselling author of the Wheat Belly book series. He is medical
18. director and founder of the Infinite Health Program, including the Infinite Health Inner
19. Circle. He is chief medical officer and co-founder of Realize Therapeutics Corporation that is
20. developing innovative solutions for the disruptive human microbiome and author of the book,
21. Supergut, a four-week plan to reprogram your microbiome, restore health, and lose weight.
22. Aloha, this is Carrie Kim.
23. Listeners, we are thrilled to bring on esteemed guest,
24. Dr. William Davis, renowned cardiologist, health advocate,
25. and author of the number one New York Times bestseller,
26. Wheat Belly, and now Super Gut,
27. a book devoted to restoring our microbiomes and our health.
28. We thank the Tongva ancestors for their enduring presence,
29. legacy, stewardship, and profound connection to this area.
30. Our show comes to you from the ancestral homelands of the Tongva and all of their relatives.
31. We encourage listeners to actively align with and support the many native nations of Turtle Island, wherever you live and beyond.
32. According to the USDA, wheat ranks third after corn and soybeans with regard to acreage, production and farm receipts, and has grown on some 35 to 37 million acres.
33. Since its peak in 1981, wheat is now declining in acreage, down some 45 million acres, which is perhaps the good news.
34. The average wheat farm is 1,000 acres and highly industrialized.
35. As of 2020, some 150 different pesticides and herbicides were commonly sprayed on winter and spring wheat.
36. Given the industrial scale of corn soy wheat and cotton crops heavy chemical usage of pesticides herbicides and fungicides has been the norm In 1958 diabetes roughly affected 1 million people
37. That figure has skyrocketed now to 36 million people in 2023. Dr. Davis is here to share how
38. eliminating wheat and restoring our gut microbiomes are the means by which we might
39. reclaim our personal, collective, and ecosystem health. Welcome, Bill. Thank you so much for
40. joining us today. Thank you for the invitation. You know, your commitment to the messages of
41. WheatBelly and now SuperGut have been indispensable for human health. You've been on the front lines
42. of health for decades now and have helped countless thousands of people reclaim their
43. health and reverse or eradicate disease conditions. It's an imperative to understand this link
44. between modern wheat, grains, or microbiomes, public and planetary health. You published
45. Wheat Belly in 2011 and then went on to create the Wheat Belly series, including cookbooks and
46. wheat detox programs. What was your original intent with the book? Surprisingly, this all
47. got started because I just wanted to help people not have heart attacks. So my mom had a coronary
48. angioplasty. And four months later, a successful procedure in New Jersey, where I grew up,
49. and four months later was found dead of sudden cardiac death. And I was doing heart procedures
50. in Wisconsin at the time. But it was an eye-opening event, Carrie, in that it became clear
51. that trying to manage a disease as dangerous and as sudden as coronary disease in all its various
52. forms, like heart attack and sudden cardiac death, was really a pointless thing. Because
53. half the people, you've heard these statistics, half the people who have a heart attack, for
54. instance, don't survive to get to the hospital. So trying to take care of everything in the hospital
55. is really an awful way to do it. So I asked this question, what could I have done for my mom and
56. similar people, right, two years, three years, five years before those kinds of catastrophes occur.
57. And so I set myself on that mission. And one of the things I did was look for better predictors.
58. And there are better predictors, by the way, such as CT heart scans and coronary calcium scores,
59. that's a whole nother conversation. But it became clear that this idea of cut saturated fat and
60. reduced cholesterol was a fool's errand was complete, utter nonsense. Though it's still
61. the prevailing opinion today, and it should have been discarded 30 or 40 years ago. Better methods
62. have been available for many, many years, decades, in fact. One of the things you learn with coronary
63. disease is that a major driving factor is not saturated fat. It's not total fat. It's not bacon.
