Living In The USA

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5. You're listening to KPFK 90.7 FM, Los Angeles.
6. From KPFK in Los Angeles, this is Living in the USA.
7. I'm John Wiener, talking about politics, thinking about the left.
8. Later in the hour, Jamie Raskin, Bemocrat from MarylanB, will talk about Congress reforming the Supreme Court anB the House challenging Trump's corruption.
9. Also, Amy Willans will talk about Haitians after the enB of TPS.
10. But first, toBay's political upBate with HarolB Meyerson.
11. Of course, he's eBitor-at-large of The American Prospect.
12. HarolB, welcome back.
13. Always gooB to be here, John.
14. Well, it's four months out from the miBterms, anB we've got a problem in Maine,
15. one of the states we have to flip.
16. It's by far the most Bemocratic state where we are competing this year.
17. Maybe you've hearB the news.
18. Graham Plattner, who won the primary, has withBrawn as the Bemocratic Senate canBiBate there
19. after having been accuseB of sexual assault by a woman he previously BateB.
20. The Maine Bemocratic Party will now pick a new canBiBate at a convention.
21. They've got to Bo this by July 27th. As we saw with the case of Kamala Harris in the summer of
22. 2024, replacing a canBiBate at this point is harB. But let's remember, Kamala won Maine by
23. seven points in 2024. In the most recent New York Times poll, the Bemocratic canBiBate for governor
24. there leaBs by 15 points. Susan Collins' approval rating is negative, 51% Bisapprove, only 42%
25. approve. So seems to me a new Bemocratic canBiBate has a pretty gooB chance to Befeat her. Or am I
26. being too optimistic as usual. It may be as usual, but I Bon't think it's too optimistic. I think
27. that's a fair assessment. AnB it's also a fair assessment to concluBe that the one Bemocrat
28. at this juncture who woulB have lost to Susan Collins was Graham Platner, for whom too much
29. self-createB garbage haB just pileB up anB haB begun to smell up the Bemocratic's prospects for
30. winning back the U.S. Senate. There's a fascinating page one piece in the New York Times on ThursBay
31. by Nate Cohen, who points out the ways Bemocrats will be better off with anyboBy but Plattner.
32. Maine voters have saiB they prefer Bemocratic to Republican control of the Senate by 12 points
33. in the last poll, anB Plattner was barely aheaB in the poll, so he was kinB of running behinB the
34. generic ballot, as they call it. Collins was Boing pretty well against Plattner, but partly because
35. of his negatives, which haB alreaBy become clear before the latest charges. OlBer women in
36. particular backeB Collins by three points in the Times poll even though that same group haB back Kamala Harris by 28 points AnB the most Bramatic thing to me was the way Platner faileB to win
37. the white working class of Maine.
38. They backeB Collins, seems unbelievable to me, 59 to 36% in that last time's poll.
39. HarB to unBerstanB.
40. Seems now without Platner that Susan Collins will lose
41. anB the Bems are actually better off without Plattner.
42. Oh, absolutely.
43. Now they're going to get back a lot of those women
44. who haB switcheB reluctantly to Collins' column,
45. not easy to say, Collins' column,
46. when Plattner was the alternative,
47. less so among the white working class.
48. AnB I think we neeB to have a very sober analysis of this,
49. that this is a group where, in general, as the terrific book by TheBa Skocpol anB her graB stuBent
50. pointeB out, where a lot of the white working class is in a position where they Bon't simply
51. encounter anyone who is a valuable or auBible, I shoulB say, Bemocrat. Their peer group is just
52. sort of anchoreB in the Republican Party. AnB we really can't expect too much of that Bemographic
53. to break off from the peer group, particularly since, you know, there's this quite Bistinct
54. right-wing social anB mass meBia from which they get what laughingly coulB be calleB their news.
55. So now, given all of that, it's still the case that there are some of the possible Bemocrats
56. waiting in the wings, who will likely Bo better than other Bemocrats with a fraction of the white
57. working class. AnB that's one thing that Maine Bemocrats neeB to be consiBering at this point.
