IMRU - LGBT Issues

Follows the audio · click any line to jump

1. Hi, this is Lisa Gay Hamilton and you're listening to KPFK, 90.7 FM in Los Angeles and 98.7 FM
2. in Santa Barbara, the voice of mass dissent in Southern California.
3. All the colors of the rainbow
4. Good evening and welcome to IMRU, broadcasting out loud and out proud on KPFK 90.7 FM Los Angeles since 1974.
5. I'm your host and executive producer, Michael Taylor Gray.
6. Tonight, we're revisiting a special conversation from our archives with country music artist,
7. author, and LGBTQ plus advocate, Ty Herndon.
8. Ty's journey has touched many lives through his music and his willingness to share his
9. story of faith, recovery, self-acceptance, and living openly and honestly in the public eye.
10. Whether you're hearing this interview for the first time or joining us again,
11. I'm pleased to share it with you.
12. My guest is Ty Herndon, and this is IMRU.
13. June is Pride Month, and one of the things I love most about this time of year is that it reminds us there is no single LGBTQ plus story.
14. Some of us found acceptance early in life.
15. Others spent years or even decades finding the courage to be fully ourselves.
16. Some journeys are celebrated publicly.
17. Others happen quietly, one difficult step at a time.
18. Tonight's guest knows something about both.
19. For many people, Ty Herndon first entered their lives through his music.
20. Songs like What Mattered Most, Living in a Moment, and It Must Be Love helped establish
21. him as one of country music's most successful artists of the 1990s.
22. But as successful as his career is on the outside, there were chapters of his life that
23. remained hidden from public view for many years.
24. Like a lot of us, Ty has a story that's far more complicated than what people see on the surface.
25. In his new memoir, What Mattered Most, he's finally telling the story from beginning to now.
26. He writes candidly about addiction, mental health struggles, faith, recovery, heartbreak,
27. and the tremendous pressure of trying to protect a public career while hiding deeply personal parts of his life.
28. What struck me most about this book is that it's not really a story about fame.
29. It's a story about survival. It's about falling down, getting back up, and eventually finding the courage to stop running from yourself.
30. And I think that's a story a lot of people, a lot of us, whether they're LGBTQ plus or not, will recognize.
31. And tonight we'll also talk about the beautiful recording Testify the Love, featuring Michael Passans, founding member of Avalon and also featuring Avalon vocalist Melissa Green.
32. Ty Herndon, welcome to IMRU.
33. Thank you so much.
34. That was an amazing introduction.
35. It was beautiful.
36. Thank you.
37. Well, it's a testament to you.
38. We're testifying to Ty.
39. I'm having a little cup of tea.
40. I went to see a friend for Pride.
41. I went up to Atlanta to see 175 Gay Men's Chorus.
42. Oh, wow.
43. In an amphitheater, and they were doing the musical Belt and John.
44. I got my heart full, but I came back with a cold.
45. Well, yeah.
46. It's the gift that keeps on giving.
47. So you sitting here at my house You got the cough syrup and the napkins and a great conversation Yeah There you go You know I tell you my best friend from childhood from Ohio Ted Mayberry he listening right now and he just fanning out over you
48. He just got so excited when I told him that Ty Herndon was going to be on the show.
49. So you got a lot of fans.
50. Yeah.
51. Oh, man.
52. I would not be here today without the beautiful hearts and support of,
53. actually, I call them, really, they're my chosen family because they've supported me so long.
54. and you just mentioned Testify to Love.
55. It's just brought lesions of new fans on board.
56. And it's what's beautiful about that.
57. We'll get into that too when we talk about it.
58. But the individual stories that Melissa has now
59. and Michael, you know,
60. he said he just wanted a little bit of his ministry back,
61. but the universe gave him like 30 tabernacles.
62. Oh, yeah.
63. And I like Winona's version too.
64. It's just a song that really speaks to people, you know?
65. Michael got to meet her the other night.
66. It was great.
67. She's the country Elvis to me.
68. She is.
69. She's wonderful.
70. But this is about you tonight.
71. You know, and what brought you to me, to IMRU, to our listeners here on KPFK, just like with Brandy Clark, was our mutual friend, Del Shores.