64. It's wheat grains and sugars. And this, by the way, is based on very solid science, a lot of it
65. from California institutions, like Dr. Ron Krause, UC Berkeley. And 30 years ago, he published some
66. of the initial science showing that consumption of wheat grains and sugar, by the way, it's the
67. amylopectin A, carbohydrate unique to wheat and grains, that is the driver. So one of the things
68. you see when you do more advanced testing to identify the causes of heart disease and discard
69. this nonsense about cholesterol, and you look at the particles that cause heart disease, you see
70. that something called small LDL particles
71. are the driver of cardiovascular disease.
72. I asked what causes this Well Dr Ron Krause and other people work at Hopkins and University of Texas told us wheat grains and sugars So I asked people to remove wheat grains and sugars
73. And I saw some measures of small LDL drop to the floor.
74. But I also saw people say things like this.
75. I didn't know I was going to lose 47 pounds.
76. You didn't tell me.
77. You didn't tell me I was going to lose eight inches off my waist and I have to stop three
78. blood pressure medicines, that my eczema and psoriasis would go away, and that my ulcerative
79. colitis would be dramatically better.
80. So I stumbled for purposes of coronary risk to a world.
81. Now, of course, I asked, why is this?
82. Why would removing the food advocated by all agencies, all doctors, all dieticians, why would removing it yield unexpected and dramatic health effects?
83. And that's why I started to ask, well, what happened to wheat and related grains that will allow these phenomena to emerge in our time?
84. And you dove down that rabbit hole pretty deep.
85. Yeah. So I don't want your listeners to interpret this to mean that traditional strains of wheat are safe for you, but they're clearly much less harmful.
86. And what we have today as bagels or bread or pasta is a completely different thing.
87. It's an 18 to 24 inch tall, high yield, semi dwarf strain, they say.
88. It looks very different, has a thick stalk, large seeds, large seed head.
89. And the change in appearance is accompanied by dramatic changes in the genetics and biochemistry.
90. It's completely different than what your mom or grandma had, say, 50 years ago.
91. So it's this new strain of high-yield semi-dwarf wheat, and it's very different.
92. And a lot of the adverse effects have been amplified.
93. So one of the things, for instance, is the gliadin protein.
94. People say gluten, but it's the gliadin protein within gluten that is the culprit for many of these problems.
95. They changed the structure of the gliadin protein and amplified its appetite stimulating effects.
96. Gliadin protein is indigestible or largely indigestible to humans.
97. We just don't have the enzymes to break it down because they're the seeds of grasses.
98. Humans are not adapted to consuming grasses.
99. So this gliadin protein digested down to four or five amino acid lung peptides across the brain.
100. This is research, by the way, from the NIH, National Institute of Health.
101. It's not my speculation.
102. Yes.
103. They bind to opioid receptors where they amplify appetite.
104. They stimulate appetite.
105. That was one change.
106. Another, among the many changes introduced into this new strain of wheat,
107. was an increase in the content of wheat germ agglutinin.
108. It sounds like gluten, but it's unrelated that way.
109. It's called agglutinin because it agglutinates or clots blood.
110. Right.
111. But it contracts blood.
112. And so farmers love wheat germ agglutinin because it's a great pest-resistant,
113. It wards off insects and molds under wheat plants.
114. So they chose strains, amplified and crossbred strains for increased wheat germagglutinin, not recognizing that wheat germagglutinin is known to be a very potent bowel toxin.
115. There's some other change introduced.
116. So what, and the effort to increase yield per acre, that was their goal.
117. It wasn't a toy with us.
118. It was increased yield per acre.
119. They did succeed.
120. The yield per acre has gone up dramatically since 1960.
121. They inadvertently amplified the toxicity of the wheat plant.
122. Well, the message of wheat belly is as relevant as when you first conceived the book.
123. And what else do listeners need to really know about modern wheat?
124. I mean, I know you had mentioned that you didn't want people to even think that ancient wheat, for example, einkorn, the non-hybridized wheat, is beneficial.
