IMRU - LGBT Issues - Monday, June 15, 2026

Follows the audio · click any line to jump

1. And you're listening to KPFK, 90.7 FM in Los Angeles and 98.7 FM in Santa Barbara.
2. Thank you.
3. Every story, every play, feel it, babe!
4. All the colors of the rainbow, all the voices of the wind
5. Every dream that reaches out
6. That reaches out to find where love begins
7. Every word of every story
8. And every star in every sky
9. Good evening and welcome to IMRU,
10. the world's longest-running LGBTQIA2S plus radio show,
11. broadcasting out loud and out proud on KPFK 90.7 FM Los Angeles since 1974. I'm your host and
12. executive producer Michael Taylor Gray. June is Pride Month and one of the things I love most
13. about this time of year is that it reminds us there is no single LGBTQ plus story. Some of us
14. found acceptance early in life. Others spent years or even decades finding the courage to be fully
15. ourselves. Some journeys are celebrated publicly. Others happen quietly, one difficult step at a
16. time. Tonight's guest knows something about both. For many people, Ty Herndon first entered their
17. lives through his music. Songs like What Mattered Most, Living in a Moment, and It Must Be Love
18. helped establish him as one of country music's most successful artists of the 1990s. But as
19. Successful as his career is on the outside, there were chapters of his life that remained hidden from public view for many years.
20. Like a lot of us, Ty has a story that's far more complicated than what people see on the surface.
21. In his new memoir, What Mattered Most, he's finally telling the story from beginning to now.
22. He writes candidly about addiction, mental health struggles, faith, recovery, heartbreak, and the tremendous pressure of trying to protect a public career while hiding deeply personal parts of his life.
23. What struck me most about this book is that it's not really a story about fame. It's a story about survival. It's about falling down, getting back up, and eventually finding the courage to stop running from yourself.
24. And I think that's a story a lot of people, a lot of us, whether they're LGBTQ plus or not, will recognize.
25. And tonight we also talk about the beautiful recording you hearing right now Testify to Love featuring Michael Passans founding member of Avalon and also featuring Avalon vocalist Melissa Green Ty Herndon welcome to IMRU
26. Thank you so much. It was an amazing introduction. It was beautiful. Thank you.
27. Well, it's a testament to you. We're Testify the Tie.
28. I'm having a little cup of tea. I went to see a friend for Pride.
29. I went up to Atlanta to see 175 Gay Men's Chorus.
30. Oh, wow.
31. In an amphitheater.
32. And they were doing the music of Elton John.
33. But I got my heart full, but I came back with a cold.
34. Well, yeah.
35. It's the gift that keeps on giving.
36. So you're sitting here at my house.
37. You've got the cough syrup and the napkins and a great conversation.
38. Yeah.
39. So there you go.
40. You know, I tell you, my best friend from childhood from Ohio, Ted Mayberry,
41. He's listening right now and he's just fanning out over you.
42. He just got so excited when I told him that Ty Herndon was going to be on the show.
43. So he got a lot of fans.
44. Yeah.
45. Oh, man.
46. I would not be here today without the beautiful hearts and support of, I call them, actually, I call them, really, they're my chosen family because they've supported me so long.
47. And you just mentioned Testify to Love.
48. It's just brought lesions of new fans on board.
49. And it's what's beautiful about that.
50. We'll get into that, too, when we talk about it.
51. Oh, yeah.
52. The individual stories that Melissa has now.
53. And Michael, he said he just wanted a little bit of his ministry back.
54. But the universe gave him like 30 tabernacles.
55. Oh, yeah.
56. And I like Winona's version, too.
57. It's just a song that really speaks to people.
58. Michael got to meet her the other night.
59. It was great.
60. She's the country Elvis to me.
61. She is.
62. She's wonderful.
63. But this is about you tonight.
64. You know, and what brought you to me, to IMRU, to our listeners here on KPFK, just like with Brandy Clark, was our mutual friend, Del Shores.