72. Yes.
73. I just saw him and I probably hadn't seen him in 15 years.
74. Good friends just pick up just like we left it.
75. You know, and he when he posted about your appearance in Nashville, his fundraiser for the Dell Shorts Foundation, for his Writers Foundation.
76. Oh, my. I've not seen him smile that big.
77. And I can't tell you how long since the birth of his grandson.
78. You know, it's a cute story because we listen.
79. Michael and I went and he had texted us to sing Testify to Love.
80. And I had responded.
81. We would absolutely love to.
82. so the event's happening and it stops and listen michael are standing there and he said thanks
83. everybody for coming and i said uh dale did you not want us to sing he he says you never answered
84. my text i was like really you're standing right there and he and i went and looked and i had not
85. hit send oh no there's that part so he ran outside got everybody back in he goes we have a special
86. tree i was like we're here of course we're gonna sing what was beautiful about that moment is that
87. There was a rainbow outside.
88. That's the second time in my life that that's happened.
89. The first time was with Brian Ruby, an LGBTQ country artist.
90. We did a duet together and a double rainbow happened.
91. I said, well, son, that doesn't tell you that it's going to be a success.
92. I don't know what will.
93. I mean, that's a sign.
94. That's a sign.
95. It is.
96. It is.
97. It just, you know, represents so much love.
98. And for that rainbow to come out that day with the message of this,
99. I testify to love because, man, we, well, we'll just go ahead and talk about it.
100. We had no idea the vein we were hitting.
101. We just wanted to, I say we, my contemporary Christian album turns,
102. I think, 15 years old in August.
103. And we wanted to add three new songs to it.
104. So it was a perfect opportunity to say, hey, Michael Passes, let's cut this song.
105. Now, how did Melissa join you guys? I know her connection to Avalon, of course.
106. We've been friends for a long, long time. Actually, Melissa married Alex and I, not once but twice. A spiritual marriage and then the big one for everybody.
107. Oh, that's nice.
108. Yeah.
109. That's why you get all the rainbows.
110. Hey, man, I'll take that.
111. It's all yours.
112. Excuse me.
113. Well, that's wonderful.
114. I met Michael through mutual friends not long after he was asked to leave Avalon because he was gay.
115. And when you hear his story, I'm like...
116. I know the feeling.
117. The same thing happened to me in my Baptist church years ago.
118. So Michael and I, we could swap stories on that one.
119. My grandmother chartered the church we grew up in.
120. So, you know, she...
121. But nobody going to kick me out but what she did say is she said if you got a thousand beautiful hearts on this table right here you see a thousand beautiful hearts There no race color religion sex A thousand beautiful hearts that God made So there always a seat in this church for everyone
122. And so I was blessed.
123. I didn't have to deconstruct anything.
124. You know what I say to that?
125. Gay men.
126. Gay men.
127. Gay men.
128. But, man, there are just, I love that.
129. There are just thousands of deconstructed evangelicals out there that, for some reason, it landed right into their spirit.
130. And I said, that little song probably was the song that gave them a little bit of encouragement when they were 14, 15, knowing his big secret about themselves.
131. And hearing a song from a huge group, Avalon, which most of them could only have three records.
132. It was Point of Grace, Avalon, and maybe Michael.
133. Oh, I just lost his name.
134. So three albums.
135. Yeah.
136. Well, when you see the news every day, just the age that we live in right now, it's like the joy is being sucked out of the air.
137. You know?
138. And the first time I saw that clip, when I saw Del's posting and saw you guys singing, and the joy, just the sheer joy that you are.
139. putting out there and I immediately felt lighter. I felt, I smiled,
140. I was happy. I was like, this is, that's the remedy I needed.
141. And that's, I think people are seeking that in droves.
142. Well, I've had a lot of people say that it gave them,
143. it gave them, it gave them the courage and license to speak up. Yes.
144. About their own stories and get,
145. and they also said we get to love this song again because it meant so much to
146. Speaking of that, speaking of that, Mr. Ty Herndon, you've spent more than 30 years sharing your life through your music.
147. But, you know, you've said that this memoir, What Mattered Most, gave you the opportunity to finally tell your whole truth.
148. Now, what was the moment when you realized you were ready to put everything on page and write this memoir?
149. I'm still waiting for that moment.
150. It's on its way.
151. I think the moment happens throughout the book.
152. I mean, there were – when David approached me, I had for years thought about and spoke with people about doing a book about my journey.