125. But I know some people would like to probably argue that or say oh sprout the weed and organic wheat But what are the problems with thinking that even einkorn is more beneficial or something that you could continue to consume
126. Well, I encourage everybody to think clearly. If something is less bad, make it good. So what
127. happened to the original humans in the Middle East who consumed einkorn, the ancient ancestral
128. 14 chromosome form of wheat. By the way, modern wheat is a 42 chromosome. That's completely
129. different. So what happened to those humans who first turned? Well, what's remarkable about that
130. is before people can be turned to consumption of wheat and other grains, there are other grains
131. too, like millet and maize, of course, in Central America, and rice in Southeast Asia.
132. What were the people like before that who were hunter-gatherers and not agriculturalists?
133. Well, they hunted and gathered, they killed animals, ate their organs, ate their meat, fish, shellfish, underground root vegetables, berries, etc.
134. There was almost no tooth decay.
135. People are surprised to hear that, that 1 to 3% of all teeth recovered from that era showed evidence of decay, tooth loss, abscess, and misalignment.
136. despite, so tooth decay, uncommon, despite the lack of fluoridated toothpaste, toothbrushes, dental floss, dentists, orthodontists.
137. When wheat and grains were adopted, first wild, then farmed about 10,000 years ago, there was an explosion in tooth decay.
138. 16 to 49% of all teeth recovered showed cavity formation decay, abscess formation, tooth loss, and misalignment.
139. There was a doubling of knee arthritis, and there's a marked amplification of mineral deficiencies, especially iron deficiency.
140. You can see that in the bony record.
141. It's called parotid hyperostosis and other patterns in bones.
142. And that's, by the way, due to the phytates in grains, something called phytates in grains that bind minerals.
143. And so if you ate, let's say, a sandwich with turkey breast, the phytates in the bread will bind all the iron or most of the iron in your bowels and you pass it out in the toilet.
144. That's why iron deficiency anemia, big cause for iron deficiency anemia, is grain consumption.
145. The phytate, like wheat germic gluten, farmers and agricultural scientists have increased the content of phytates because it's also pest resistant.
146. Right. Recognizing that it causes flagrant mineral deficiencies, specifically iron, zinc, magnesium, calcium and others.
147. So we're told often that consumptive grains is absolutely required for nutrients and for fiber.
148. The opposite is true. That is not true. In fact, grain consumption causes numerous deficiencies.
149. I think the mineral deficiencies is something that people largely don't know.
150. I mean, I think there's a large feeling that what you have brought to light with wheat belly, a lot of that information is basically suppressed.
151. I know how you likened it to the tobacco industry and the same thing that happened with cigarettes and nicotine.
152. Yes. There's a lot of money at stake here. A lot of money at stake in the wheat industry, in the food industry.
153. You know, in the 1980s, we started to see that virtually all processed foods had wheat, corn or soy in them.
154. And, you know, is it because it's cheap? Is it just because it's cheap filler? Or I speculate that people in big food, you know, when big food releases a new product, they don't do so blindly. They test it. They get a bunch of people, typically housewives, who come into their laboratory and taste the food and give feedback. I've got to believe that the change.
155. in the gliadin protein of wheat in the 1980s that was associated with the marked amplification of
156. appetite had to be recognized by the big food companies who test their foods. And I got to
157. believe they saw that incessant hunger was a byproduct of consumption of the new forms of wheat.
158. Could you talk a little bit, in your book, you speak about the opioid receptor and a little
159. bit more about this addictive quality of wheat? Because that was really shocking
160. to understand that. But maybe you could explain that to listeners.
161. Yeah. So if you eat an egg or a pork chop or some other source of protein, your body has the digestive apparatus to break it down into single amino acids.
162. And that converts the skin and liver and heart muscle and all the components of the body.
163. You eat the gliadin protein of wheat.
164. And by the way, wheat germ and gluten are completely impervious to human digestion.
165. But the gliadin protein is partly digestible.
166. It's broken down to four or five amino acid long peptides, but small enough to cross into the brain and bind to the opioid receptor.