65. Yes.
66. I just saw him, and I probably hadn't seen him in 15 years.
67. Good friends just pick up just like we left it, you know?
68. Yeah, you know, and when he posted about your appearance in Nashville, his fundraiser for the Del Shores Foundation, for his writer's foundation,
69. I've not seen him smile that big
70. and I can't tell you how long
71. since the birth of his grandson
72. it's a cute story
73. because Melissa and Michael and I went
74. and he had texted us to sing
75. Testify to Love
76. I had responded we would absolutely love to
77. so the event's
78. happening and it stops
79. and Melissa and Michael are standing
80. there and he said
81. thanks everybody for coming
82. and I said,
83. Dale, did you not want us to sing?
84. He said, you never answered my text.
85. I was like, really? You're standing right there?
86. And I went and looked and I had not hit send.
87. Oh, there's that part.
88. So he ran outside and got everybody
89. back in. He goes, we have a special treat. I was like,
90. of course we're here. Of course we're going to sing.
91. What was beautiful about that moment
92. is that there was a rainbow
93. outside.
94. That's the second time in my life that
95. that's happened. The first time
96. with Ryan Ruby, an LGBTQ country artist.
97. And we did a duet together and a double rainbow happened.
98. I said, well, son, if that doesn't tell you
99. that it's going to be a success, I don't know what will.
100. I mean, that's a sign.
101. That's a sign.
102. It is.
103. It is.
104. It just, you know, represents so much love.
105. And for that rainbow to come out that day
106. with the message of this, a test of final love,
107. because man we well we just go and talk about it We had no idea the vein we were hitting We just wanted to I say we I got an album that turns my contemporary Christian album turns I think 15 years old in August
108. And we wanted to add three new songs to it.
109. So it was a perfect opportunity to say, hey, Michael, pass this.
110. Let's cut this song.
111. Now, how did Melissa join you guys?
112. I know her connection to Avalon, of course.
113. We've been friends for a long, long time.
114. Actually, Melissa married Alex and I, not once but twice.
115. A spiritual marriage and then the big one for everybody.
116. Oh, that's nice.
117. Yeah.
118. That's why you get all the rainbows.
119. Hey, man, I'll take that.
120. It's all yours.
121. Excuse me.
122. Well, that's wonderful.
123. I met Michael through mutual friends not long after he was asked to leave Avalon because he was gay.
124. And when you hear his story, I'm like—
125. I know the feeling.
126. The same thing happened to me in my Baptist church years ago.
127. So Michael and I, we could swap stories on that one.
128. My grandmother's chartered the church we grew up in.
129. But nobody's going to kick me out.
130. But what she did say is if she said there's a if you got a thousand beautiful hearts on this table right here, you see a thousand beautiful hearts.
131. There's no race, color, religion, sex, thousand beautiful hearts that God made.
132. So there's always a seat in this church for everyone.
133. And so I was blessed.
134. I didn't have to deconstruct anything.
135. You know what I say to that?
136. Gay men.
137. Gay men.
138. Gay men.
139. But man, there are there are just I love that.
140. There are just thousands of deconstructed evangelicals out there that, for some reason, it landed right into their spirit.
141. And I said, that little song probably was the song that gave them a little bit of encouragement when they were 14, 15, knowing his big secret about themselves.
142. and hearing a song from a huge group, Avalon,
143. which most of them could only have three records.
144. It was Point of Grace, Avalon, and maybe Michael.
145. Oh, I just lost his name.
146. So three albums.
147. Yeah.
148. Well, you see the news every day, just the age that we live in right now.
149. It's like the joy is being sucked out of the air.
150. Right.
151. And the first time I saw that clip when I saw Del's posting and saw you guys singing and the joy, just the sheer joy that you were putting out there.
152. And I immediately felt lighter.
153. I smiled.
154. I was happy.
155. I was like, that's the remedy I needed.
156. And I think people are seeking that in droves.
157. Well, I've had a lot of people say that it gave them the courage and license to speak up about their own stories.
158. Oh, good.
159. And they also said, we get to love this song again because it meant so much to them.
160. Speaking of that, speaking of that, Mr. Ty Herndon, you've spent more than 30 years sharing your life through your music.