153. But I guess I am the – I like to say I'm spiritual, but I'm also a God guy.
154. What do you mean by that?
155. I know I just said the spiritual part.
156. What do you mean by the God guy?
157. It means that the bad Christians have ruined the good word Christians.
158. so i just i'm making it your own tie yeah i avoid i avoid that and just say here's what i say because
159. it gets taught so many kids out there you are the church that's right no one no one can kick you out
160. of your church my grandmother taught me that she goes you get to build your your foundation and
161. your and your um and your congregation and i and i always say to the kids i say and i'd like to be a
162. charter member and build your church.
163. That church can be in a honky tonk.
164. It can be in a drag bar.
165. It can be anywhere.
166. Michael and I went out saying testify to love for a dear friend of ours.
167. She has a once a month gospel night at a huge gay bar here in Nashville.
168. And Michael, who's been on the world stages, I said, I bet you never thought that would happen.
169. Hey, I did Dolly Parton drag upstairs at JR's in Dallas.
170. when I was doing Southern Baptist Sissies
171. with Del Shores and Leslie Jordan
172. and way back when.
173. So that was my church Doing 9 to 5 in Dolly Parton Drag It goes back to those hearts on that table God does not make mistakes Yes And it a beautiful thing I think God
174. yes,
175. I thank God for the encouragement of some beautiful souls in my own family.
176. That also gave me the courage circling back to answer your question.
177. Yeah.
178. Knowing,
179. I don't think that I went into this prepared to talk about some of the things I talked about.
180. Yeah.
181. I mean,
182. in the book,
183. in the book.
184. So as you were writing it,
185. just things just started to unfold and you just felt more,
186. uh,
187. well,
188. God's God sent me,
189. uh,
190. sent me David,
191. sent me my husband and David Ritz.
192. Uh,
193. David is a dear friend now.
194. He's,
195. he's,
196. I think he's written over 151 books,
197. but huge book for Aretha Franklin.
198. Yeah.
199. And Willie Nelson,
200. the Rolling Stones and the list goes on and on.
201. And so working with him conversation to conversation,
202. um,
203. I really truly had no idea of the timeline of my own life.
204. It was just so jumbled up.
205. So David goes, well, that's easy.
206. He calls me, hon.
207. He goes, hon, that's easy.
208. He said, you've been telling your story from the time you sang in front of your grandmother's radio show.
209. Go back and listen to all of your albums.
210. He goes, there's your timeline.
211. He goes, you've been screaming the truth all along.
212. Pronouns may have been different.
213. He goes, but that that's the well we're going to run from. And it blew my mind.
214. He was it was so true. So, but man, I wasn't prepared to really walk through details of a horrific, abusive arrest.
215. And all the feelings that went around it, that that I got myself in a place that I wasn't going to be believed.
216. So just be quiet.
217. You know, shut up and sing, as the Dixie Chicks were told.
218. Oh.
219. Yeah.
220. I look at Natalie Main going, I'm not going to say that to her.
221. Yeah.
222. I'm not ready to make nice.
223. She could kick my butt.
224. Exactly.
225. Not ready to make nice.
226. Exactly.
227. Well, you know, that was my joke about that is that the Dixie Chicks and Ty Herndon almost single-handedly took down Nashville Sony.
228. Thank you.
229. And, you know, you've got to shake things up.
230. But you know what?
231. Winners, what I call the spirit in me that has always been the winner is the gift that God gave me.
232. My music has always been the truth.
233. Oh, yes.
234. My music and my gift has not been to any treatment centers.
235. It didn't have mental health issues.
236. It was the one thing about me that was the best thing about me.
237. and I can tell you this
238. after many years
239. that it still remains
240. in the front seat
241. sitting right next to me
242. the music will never stop
243. me and I'm going to do it like Loretta
244. I'm going to retire
245. probably retire and die on that tour bus
246. but here's the deal
247. music, love and God have saved me
248. more times every day
249. but more times than I can tell you.
250. And this book has been described as still Magnolias meets the Kardashians.
251. And it's kind of dead on with that because it's,
252. that's a little dangerous.
253. Drink your juice,
254. Shelby.
255. Drink your juice,
256. Kim.
257. The first thing you read in this book,
258. chapter one is as much as I want you to love me and like me,
259. it may not happen.