167. They'll make you high, stimulate appetite.
168. But in people who have susceptibilities, it has other effects.
169. So in people with paranoid schizophrenia, it provokes delusions, paranoid delusions, and auditory hallucinations, hearing voices.
170. in children with autism and adhd it provokes behavioral outbursts and abbreviates their
171. attention span even more than they were experiencing in people with binge eating
172. disorder bulimia it provokes 24-hour day food obsessions and on and on in other words the
173. gliding derived opioid peptides yes or appetite stimulants but they're also psychoactive peptides
174. they have a variety of effects what's dramatic about this is once people realize this
175. and say somebody with, let's say, binge eating disorder recognize this and they stop,
176. I'll get this all the time. They'll say things like, for the first time in 25 years,
177. I no longer have 24-hour-a-day food obsessions. You won't find me sitting in front of the
178. refrigerator at 3 a.m. binging and then running to the toilet to stick my finger down my throat.
179. That all stopped with the elimination of glide and drive opioid peptides.
180. But you can imagine, if big food and other food industries have access to an appetite stimulant,
181. They will put it to good use. Now, the only way we're going to find proof of that, Carrie,
182. is if, as you point out, we sue them in a class action suit and get their internal documents.
183. So they won't share it with us till that happens. Well, hopefully that does happen. We never know.
184. You know, I love that you speak about how on this continent in the 40s and early 50s,
185. obesity was largely unheard of. People had flat stomachs. You know, as of 2023,
186. 36% of Americans are considered obese. Would you say it was really the late, I know you had
187. mentioned about in the 1980s, everything, all the fast foods had wheat, corn, soy in it. And
188. I'm sure we could see that track of the increase in obesity tracking right alongside the addition
189. of these items in the food and this prevalence of the peak of wheat at 1981. So what do you have to
190. say about this rise in obesity because it is phenomenal and shocking. You know, it's multiple
191. factors, of course, not just wheat, but as you point out, the proliferation of fast food who
192. love grains because they're cheap filler, but also it coincides with the emergence of dietary
193. guidelines from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the USDA because there was just
194. a small group of people who believe that cutting saturated fat was absolutely necessary to reduce
195. cardiovascular risk. That was, by the way,
196. that was not based in science. It was based on
197. their belief But it became codified into dietary guidelines Cut your fat cut your saturated fat eat more grains everything in moderation All the messages we all familiar
198. with. And that released in 1977 also coincides perfectly with the rise in obesity. Now you can't
199. prove cause and effect with that kind of parallel curves, but I believe it is at least likely that
200. the dietary guidelines that encourage reduction of fat, when you reduce fat, it leaves you hungry.
201. and most people compensate with some kind of grain or sugar product so that was a big contributor
202. the predatory practices of food companies also especially big food companies where they're going
203. to sell you things that are addictive they have other addictive components like sugar and salt
204. not to say salt is bad but in this context it can be right and so we have many vicious cycles
205. running here. And all we have to do is go to local Walmart to see the result that Americans
206. are astoundingly obese. It's not just about appearance and self-esteem. It's also about
207. the numerous health consequences. And this is a very costly experiment also. And of course,
208. you know, it's really brought to a head with the emergence of these crazy, ridiculous GLP-1
209. agonists, these drugs like Wegovy and Ozempic. Somebody pays, say, $15,000 to lose 30
210. pounds. You lose weight by those drugs, about 10 pounds of that 30 pounds. Now, third is muscle.
211. And muscle is the primary driver of basal metabolic rate, your calorie burn rate. So a woman, let's
212. say, pays $15,000 to lose 30 pounds. Most of them can't afford to do that indefinitely. They stop
213. the drug. She regains about 27 pounds, almost all of which is fat. And she is less healthy at the
214. end of that experience than she was at the start. But guess who lined their pockets?