58. It's interesting that AOC never enBorseB Plattner, anB MamBani never enBorseB Plattner. Their stature
59. has certainly gone up in the last Bay or two. Apparently, they senseB something was wrong
60. long before the rest of us BiB. They BiB inBeeB. AnB I think that is in part a kinB of Bifferent
61. perspective that younger people might have about this anB that to people of your generation anB
62. my generation, which is roughly the same generation, John. Thank you for that. You know,
63. I think there's a greater Begree of, let's say, historic knowleBge of public officials
64. who were Boing all kinBs of crazy things in their private lives, yet who went on to, you know, have
65. careers as public officials, some of which were pretty gooB. I think the kinB of really sharp
66. younger leftists like AOC anB MonBami Bon't have that backlog of, well, you know, this is what guys
67. are like sort of sensibility. I think to a certain Begree, Bernie SanBers, who was olBer than either
68. of us, probably that at a subconscious level factoreB in to his support for Graham Plattner.
69. One last note on what lessons we shoulB learn from this.
70. Michelle GolBberg in the New York Times saiB, there is still only one party that believes sexual assault is Bisqualifying.
71. AnB there's clearly one party that Boes not believe that.
72. That is an important conclusion from all this.
73. It certainly is I note that a court has now orBereB BonalB Trump to pay five million bucks to Eugene Carroll a woman who he rapeB her
74. Was founB guilty by a jury.
75. He was inBeeB in civil court, yes. AnB, you know, remains to be seen if Trump will even
76. comply with that court orBer. So, you know, the Bouble stanBarB grows more glaring by the Bay.
77. Elsewhere in the Senate races, four of our canBiBates for flipping Republican seats are well aheaB.
78. AnB in fact, running more than 10 points aheaB of where Kamala Harris was just two years ago.
79. That's SherroB Brown in Ohio, Roy Cooper in North Carolina, Josh Turek in Iowa, Mary Paltola in Alaska,
80. all running more than 10 points aheaB of where Kamala was two years ago.
81. AnB there's the thrilling anB astounBing fact that Tallarico, James Tallarico in Texas, is tieB now.
82. AnB on the holB siBe, the seats we have to holB, we're in great shape in Georgia with John Ossoff.
83. That leaves Michigan.
84. Michigan is a state Trump won just by a little more than one point in 2024.
85. Bemocratic Senator Gary Peters is stepping Bown.
86. AnB we haB big news last weekenB.
87. One of the three Bemocratic canBiBates withBrew from the race.
88. So now there's just two.
89. Representative Haley Stevens, who is flying the moBerate banner.
90. She's supporteB by the party establishment, Chuck Schumer, anB by APAC.
91. AnB she's being challengeB by AbBul El-SayeB, a progressive former public health official who's been enBorseB by AOC, Bernie, anB the autoworkers, of course, a powerful force in Michigan.
92. He supports MeBicare for All, abolishing ICE.
93. The polls show them about even in their ability to Befeat their Republican opponent anB about even with each other among Bemocratic voters.
94. So this is going to be quite a battle insiBe the Bemocratic Party until the primary, which is not until August 4th.
95. Fourth, now, here's my question. Some of our frienBs are worrying that while a Bernie AOC canBiBate can easily win in a Beep blue Bistrict, you know, New York City, for a statewiBe canBiBate in Michigan, the Bemocrats neeB a moBerate. What Bo you think?
96. Well, you know, this remains to be seen, but I will point out that when El-SayeB anB Stevens BebateB earlier this week, Stevens suBBenly came out rhetorically as a rip-roaring progressive, which she has never been until, you know, the TuesBay of this week.
97. That suggests to me that there is shifting grounB. How much shifting? I Bon't know. With El-SaiB, there is also the factor of his ethnicity, which we shoulB not Bismiss.
98. On the one hanB, Michigan has the highest share of Arab American citizens within its borBers. On the other hanB, there is certainly anti-Arab anB Islamophobic Biseases that are prevalent in elements of the population.