161. But, you know, you've said that this memoir, What Mattered Most, gave you the opportunity to finally tell your whole truth.
162. Now, what was the moment when you realized you were ready to put everything on page and write this memoir?
163. I'm still waiting for that moment.
164. It's on its way.
165. I think the moment happens throughout the book.
166. I mean there were when David approached me I had for years you know I thought about it and spoke with people about doing a book about my journey But I guess I like to say I spiritual but I also a God guy
167. What do you mean by that?
168. I know I just said the spiritual part.
169. What do you mean by the God guy?
170. It means that the bad Christians have ruined the good word Christians.
171. So I just –
172. You're making it your own, Ty.
173. Yeah, I avoid that and just say, here's what I say because I get to talk to so many kids out there.
174. You are the church.
175. That's right.
176. No one can kick you out of your church.
177. My grandmother taught me that.
178. She goes, you get to build your foundation and your congregation.
179. And I always say to the kids, I say, and I'd like to be a charter member.
180. And build your church.
181. That church can be in a hockey town.
182. It can be in a drag bar.
183. It can be anywhere.
184. Michael and I went out saying testify to love for a dear friend of ours
185. She has a once a month gospel night at a huge gay bar here in Nashville
186. And Michael who's been on the world stages
187. I said I bet you never thought that would happen
188. Hey I did Dolly Parton drag upstairs at JR's in Dallas
189. When I was doing Southern Baptist Sissies with Del Shores and Leslie Jordan
190. And way back when
191. So that was my church
192. Yes.
193. Doing nine to five in Dolly Parton drag.
194. It goes back to those hearts on that table.
195. God does not make mistakes.
196. That's right.
197. Yes.
198. No.
199. It's a beautiful thing.
200. No, she doesn't.
201. Yes.
202. I thank God for the encouragement of some beautiful souls in my own family that also gave me the courage circling back to answer your question.
203. Yeah.
204. Knowing, I don't think that I went into this prepared to talk about some of the things I talked about.
205. Yeah.
206. You mean in the book?
207. In the book.
208. So as you were writing it, just things just started to unfold and you just felt more.
209. Well, God sent me David, sent me my husband and David Ritz.
210. David is a dear friend now.
211. I think he's written over 151 books.
212. Wow.
213. But huge books for Aretha Franklin.
214. Yeah.
215. And Willie Nelson, The Rolling Stones.
216. And the list goes on and on.
217. And so working with him, conversation to conversation.
218. Yeah.
219. I really truly had no idea of the timeline of my own life.
220. It was just so jumbled up.
221. So David goes, well, that's easy.
222. He calls me, hon.
223. He goes, hon, that's easy.
224. He said, you've been telling your story from the time you sang in front of your grandmother's radio show.
225. Go back and listen to all of your albums.
226. He goes, there's your timeline.
227. He goes, you've been screaming the truth all along.
228. Pronouns may have been different.
229. He goes, but that's the well we're going to run from.
230. And it blew my mind.
231. It was so true.
232. So, but man, I wasn't prepared to really walk through details of a horrific abusive arrest.
233. And all the feelings that went around it, that I got myself in a place that I wasn't going to be believed.
234. So just be quiet.
235. Shut up and sing, as the Dixie Chicks were told.
236. Yeah.
237. Look at Natalie Main going, I'm not going to say that to her.
238. Yeah.
239. I'm not ready to make nice.
240. She could kick my butt.
241. Exactly.
242. Not ready to make nice.
243. Exactly.
244. Well, you know, that was my joke about that is that the Dixie Chicks and Ty Herndon almost single-handedly took down Nashville Sony.
245. Thank you.
246. And it's a.
247. You know, you've got to shake things up.
248. But you know what?
249. Winners, what I call a spirit in me that has always been the winner is the gift that God gave me.
250. And my music has always been the truth.
251. Oh, yes.
252. My music and my gift has not been to any treatment centers.
253. It didn't have mental health issues.
254. It was the one thing about me that was the best thing about me.
255. and I can tell you this after many years
256. that it still remains in the front seat
257. sitting right next to me.