215. The pharmaceutical industry got rich based on this. It's anticipated to be $150 billion a year.
216. I'm shocked that the FDA approved those drugs without an insistence on long-term outcomes,
217. because it's looking as if people who lose weight by that method as a solution to misguided dietary
218. guidelines, it looks like these people incur far greater healthcare costs or more likely to become
219. pre-diabetic and diabetic or more prone to coronary disease, breast cancer, ovarian cancer,
220. cognitive decline, dementia, and other health problems at the end of their drug use with these
221. drugs. And so it's essentially a tax on the U.S. taxpayer with the money going into big pharma.
222. And exactly. Bill, we're going to take a break right here and we'll be back in just a moment
223. to talk more about the visual fat of wheat belly.
224. Hey listeners, quick break here.
225. We hope that you're enjoying Ecojustice Radio.
226. Stay connected by subscribing on all major podcast apps
227. and visit our website, ecojusticeradio.org
228. to check out previous shows and guests,
229. listen to extended episodes
230. and get connected with us on social media.
231. Today, you're listening to Wheat Belly to Supergut,
232. restoring our microbiomes
233. for personal and planetary health.
234. with host Carrie Kim and guest Dr. William Davis, author of the books,
235. Wheat Belly, Undoctored and Supergut. We're back with Dr. William Davis,
236. author of Wheat Belly and Supergut. And Bill, could you speak, we've been talking about fat
237. and you were just talking about this one example of people who are trying to lose weight using
238. these certain pharmaceutical drugs and the outcomes of that. But what about the visceral
239. fat of wheat belly Why is belly fat a significant marker What is it signifying about health So when people are overweight or obese the real source of health problems is in so abdominal visceral fat
240. All that means is the fat that encircles abdominal organs, fat that encircles liver,
241. small intestine, colon, spleen, kidneys, et cetera.
242. The fat in your buttocks or thighs or neck or chest, it might be unsightly.
243. You might not like it.
244. It might be stress to your weight-bearing joints, but it doesn't have metabolic implications.
245. It doesn't raise your blood sugar, blood pressure, for instance.
246. So the source of almost most of the health problems associated with overweight and obesity originates with the fat in the abdomen.
247. If we're going to lose weight, we want to use methods that specifically target that abdominal visceral fat, and it gives you greater health benefits.
248. And the subcutaneous, the other sources of fat, like buttocks and thighs, will be lost faster.
249. but most methods of weight loss so if you cut calories you know move more eat less that nonsense
250. or use one of those drugs or even undergo a bariatric procedure those are better at losing
251. subcutaneous fat and they virtually all guarantee loss of muscle which thereby guarantees that you
252. regain the weight you may have paid you know your fifteen thousand dollars for your we go via
253. or Ozempic only to regain that weight. So you just blew a bunch of money and had your health
254. deteriorate. And likewise, the bariatric procedures, these are not benign procedures.
255. And it is the rule that you regain at least some of the weight. And by the way, you have
256. other forms of health deterioration. So the conventional solutions are awful. So a smarter
257. way is let's focus on strategies, very easy to adopt, by the way, that specifically target
258. abdominal visceral fat, you get greater health benefits like reduction in risk for heart disease
259. and high blood pressure and insulin resistance and blood sugar, and accelerates loss of the
260. subcutaneous fat and other areas. Well, all of this is absolutely vital information for people
261. to have, especially when we just, like we've said, you just look around and you see this rampant
262. obesity, obesity in children. I mean, all these things we know in our gut that this is not a
263. right way of living, of course. And then many people give up wheat or have given up wheat,
264. but then they consume or replace the wheat with gluten-free foods. And I wonder if you could speak
265. a bit more about the problems with this whole gluten-free parade that's going on in food.