260. Well,
261. you know,
262. I'm just thrilled.
263. Really.
264. It's such a blessing.
265. So I'm honored.
266. I'm honored to have you here and that you're taking this time with us, with our listeners here at KPFK on IMRU.
267. Thank you.
268. Yeah, we're going to take one little 20-second break.
269. We're going to replay a little bit of our bluegrass version of our IMRU theme song, which we created just for you, Ty Herndon.
270. I love that.
271. I heard it.
272. We'll be back with more of you after this.
273. Absolutely.
274. like the clout track.
275. Every color, every name, every story, every flame.
276. I love it.
277. Who's that singer?
278. That's a great singer.
279. Oh, honey.
280. We'll talk about that later, but it needs to be you.
281. We need to have a Ty Herndon, IMRU theme song, bluegrass version.
282. Yes.
283. Yes.
284. Just say yes.
285. I'll do it.
286. My producer and I can do it.
287. We'll do that in half a day and get it to you the next day.
288. My heart is Peter Pattern right now.
289. Oh, my Lord.
290. Okay.
291. So you say it, you build it, it will come.
292. That's right.
293. If you do it.
294. Right.
295. I do believe that.
296. We're back here with Ty Herndon, the legendary country singer, raconteur, storyteller.
297. Ty, you are, let me tell you, for much of your career, you were navigating a tremendous
298. success professionally while privately carrying this burden that we've been talking about,
299. hiding your sexuality in a very traditional industry.
300. Now, looking back now, what was that emotional cost of living two lives at the same time?
301. When you look back on that, what was that like for you?
302. Well, a lot of that has come to life in just doing these interviews and all that's going on with Michael and Melissa and I.
303. And Michael and I agreed, you know, for anyone to say, it's a choice.
304. Look, I have that multiple choice test.
305. It's not true.
306. That could be the one joke in a comedy store.
307. Right.
308. Because, listen, Mr. Michael Passes and I can tell you,
309. lost count of the times we were on our face at the church, at home, in our bedrooms,
310. asking God to take this away because I didn't want it.
311. It's like, this doesn't fit in with a pig farmer from Alabama.
312. I want to, you know, I want to, I don't, how come I have to be this different?
313. And it did not fit in the blueprint of my life, but also didn't have all the beautiful
314. information that we have today.
315. That's right.
316. But I also had a family that loved me no matter what.
317. So, um, um, you had that support at home?
318. Yes, absolutely.
319. Yeah.
320. You're so fortunate.
321. That's not everybody's story in our community.
322. And you know that.
323. Well, I mean, I did get, I did get married twice.
324. just to prove it not true.
325. So they're probably scratching their heads the whole time.
326. So did Elton John.
327. Hello.
328. Yes.
329. When is your wife going to have hairy legs?
330. Why don't you just come on and do it?
331. Now, wait a minute.
332. That could happen today.
333. So there you go.
334. That's right.
335. Ladies, if you have hairy legs, I love you, and I love your hairy legs.
336. Go to France Go to France But that why this book is so beautiful I jumping back and forth because it also connected Well life isn necessarily linear
337. Yeah, man.
338. But it's, you know, it is.
339. The way David wrote my story, it's so full of color.
340. My own mother said when she read it, she goes, son, there were moments that I knew.
341. I kind of knew about what happened, but I didn't really want to know everything.
342. She said, but all I ever wanted to do was hug you in that moment.
343. She goes, and in these pages, I got to do that.
344. So it was just the things that people, the little stories, every part of the book connects people in such a different way.
345. And like my aunt, she loved the chapter Shampoo Boy because I talked about Tammy Wynette in it.
346. And that story is so beautiful.
347. It's Tammy Wynette, that's right.
348. yeah so it connects on many levels and um do you stand by your man
349. well i am now i don't think i knew how before but you're learning yeah this has a lot of power of
350. standing right there so oh man but you know it's hard to believe that it's only been it was 12 years
351. ago that you became the first major male country artist to come out publicly as gay that's a lot
352. pressure yeah you think that's a historic milestone now but now at the time it was a deeply personal
353. decision obviously now yeah what and i think i and i'm seeing because i look to country i grew up in
354. country music that's all my parents listened to my mom had like three or four albums that i can
355. remember and some eight tracks and one was merle haggard eight track and i remember her charlie
356. pride album you know um but all this you know the radio in the car was always tuned to country music
357. radio and so uh and i still love it to this day it's the foundation of my musical you know um
358. dna and um but i love that but i'm gonna use that by the way and i didn't i didn't see
359. i didn't see us represented i don't see other than charlie pride i really never saw any other
360. black artists represented and over the last 10 years i'd say uh roughly it's really starting
361. to open up when I see country music opening up and embracing artists of color.