258. The music will never stop.
259. Me and, I'm going to do it like Loretta.
260. I'm going to retire on that,
261. probably retire and die on that tour bus.
262. But here's the deal.
263. Music, love, and God have saved me
264. more times every day,
265. but more times than I can tell you.
266. And this book has been described as still Magnolias meets the Kardashians.
267. And it's kind of dead on with that because it's,
268. that's a little dangerous.
269. Drink your juice,
270. Shelby.
271. Drink your juice,
272. Kim.
273. The first thing you read in this book,
274. chapter one is as much as I want you to love me and like me,
275. it may not happen.
276. Well,
277. you know,
278. I'm just thrilled.
279. Really.
280. It's such a blessing.
281. And I just, I'm so, I'm honored.
282. I'm honored to have you here and that you're taking this time with us, with our listeners here at KPFK on IMRU.
283. Thank you.
284. Yeah, we're going to take one little 20-second break.
285. We're going to replay a little bit of our bluegrass version of our IMRU theme song, which we created just for you, Ty Herndon.
286. I love that.
287. I heard it.
288. We'll be back with more of you after this.
289. I'm so sorry.
290. I like the clout track.
291. Every color, every name, every story, every flame.
292. I love it.
293. Who's that singer?
294. That's a great singer.
295. Oh, honey.
296. We'll talk about that later.
297. But it needs to be you.
298. We need to have a Ty Herndon, IMRU theme song, bluegrass version.
299. Yes.
300. Yes.
301. Just say yes.
302. I'll do it.
303. My producer and I can do it.
304. We'll do that in half a day and get it to you the next day.
305. My heart is pitter-pattering right now.
306. Oh, my Lord.
307. Okay.
308. So you say it, you build it, it will come.
309. That's right, if you do it.
310. Right, man.
311. I do believe that.
312. We're back here with Ty Herndon, the legendary country singer, raconteur, storyteller.
313. Ty, you are, let me tell you, for much of your career, you were navigating a tremendous success professionally
314. while privately carrying this burden that we've been talking about,
315. hiding your sexuality in a very traditional industry.
316. Now, looking back now, what was that emotional cost of living two lives at the same time?
317. When you look back on that, what was that like for you?
318. Well, a lot of that has come to life in just doing these interviews
319. and that's going on with Michael and Melissa and I.
320. And Michael and I agreed you know for anyone to say it a choice JVK is Look I have that multiple choice test
321. It's not true.
322. That could be the one joke in a comedy store.
323. Right.
324. Because, listen, Mr. Michael Passes and I can tell you, lost count of the times we were on our face at the church, at home, in our bedrooms, asking God to take this away.
325. because I didn't want it.
326. It's like,
327. this doesn't fit in
328. with a pig farmer from Alabama.
329. You know,
330. I want to,
331. I don't,
332. how come I have to be this different?
333. And it did not fit
334. in the blueprint of my life,
335. but also didn't have
336. all the beautiful information
337. that we have today.
338. That's right.
339. But I also had a family
340. that loved me no matter what.
341. So,
342. You had that support at home?
343. Yes, absolutely.
344. Yeah.
345. You're so fortunate. That's not everybody's story in our community, and you know that.
346. Well, I mean, I did get married twice, just to prove it not true.
347. So they're probably scratching their heads the whole time.
348. So did Elton John. Hello.
349. Yes. When is your wife going to have hairy legs?
350. Why don't you just come on and do, you know.
351. Now, wait a minute. That could happen today. So there you go.
352. Ladies, if you got hairy legs, I love you, and I love your hairy legs.
353. Go to France.
354. Go to France.
355. But this is why this book is so beautiful.
356. I'm jumping back and forth because it's also connected.
357. Well, life isn't necessarily linear.
358. Yeah, man.
359. But it is.
360. The way David wrote my story, it's so full of color.
361. My own mother said when she read it, she goes,
362. Son, there were moments that I kind of knew about what happened,
363. but I didn't really want to know everything.