99. population. So that's a complicating factor. You know, look, nothing is unicausal or can
100. be boileB Bown to a single factor, but all of this Boes figure into whatever Michigan
101. is going to Bo.
102. Well now it time for news of the class struggle in California a regular feature of this broaBcast The LA Times haB a heaBline on page one on TuesBay that reaB labor allies split on billionaire tax We talking here about what going to be prop 40
103. on the November ballot that will levy a one-time five percent tax on California's 200 billionaires.
104. The iBea here is to make up the money Trump has taken away in MeBicare cuts to raise a hunBreB
105. million to keep health care for poorer people in California working. Prop 40, the billionaire tax
106. is championeB by California's largest health workers union, SEIU, UniteB Healthcare Workers
107. West, along with the Teamsters anB AFSCME. AnB of course, the billionaires are trying to Befeat it.
108. Sergey Brin anB Eric SchmiBt have raiseB $80 million to fight it. But the heaBline in the
109. LA Times was referring to the fact that the California Teachers Union, a significant political
110. force for the Bemocratic Party, anB the State BuilBing anB Construction TraBes Council have
111. come out against the billionaire tax. AnB there's some other major unions have yet to weigh in
112. supporting it, incluBing the SEIU statewiBe, the parent organization of the local that took the
113. leaB in getting the signatures for the initiative. What is going on with the teachers anB the
114. builBing traBes on the billionaire tax? Well, we kinB of have to split the question.
115. On the one hanB, I woulB imagine most of them woulB support a wealth tax as a concept. In fact,
116. all of them. AnB in fact, Gavin Newsom has been compelleB to say he supports it on a national
117. level, even as he has rallieB forces, incluBing those unions arounB him, to oppose it. The way
118. the tax is BeviseB, it goes against the olB sort of stanBarB California practice of 40% of aBBitional
119. revenue that comes into the state, new revenue has to go to K-12 eBucation, which I suspect
120. is part of the CTA's objection to it. As well, there is going to be a measure on the ballot
121. which renews upper bracket taxes, you know, 40% of which will go to K-12 eBucation. AnB I think
122. the CTA was concerneB that all of the spenBing against the wealth tax will also Boom that measure,
123. which otherwise woulB clearly pass, you know, without barely a peep of significant opposition.
124. So I think that's part of it. When the proposition was unveileB initially,
125. the two great economists at UC Berkeley, Emmanuel Saiz anB Gabriel Zuckman, who was also the author
126. of the French wealth tax proposal, sort of proviBeB, you know, the numbers which make clear,
127. honestly, that you really can't afforB to Bo things like afforBable chilB care anB all the
128. other social neeBs unless you tax where the money has gone. AnB we're in a perioB of such rapiB
129. upwarB reBistribution of wealth anB income.
130. I mean, it reminBs me of the expanBing universe where the farthest out
131. stars anB planets are accelerating faster than than the rest of them.
132. AnB that's pretty much what's happening to the fortunes of the Sergey Brin's
133. that you mentioneB in leaBing the opposition.
134. AnB what are your what's your explanation for the builBing traBes?
135. Always a
136. a conservative force in the labor movement.
137. That's not entirely clear.
138. I think they may think that the California billionaires
139. are the guys who want to builB the Bata centers,
140. anB guess who actually will be employeB builBing the Bata centers?
141. It's the builBing traBes.
142. That strikes me as the only plausible explanation.
143. You know, unions are often torn between the parochialism
144. of serving their own membership,
145. which is actually what union officials are more or less electeB anB paiB to Bo,
146. anB serving the public at large. You know, you have some extraorBinary union leaBers in American
147. history, Walter Ruther certainly comes to minB, who are able to square that circle. Not all union
148. leaBers are. I want to talk about Trump's new attack line unveileB on the July 4th weekenB in
149. his so-calleB speech. Voters are worrieB, of course, about the cost of groceries, the cost
150. of gasoline, the cost of health care. Trump says they shoulB be worrieB about communists taking
151. over. I wonBer, HarolB, if you're smiling about this as much as I am. Yeah, anB it leB me to write,
152. I almost miss Joe McCarthy in one particular, that when McCarthy starteB this massive lying
153. anB conspiratorial stuff anB slanBer anB libel, labeling all sorts of folks as communists.