362. And now there's this whole Latin country music movement that's really starting to take off.
363. And I just see so much happening within country music that's embracing all walks of life,
364. including now those of us within the career community.
365. And there you were, you know, leading the charge, you know, it's like the Olympian carrying
366. the flag into the stadium.
367. Now, I got to tell you, I didn't think I'd be leading the church for two gay guys and one affirming woman to sit at the number one position.
368. And I mean, CeCe Wyden had been up there forever.
369. I was like, I never that wasn't on my on my bucket list.
370. I love Christian music. I grew up with it.
371. You know, worship songs. I grew up with all that.
372. And I've never had to let any of that go, because if you if you've met me, you know, I won't.
373. number one, but it's the foundation of who I am.
374. And no one's going to tell me what songs I can worship to,
375. how I'm going to worship.
376. And especially where I'm at today, this is my pulpit.
377. I'm not going to let you tell somebody that they're less than.
378. I needed you back.
379. I needed you at the Baptist temple when I was 17.
380. There you go.
381. I needed you there to help back me up.
382. I had a preacher shame me in chapter two,
383. tent revival.
384. And it's just,
385. I was,
386. I was 10 and preaching and singing breaking the house down At 10 years old Yes I was called to preach at 10 Oh wow And I might have been just a little flamboyant
387. I don't know.
388. People have said.
389. I'm not one to judge.
390. I learned how to be Butch over the years.
391. I learned how to be Butch.
392. Yes, I found my manliness.
393. When you say it like Leslie Jordan,
394. it's hard to get a really good Butch.
395. if you say a lot
396. Leslie Jordan is never going to be Bush
397. he said he fell out of his mom
398. he fell out of his mom right in a pair of high heels
399. I love that man I miss him so much
400. oh I do too
401. he was a joy to know and a joy to love
402. nobody was more
403. surprised at his
404. success and joyed about
405. and just filled with joy about it than he was
406. as I always tell people don't mess with that
407. little firecracker you don't want to take him out
408. oh no no we were doing something about the
409. Sissy's at the Mac Theater in Dallas.
410. And somebody in the audience started getting a little chatty.
411. He stopped right in the middle of what he was saying.
412. He looked out.
413. He says, shut your pie hole, honey.
414. Mine's up here making money.
415. There you go.
416. And then he picked right up where he left off.
417. Yes, he did.
418. I love it.
419. Now, Ty, you know this is Pride Month, not new to you because you got your cold at Pride in Nashville.
420. That's right.
421. And here at IMRU, we've spent the last few weeks celebrating visibility, authenticity, and community.
422. Now, what does pride mean to you today compared with what it meant to you as a young man trying to find his place in the world?
423. Well, I mean, you know, I can honestly tell you I had no idea about prides.
424. I lived in a small box for a long time.
425. And my very first pride that I went to was in Dallas, Texas when I was living there.
426. And my whole life changed when I saw drag queens on stilts.
427. Oh, yes.
428. You've taken them in and then they're on stilts.
429. Ladies, y'all have the power.
430. You have the power of the room right now.
431. But what pride means to me today is the work we've done.
432. And it wasn't just me doing it by myself.
433. The great leaders that I've leaned on.
434. And then the kids that have learned strength and have found their power.
435. It's a proudest chosen family.
436. It's educating people.
437. It's loving them bigger than sometimes yourself.
438. And I think it's just really, truly, it's how anybody could ever say that this big old heart of love would not be welcome.
439. They need it more than anybody.
440. But pride will not be taken out of our culture.
441. That's like saying that you could live without your heart.
442. It's not going to happen.
443. Honey, and you wouldn't have without us, without our community.
444. You wouldn't have the arts.
445. I saw this wonderful clip recently of Elizabeth Taylor.
446. And she said, you wouldn't have artists.
447. You wouldn't have music.
448. You wouldn't have all.
449. And she listened, listened, on and on and on.
450. Our beauty creams.
451. That's right.
452. parties, party event planners, you name it,
453. and country music artists like yourself.