364. She said, but all I ever wanted to do was hug you in that moment.
365. She goes, and in these pages, I got to do that.
366. So it was just the things that people, the little stories, every part of the book connects people in such a different way.
367. And like my aunt, she loved the chapter Shampoo Boy because I talked about Tammy Wynette in it.
368. And that story is so beautiful.
369. It's Tammy Wynette, that's right.
370. yeah so it connects on many levels and um do you stand by your man
371. well i am now i don't think i knew how before but you're learning yeah this has a lot of power of
372. standing right there so oh man but you know it's hard to believe that it's only been it was 12 years
373. ago that you became the first major male country artist to come out publicly as gay that's a lot
374. pressure yeah you think that's a historic milestone now but now at the time it was a deeply personal
375. decision obviously now yeah what and i think i and i'm seeing because i look to country i grew up in
376. country music that's all my parents listened to my mom had like three or four albums that i can
377. remember and some eight tracks and one was merle haggard eight track and i remember her charlie
378. pride album you know um but all this you know the radio in the car was always tuned to country music
379. radio and so uh and i still love it to this day it's the foundation of my musical you know um
380. dna and um but i love that but i'm gonna use that by the way and i didn't i didn't see
381. i didn't see us represented i don't see other than charlie pride i really never saw any other
382. black artists represented and over the last 10 years i'd say uh roughly it's really starting
383. to open up When I see country music opening up and embracing artists of color and now there this whole Latin country music movement that really starting to take off And I just see so much happening within country music that embracing all walks of life including now those of us within the career community
384. And there you were, you know, leading the charge, you know, it's like the Olympian carrying the flag into the stadium.
385. Now, I got to tell you, I didn't think I'd be leading the charge for two gay guys and one affirming woman to sit at the number one position.
386. And I mean, CeCe Wynand had been up there forever. I was like, I never, that wasn't on my bucket list. I love Christian music. I grew up with it. You know, worship songs, I grew up with all that. And I've never had to let any of that go. Because if you've met me, you know, I won't, number one.
387. But it's the foundation of who I am, and no one's going to tell me what songs I can worship to, how I'm going to worship, and especially where I'm at today.
388. This is my pulpit.
389. I'm not going to let you tell somebody that they're less than.
390. I needed you at the Baptist Temple when I was 17.
391. There you go.
392. I needed you there to help back me up.
393. I had a preacher shame me in chapter two, tent revival.
394. And it's just, I was 10 and preaching and singing, breaking the house down.
395. At 10 years old?
396. Yes.
397. I was called to preach at 10.
398. Oh, wow.
399. And I might have been just a little flamboyant.
400. I don't know.
401. People have said, but you know.
402. I'm not one to judge.
403. I learned how to be butch over the years.
404. I learned how to be butch.
405. Yes.
406. I found my manliness.
407. when you say it like Leslie Jordan
408. it's hard to
409. you gotta really hit that butch
410. if you say it like that
411. Leslie Jordan is never gonna be butch
412. he said he fell out of his mom
413. he fell out of his mom right in a pair of high heels
414. I love that man
415. I miss him so much
416. oh I do too
417. he was a joy to know and a joy to love
418. nobody was more surprised
419. at his success and joyed about
420. and just filled with joy about it than he was
421. As I always tell people, don't mess with that little firecracker.
422. You don't want to take him out.
423. Oh, no, no.
424. We were doing something about the sissies at the Mac Theater in Dallas.
425. And somebody in the audience started getting a little chatty.
426. He stopped right in the middle of what he was saying.
427. He looked out.
428. He says, shut your pie hole, honey.
429. Mine's up here making money.
430. There you go.
431. And then he picked right up where he left off.
432. Yes, he did.
433. Oh, man.
434. I love it.
435. Now, Ty, you know this is Pride Month, not New Sioux.
436. because, you know, you got your cold at Pride in Nashville.
437. That's right.
438. And here at I Am R U, we've spent the last few weeks
439. celebrating visibility, authenticity, and community.