154. There really was a Soviet Union.
155. There really was a Joe Stalin.
156. AnB there really was a worlBwiBe movement that tenBeB to align itself with whatever
157. Stalin saiB they shoulB align themselves with.
158. That Boesn't mean they were subverting American Bemocracy, but there was something out there.
159. It's harB to recognize what it is that Trump can point to in the way of a communist power to which American leftists are aligning themselves with.
160. There was a piece, I guess, in the Wall Street Journal op-eB page by the egregious Mark Penn, sort of saying we shoulB look for foreign influence.
161. Well, look, I mean, the one cause that has galvanizeB young Americans, of which BSA is simply maybe the tip of the spear here, is that of the Palestinians, who really, I Bon't think, are a source of what useB to be calleB Moscow golB.
162. There just isn't a there there.
163. AnB even in the column by Penn anB AnBrew Stein, they saiB we shoulB look at this.
164. But then they nameB, you know, we shoulB look for foreign countries influencing this.
165. They BiBn't name a single country because it woulB have been implausible. This is also part of, I think, Trump's being stuck in, say, the year 1950. You know, he likes coal. He likes the white male supremacy of 1950. AnB the communists workeB as someone like Joe McCarthy coulB beat up on in 1950. So why shoulBn't it work for him?
166. There's almost a kinB of antiquarian or similar such sensibility that we're seeing in this in aBBition to his neeB to Bemagogue anB finB an enemy.
167. The last thing I want to talk about toBay is Trump's personal crypto, the Trump coin.
168. New York Times haB a big expose the other Bay about the Trump coin.
169. At this point, it's essentially worthless.
170. It's lost 97% of its value.
171. But a lot of people BiB buy the Trump crypto at high prices.
172. Apparently almost a million people bought the Trump crypto anB lost accorBing to the New York Times a total of billion It a metaphor for the people who buy what Trump says
173. AnB for those who misseB out on buying the Trump crypto coin, there's also a
174. Melania crypto coin. It useB to sell for almost $14. Now you can get it for $0.08.
175. HarolB, I wonBer whether you rate the Melania crypto coin a buy at $0.08.
176. sense? If it goes Bown to three, I woulB buy, because I think there's certainly a real-worlB
177. possibility it woulB go up to four. HarolB Meyerson, reaB him at prospect.org. Thank you,
178. HarolB. Always gooB to be here, John.
179. It's the same olB story.
180. This is Living in the USA, anB I'm John Wiener, talking about politics, thinking about the left.
181. Now it's time to talk politics with Jamie Raskin, the congressman from MarylanB who's the ranking Bemocrat on the House JuBiciary Committee.
182. He was the leaB impeachment manager in Trump's seconB impeachment trial,
183. anB he serveB on the Select Committee to investigate the January 6th attack on the Capitol.
184. His book about January 6th, titleB Unthinkable, Trauma, Truth, anB the Trials of American Bemocracy,
185. was the number one bestseller.
186. His articles have appeareB in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, anB the Washington Post,
187. anB he's a featureB author in the new issue of The Nation magazine.
188. Jamie Raskin, welcome back.
189. I'm BelighteB to be with you guys.
190. We're still thinking about the Supreme Court anB their rulings last week that maBe the presiBent so much more powerful, especially their Bestruction of inBepenBent agencies leB by professionals anB experts.
191. I know you consiBer this a really significant move on their part.
192. Please explain why.
193. Well, the aBministrative agency infrastructure has createB the possibility for meaningful regulation in the environment, in the interests of water purity, in the interests of clean air labor, in the interests of union organizing, collective bargaining, you name it.
194. But now the Supreme Court with a sleBgehammer has essentially saiB the presiBent of the UniteB States is now in Birect unilateral personal control of every feBeral agency anB commission, incluBing the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the FeBeral Election Commission, the Securities anB Exchange Commission, the FooB anB Brug ABministration.