266. It's a cruel joke, isn't it, Carrie? So we know that wheat, wheat products, because the amylopectin A
267. raises blood sugar higher than almost all other foods. When you raise blood sugar really high
268. after, say, a bagel or pasta. You also provoke insulin, and that's the process that leads to
269. insulin resistance that grows abdominal visceral fat and leads to type 2 diabetes and heart disease
270. and dementia, et cetera. Well, so foods that raise blood sugar and thereby insulin create this
271. process. So wheat's at the top of the list. Is there anything worse? Yes. Cornstarch, rice flour,
272. tapioca starch, and potato flour. Gluten-free flours. That's what I say. It's almost like a
273. cruel joke. People say, oh, I went gluten-free, but I gained 30 pounds. I'm now a type 2 diabetic,
274. and my waist increased by six inches. Well, that's because you turned, once again, when we rely on
275. industry to teach us how to eat, they steer us down the path of their profitability, not down
276. the path of health. So it's okay to be gluten-free, just don't consume those gluten-free processed
277. foods made with those four flours. And the reason they raise blood sugar is they also have other
278. starches like amylopectins And when you reduce into a fine flour you increase surface area for digestion exponentially hugely and it raises blood sugar sky high So a gluten say
279. bread or pancake mix or bagel made with gluten-free flours raises blood sugar higher than anything
280. else known, including table sugar. And including wheat, I thought you said that it's even higher
281. than wheat, which is just, it's just incredible. I mean, I didn't actually realize that too. I was
282. eating gluten-free crackers, these types of things. I don't eat those things anymore. I mean,
283. I think everyone really needs to be vigilant, hyper-vigilant on reading ingredients because
284. you'll find that in all, you walk down the chip or cracker aisle, it's going to be in every single
285. food just about. Well, Bill, thank you so much for all that you have done around health, around
286. the microbiome, educating so many people, the deleterious effects of wheat and to get off of
287. wheat and the healthy whole grains. How can listeners stay in contact with you and how can
288. they learn more about restoring their gut microbiome? What are the ways that they can
289. reach you? So a lot of this is laid out in my super gut book. Also, I have a busy website called
290. drdavisinfinitehealth.com. I have several thousand blog posts. We have a very busy discussion
291. forum. There's an area called the Inner Circle in that website. We have a very busy forum,
292. hundreds of thousands of discussions, as well as I do this kind of two-way Zoom,
293. typically once a week, where we talk for a couple hours about these kinds of topics.
294. Yeah, it'll only continue to grow exponentially. I feel that there's a lot of work being done in
295. this world of probiotics and restoration. The inner restoration is also the outer restoration,
296. and that's exactly why we wanted to bring you on the show today. So thank you so much, Bill,
297. and so much success. I really hope that as many people pick up SuperGut as they have WheatBelly
298. and that this continues to help heal our own personal health as well as collective health
299. and planetary health. Thanks for having me. And please keep up your terrific work.
300. We will. We absolutely will. Thank you so much, Bill.
301. Hey, listeners, to check out the extended recording of this show or to explore our other
302. shows, visit our website, EcoJusticeRadio.org and subscribe to our podcast. This has been
303. Ecojustice Radio and our show Wheat Belly to Supergut, Restoring Our Microbiomes for Personal
304. and Planetary Health. Thank you to our guest, Dr. William Davis, and thank you always to our
305. listeners. Please connect with us on social media at Ecojustice Radio, SoCal 350, and Adventures
306. in Waste. If you like what you have heard and you want others to be informed, subscribe and share
307. the episodes.
308. You have been listening to Ecojustice Radio, a project of SoCal 350, executive producer,
309. myself, Jack Ait, producer and co-host, Jessica Aldridge, co-host, Carrie Kim,
310. and engineer and original music by Blake Quake Beats.
311. And until next time, remember, the power is yours.
312. The People's Game returns to KPFK.
313. You're invited to join host Alan Minsky every Friday evening from 5 to 6 p.m.
314. He's diving deep into the upcoming action on the pitch
315. and the fierce politics, economics, and culture behind the scenes.
316. from host nation corruption to global human rights,
317. to get the world's game like only Pacifica Rates,
318. to get the world's game like...
319. Only Pacifica Radio can deliver.
320. Tune in this Friday at 5 p.m. and every Friday until July.