440. Now, what does Pride mean to you today
441. compared with what it meant to you as a young man
442. trying to find his place in the world?
443. Well, I mean, you know, I can honestly tell you
444. I had no idea about Prides.
445. I lived in a small box for a long time,
446. and my very first Pride that I went to
447. was in Dallas, Texas when I was living there.
448. And, um, and my whole life changed when I saw drag queens on stilts.
449. Oh, yes.
450. You've taken them in and then they're on stilts.
451. Ladies, y'all have the power.
452. You have the power of the room right now.
453. But I am what, what pride means to me today is, is the work we've done.
454. And I, it wasn't just me doing it by myself.
455. Um, the great leaders that, that I've leaned on and, and then the, and then the
456. kids that have learned strength and have found their power It a proudest chosen family It educating people It loving them bigger than sometimes yourself
457. And I think it's just really, truly,
458. it's how anybody could ever say that this big old heart of love would not be
459. welcome.
460. They need it more than anybody.
461. but pride will not be taken out of
462. our culture
463. that's like saying
464. that you
465. could live without your heart
466. it's not going to happen
467. and you wouldn't have without us
468. without our community you wouldn't have the arts
469. I saw this wonderful clip recently
470. of Elizabeth Taylor and she said
471. you wouldn't have artists you wouldn't have
472. music you wouldn't have all
473. our beauty creams
474. that's right
475. parties party event planners you name it and country music artists like yourself well you know
476. gosh that was my only fear of coming out that i wouldn't get to do what i loved anymore because
477. i had spent decades trying to you know to to professionally hide it and maintain the biggest
478. what was the biggest surprise who were the biggest surprises or or moments that showed up in your
479. favor that showed that that supported you that lifted you up after you came out well i had some
480. great ones everybody from tim and fate to tricia to martina it's just just almost my a lot of my
481. constituents i think i think i added them up one day there's there's like 55 of them you know just
482. that were knew my journey were standing with me in that moment um and they've been coming out of
483. the woodworks for testified i love too it's been pretty cool um but gosh i love me some trisha
484. Yearwood. I watched the Super Bowl with her one year.
485. Oh, you did? That's amazing.
486. I was friends with her tour manager,
487. Donnie. So you and I
488. will have coffee. We'll talk about all this.
489. Well, Donnie's my friend, too. That's awesome.
490. Tell him I said hello.
491. We're getting close
492. to the end of the show, and I just
493. wanted to, real quick, I just wanted to say
494. that faith is woven throughout
495. your story, but so is the struggle to reconcile
496. faith and identity. How has
497. your understanding of faith evolve over the years?
498. How would you share that with our
499. listeners? What would you say
500. how has your faith evolved over the years?
501. One thing I've known,
502. even in the darkest moments, if you
503. look at how a mama
504. has a mess of puppies, how she takes
505. them by the back of the skin of their neck and
506. carries them from room to room, that's
507. how God has me. That's how God has you.
508. It never leaves you to know
509. that. I keep growing
510. every day. Well, we hope
511. that that's something we do every day.
512. If we're above ground, we should be able to grow.
513. Amen.
514. Gay men and hallelujah.
515. Gay men and hallelujah.
516. I want to thank you so much for joining us tonight on IMRU.
517. I had a whole litany of questions and things to ask you,
518. but I loved that fact that it was just us sitting here kind of having a conversation
519. and letting it free flow to wherever it went.
520. That's just a testament to who you are,
521. that you just put us all at ease and give us comfort and joy.
522. It's also my grandmother's gift of gab that she gave me.
523. Yes, thanks, Grandma.
524. Thanks, Gammie.
525. Yes, yes.
526. Now, I just want to say thanks again to our country music artist, author, raconteur, advocate, Ty Herndon.
527. That's you for joining us tonight to discuss your memoir, What Mattered Most.
528. And I wish you continued success with your book and whatever comes after that, which we'll be looking for.
529. Thank you so much.
530. more books, a movie, TV shows, cartoons, you name it.
531. Now, special thanks as well to your manager.
532. Zeke Stokes and to Christy Walker Watkins