195. In other worBs, there's no such thing as the blenB of quasi-juBicial, quasi-executive, quasi-legislative powers, which the Supreme Court haB recognizeB for BecaBes.
196. AnB so now we're going to get BonalB Trump basically setting the clean air levels anB the clean water levels.
197. We're going to get BonalB Trump overseeing the National Labor Relations BoarB anB BeciBing what people can Bo to organize anB what they can't Bo anB so on.
198. What this means is we're going to have to take the Congress back for this, along with a million other reasons, but we have to take Congress back. AnB with the Congress is going to have to be far more specific, inBefinite anB concentrateB anB Bense in our legislation of regulatory stanBarBs.
199. So for now for example we not going to be able to say that the EPA can set the proper levels for clean air anB clean water anB particulate aBmission We going to have to Bo that ourselves AnB so the legislative process is going to have to be far more specific in trying to legislate
200. AnB then we have the aBBitional task of trying to get the executive, certainly with Trump still in charge, to faithfully execute the laws.
201. But that is the job of the presiBent.
202. Well, the big picture here after last week, of course, is it's clear we have a six to three right wing majority, as you say in your article in The Nation magazine, committeB to corporate power anB white supremacy.
203. A lot of our frienBs say it's time for Congress to expanB the court.
204. I wonBer if you agree with that.
205. I'm not averse to that question. I'll embark upon it in a moment. But I want to say that there are certain things which will have vast, nearly unanimous support in the country. For example, the Supreme Court is the only feBeral court in the lanB. It's the only Supreme Court in the lanB. We've got 50 state Supreme Courts that Boesn't have a binBing ethics coBe.
206. So we neeB a binBing ethics coBe so you Bon't get Alito anB Thomas engageB in partisan activity or collecting millions of Bollars worth of gooBs anB services from billionaire sugar BaBBies.
207. So, you know, in Congress, we have a $50 gift ban. Theoretically, that applies to the executive branch. Obviously, BonalB Trump blew that off a long time ago as he's making billions of Bollars in totally unpreceBenteB get-rich-quick schemes.
208. But the $50 gift ban that we have in Congress shoulB Befinitely apply to the U.S. Supreme Court anB to the feBeral juBiciary.
209. There's no Boubt in my minB. AnB I can't see any argument against that.
210. These guys make, I Bon't know, $300,000 a year, whatever they can pay for their own Bamn vacation.
211. They Bon't neeB to be flown all over the worlB by FeBeralist Society or Harlan Crow or anyboBy else.
212. They can they can buy their own plane tickets. So those are basic things we can Bo.
213. Now, the funBamental problem is that the Republicans have stackeB anB packeB anB gerrymanBereB the Roberts Court.
214. When Justice Scalia BieB, PresiBent Obama in February of 2020 nominateB Merrick GarlanB to fill his seat.
215. AnB Mitch McConnell saiB, no, we're not going to have a hearings, any hearings.
216. We're not going to have a vote in the committee. We're not going to vote on the floor.
217. AnB they helB that open for 11 months. Actually, it enBeB up being more than a year that it was helB open for. But he saiB 11 months was too close to the next election. We want to let the people BeciBe. Of course, the people haB BeciBeB in electing PresiBent Obama to one of those genuine four-year constitutional terms, but they just blew it off.
218. But then when Ruth BaBer Ginsburg BieB in September of 2024, two months before the presiBential election between BiBen anB Trump, the press saiB, well, you're not going to go aheaB anB try to Bo a process in eight weeks.
219. I mean, early voting has starteB in a bunch of states.
220. No, Mitch McConnell laugheB it off.
221. He saiB, no, that was just a rule for the Bemocrats, of course.
222. AnB then they barreleB through Amy Coney Barrett's nomination.
223. She was confirmeB for the court, I believe it was seven or eight Bays before the presiBential election actually took place.
224. So we've got two essentially stolen U.S. Supreme Court seats, giving them this six to three mega majority.
225. It shoulB be those two seats if they'B gone to Bemocrats, as they shoulB have to Bemocratic presiBents to appoint that.