454. Well, you know, gosh, that was my only fear of coming out,
455. that I wouldn't get to do what I loved anymore
456. because I had spent decades trying to professionally hide it.
457. What was the biggest surprise?
458. Who were the biggest surprises or moments that showed up in your favor,
459. that supported you, that lifted you up?
460. after you came out I had some great ones I heard from Tim and Faith to Trisha to Martina It just almost a lot of my constituents I think I added them up one day
461. There's like 55 of them that knew my journey
462. and were standing with me in that moment.
463. And they've been coming out of the woodworks
464. for Testified Love too.
465. It's been pretty cool.
466. But gosh.
467. I love me some Tricia Yearwood.
468. I watched the Super Bowl with her one year.
469. Oh, you did?
470. That's amazing.
471. I was friends with her tour manager, Donnie.
472. So you and I will have coffee.
473. We'll talk about all this.
474. Well, Donnie's my friend too.
475. That's awesome.
476. Tell him I said hello.
477. Yes.
478. We're getting close to the end of the show.
479. And real quick, I just wanted to say that faith is woven throughout your story,
480. but so is the struggle to reconcile faith and identity.
481. How has your understanding of faith evolved over the years?
482. How would you share that with our listeners?
483. What would you say, how has your faith evolved over the years?
484. Thanks.
485. one thing I've known, even in the darkest moments, if you,
486. if you look at how a mama has a mess of puppies,
487. how she takes them by the back of their skin or their neck and carries them
488. from room to room. That's how God has me. That's how God has you.
489. It never, it never leaves you to know that, you know, I keep growing every day.
490. Well, we hope that that's something we do every day. If we're above ground,
491. we should be able to grow. Right. Amen. Yep.
492. Gay men and hallelujah. Gay men and hallelujah.
493. you've been listening to a special rebroadcast of my conversation with country music artist
494. author and lgbtq plus advocate ty herndon his memoir what mattered most provided us with the
495. heart of our conversation it's an honest reflection on the lessons he's learned of faith
496. self-acceptance resilience and the courage to live openly and honestly my thanks again to ty
497. for sharing that journey with us.
498. Thanks as well to my co-producer, Arnella Barbara,
499. and production director, Mark Maxwell,
500. for their continued commitment to our show.
501. Many thanks to all of you for listening
502. and supporting Community Powered Radio.
503. Up next, our Queer Community Calendar and This Way Out.
504. For IMRU, I'm Michael Taylor Gray.
505. And as I always like to say,
506. this is good night, but not goodbye.
507. Oh.
508. For as long as I shall live,
509. I will testify the love
510. I'll be a witness in the silences
511. When words are not enough
512. With every breath I take
513. I will give thanks to God above
514. For as long as I shall live
515. I will testify the love
516. Hello, my beautiful people.
517. I'm Michael Taylor Gray,
518. and welcome once again to our queer community calendar,
519. keeping our LGBTQIA2S plus family connected, celebrated, informed,
520. and fabulously produced by Miss Moonshine herself, Arnella Barbara.
521. On Tuesday, July 7th, 7.30 p.m., Disco Bingo at Orbar, West Hollywood,
522. because losing at bingo is still winning if your outfit gets applause.
523. Wednesday, July 8th, 7.30 p.m., the mismatched game at the Los Angeles LGBT Center,
524. Brenberg Theater, Hollywood.
525. Come for the laughs, stay because someone in the audience is definitely being a little extra.
526. Thursday, July 9th.
527. 7 p.m. Queer Volleyball Open Gym at the Los Angeles LGBT Center Village at Ed Gould Plaza.
528. Remember, we're here to serve.
529. And yes, we're still talking about volleyball.
530. Friday, July 10th.
531. 8 p.m. Drag Cabaret Night at Ackbar Silver Lake.
532. If your mascara survives the show, you probably weren't cheering loud enough.
533. Saturday, July 11th.
534. 11 a.m. LGBTQ Plus Community Hiking Group at Griffith Park.
535. Hydrate, stretch, and remember, the only acceptable dramaturge.