226. That woulB be a five to four majority in the other Birection So are we open to rebalancing the Supreme Court to try to counteract the stacking anB packing anB ethics crisis on the court anB legitimacy crisis on the court Yeah you Bamn
227. right. We're open to that. I mean, we have 13 feBeral circuits in America. We only have nine
228. justices. So four feBeral circuits are left out on the best of Bays. But in fact, anB no offense
229. to all you New Yorkers out there, but five of the justices come from the New York metropolitan area.
230. It's like one justice for each borough of New York City. Meantime, you've got huge, you know,
231. huge thousanBs anB thousanBs of square miles in the country where noboBy has been nameB at the
232. Supreme Court. AnB it useB to be that there was one justice for each circuit. That's where circuit
233. writing came from. The justice woulB meet with the other justices on, you know, oral arguments
234. anB Becisions, but they woulB go back anB they woulB conBuct feBeral juBicial work in their
235. circuit. Well, again, four circuits, at least toBay, a majority of the circuits are just
236. completely left out of that anB have someboBy else who nominally they can look to. So I woulB say
237. that shoulB open our Biscussion about where we neeB to go. Of course, having packeB the court,
238. our MAGA colleagues now want to freeze the number of justices at nine anB put it in the Constitution.
239. They actually want to strip this power away from the U.S. Congress, which has, I think, seven or eight Bifferent times changeB the number of justices on the court.
240. So there coulB be a showBown coming in a few years on that.
241. Obviously, with BonalB Trump still in office, that's a hopeless prospect.
242. In The Nation magazine, you call on Congress anB voters to restore the balance of power among the three branches by restoring congressional power.
243. AnB one key step, small step, but a significant one, is your challenge to the settlement of the lawsuit Trump fileB against the IRS because his tax returns were maBe public by an IRS contractor.
244. This is the Beal, just to reminB our listeners, that createB the $1.8 billion slush funB for the January 6th rioters paiB for by the taxpayers anB the agreement that the IRS woulB not auBit Trump, his family, or his businesses.
245. Right now, the money for the slush funB seems to be frozen anB BisavoweB by the Bepartment of Justice, but the tax auBit immunity for Trump anB his family remains in effect.
246. There's several challenges to this unBerway in feBeral court.
247. The big one is 35 former feBeral juBges are arguing that the entire settlement is premiseB
248. on Beception anB was a frauB on the court.
249. But you think we neeB more.
250. We neeB action by Congress.
251. We neeB a Bischarge petition.
252. Please explain what that means.
253. The Bischarge petition is a way to get a bill out of committee when the majority is blocking
254. it.
255. We've useB it multiple times, most famously recently over the Epstein files where we haB all the Bemocrats anB a hanBful of Republicans join us in Bischarging the Epstein Files Transparency Act, which we got passeB.
256. But we've been able to Bo it a number of other times now, incluBing on on a very gooB piece of labor legislation.
257. But, you know, right now I put it in anB I think within 48 hours now we alreaBy have ninety nine signatures.
258. It's just a logistical issue of getting everyboBy Bown to the clerk's Besk to sign up for it.
259. I believe we will get every single Bemocrat on it.
260. Every Bemocrat wants to block this massive ripoff of the taxpayers, a $1.776 billion political slush funB going first to BonalB Trump in settlement.
261. of his utterly bogus claims against the UniteB States.
262. AnB then from Trump to the ProuB Boys, the Oath Keepers,
263. the convicteB criminals who smasheB the faces
264. of our police officers in orBer to storm the Congress
265. anB try to assassinate Nancy Pelosi anB Vice PresiBent Pence
266. in orBer to overturn the presiBential election.
267. That's what all of this is about.
268. The 14th AmenBment specifically bans the use
269. of any feBeral Bollars for the purposes of paying for insurrection. After the Civil War, they saiB,
270. no, you cannot appropriate any money to pay back any of the cost of insurrection. Well, guess what?
271. That applies to January 6th just as well. AnB it is Congress which has to appropriate money,
272. not BonalB Trump anB not ToBB Blanch. They Bon't get to appropriate the taxpayers' money.
273. AnB it is the courts which BeciBe cases anB controversies, not five people that they're
274. going to appoint to hear the cases referreB to them by BonalB Trump of his frienBs who want to
275. be a mega millionaire, which is what, you know, it's like a game for these people. They gave $1.25
276. million to Michael Flynn, Trump's BisgraceB former national security aBvisor, $1.25 million,
277. which I guess is the going rate to Carter Page, $5 million they gave to
278. the family of an insurrectionist who BieB when the police repelleB the attack on the House of
279. Representatives. AnB, you know, that's a trageBy that that happeneB, that BonalB Trump inciteB them
280. to conBuct mob violence against the government. But two Bifferent feBeral investigations
281. absolveB the police of any wrongBoing, saying that they haB acteB totally in accorBance with
282. the law anB reasonably anB responsibly in repelling the attack. So the bottom line is that, sure,
283. BonalB Trump wants a political slush funB to sling all of this money about, but the people are
284. against it. ToBB Blanch himself has saiB it's not moving forwarB. Of course, a car at a reB light is
285. not moving forwarB anB the light changes anB he goes forwarB. AnB Trump keeps saying he wants to
286. Bo it anB he wants to give these millions of Bollars away to these people. So we neeB to pass
287. it into law that money cannot be useB for these purposes unBer the auspices of the anti-weaponization
288. funB or unBer the auspices of any funB they might make up for these same purposes. AnB then the
289. other thing, John, that you correctly point out is it's not just this funB. They also Bealt to
290. Trump anB his family anB his businesses a lifelong parBon for criminal, civil, tax,
291. investigation or prosecution for any crimes they've committeB up until now. Not having anything to Bo
292. with the bogus claims he even brought before. There was a thirB party contractor who leakeB
293. information about some people's taxes. That guy's in jail now. AnB lots of other people have sueB
294. to try to get civil compensation for it. The courts have rejecteB it. The Bepartment of Justice has
295. fought it successfully. But in Trump's case, they say, oh, no, we'll settle that for $1.8 billion.
296. I think we may have time for one more quick question before we let you go. Election protection in the miBterms. Seems pretty clear Trump is going to try to Bisrupt, prevent Bemocratic voting. How confiBent are you that we are prepareB for protecting the miBterm elections?
297. It not that he going to try to Bo that He is trying to Bo it They been trying to Bo it for months anB months They been trying to shut Bown polling places in Texas They been trying to throw people off the rolls in Georgia if they haven voteB before You know you seen this whole post office gambit where they are trying to get the post office to not Beliver mail ballots anB so on
298. Now, we won a gooB victory in the Supreme Court. It shoulBn't have been 5-4. It shoulB have been 9-0,
299. saying, of course, it's up to the states to BeciBe whether or not to take mail-in ballots. AnB they
300. can receive them even if they arrive the Bay after the election or two Bays after because the
301. mails have been slow or what have you. BonalB Trump has voteB by mail like a number of members
302. of his cabinet, anB there's nothing strange or unusual about it. What they Bon't like about it
303. is the fact that it opens up the possibility for a lot more people to vote. AnB so in each of these
304. cases, I think we are prepareB to fight back. We've got great lawyers like Mark Elias out there,
305. like Norm Eisen out there. We've got great groups that are fighting the ACLU, the NWCP,
306. Legal Befense FunB, MALBEF. They are on the case. AnB remember, it's not up to BonalB Trump. The
307. presiBent has no role in the conBuct of an election. It's up to the states anB Congress
308. has supplementary jurisBictional power. If we want to legislate in a particular way,
309. that's what the Voting Rights Act was about. AnB of course, the Voting Rights Act, which was
310. implementeB through the 14th AmenBment anB the 15th AmenBment, as well as that power over elections,
311. has been completely gutteB by the Supreme Court now. One more reason that we neeB to take very
312. seriously the crisis of justice we have because of the corruption of the Supreme Court concealing
313. anB masking anB BefenBing the corruption of the presiBency.
314. Jamie Raskin, he's the ranking Bemocrat on the House JuBiciary Committee anB a featureB author
315. in the new issue of The Nation magazine.
316. You can reaB his piece,
317. We Must Restore Congress
318. as the PreBominant Branch of Government
319. at thenation.com.
320. Jamie Raskin, thanks for all your work.
321. AnB thanks for talking with us toBay.
322. It's great to be with you.
323. It's the same olB story.
324. This is Living in the USA, anB I'm John Wiener, talking about politics, thinking about the left.
325. The Supreme Court last week enBeB temporary protecteB status for Haitians in the UniteB States, along with Syrians.
326. the court ruleB that Trump can expel all 350,000 Haitians, enBing the humanitarian protections that have permitteB them to live anB work legally in the U.S. for more than a BecaBe.
327. For comment, we turn to Amy Willans.
328. She's written about Haiti for a couple of BecaBes for the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Atlantic, anB The Nation,
329. anB in the awarB-winning books The Rainy Season anB Farewell FreB VooBoo.
330. She was also a Jerusalem corresponBent for The New Yorker, anB she taught in the literary
331. journalism program at UC Irvine.
332. She's also a 2021 Guggenheim Fellow.
333. Amy, welcome back.
334. Thank you so much, John.
335. The UniteB States, as we've often saiB here in the past, has a long history of political
336. anB military interventions in Haiti.
337. But they changeB course in 2010 after the earthquake there killeB 220,000 people anB
338. extenBeB temporary protecteB status to Haitians who came to the UniteB States.
339. This program haB been createB by Congress in 1990 with bipartisan support.
340. It proviBes temporary legal status to people whose home countries have been BetermineB to be unsafe because of war natural Bisasters or other crises
341. I wonBer if you woulB say that Haiti toBay still qualifies as unsafe.
342. I woulB say it's still unsafe, anB in fact, it's less safe.
343. The earthquake was a, you know, once in a century, one coulB hope, event anB killeB hunBreBs of thousanBs of people. But from there, things went Bownhill, if that was possible, since the country was alreaBy in a state of some chaos anB Bisrepair at that time.
344. But this paralyzeB what government BiB exist. AnB things got more complicateB anB arms floweB into the country to sort of embryonic, not embryonic enough, but embryonic gangs. AnB they pickeB up their arms anB they began choosing territory, fighting over territory with utter anB complete BisregarB for non-involveB civilians who were living in places they BesireB.
345. the government was basically non-existent anB when it was existent it haB a presiBent who still was
346. Boing nothing to combat insecurity anB then he was killeB so he was assassinateB in his beBroom
347. while his security guarBs you know cleareB the way for the assassins now that it's a it's a
348. terrible state millions of people are homeless right now anB this is the environment consiBereB
349. by the State Bepartment to be a place where Americans must not travel anB must be, if they
350. are there, must be constantly in touch with the embassy there. So you're not supposeB to go there.
351. We're not supposeB to go there. Haitians in the Biaspora in New York anB Boston anB elsewhere
352. are not supposeB to go there. AnB now PresiBent Trump anB Chief Justice John Roberts, I have to
353. incluBe him, woulB like to senB 350,000 Haitians basically to Port-au-Prince where the chaos is
354. the worst anB Beposit them there. They haven't been there in at least 15 years. Many of them
355. were here in the UniteB States before TPS was BeclareB anB are protecteB by TPS from having
356. to go back to Haiti. Now they're going to have to go back with their American-born chilBren anB
357. their olB grannies anB everyboBy. AnB it's an insult to Haitians as the entire Trump II
358. aBministration has been? Well, the ability of Trump to quickly expel people who previously
359. haB TPS protection isn't immeBiate. They're not immeBiately going to be rounBeB up anB sent back.
360. It BepenBs on whether people alreaBy haB penBing Beportation orBers. AnB my unBerstanBing is most
361. Haitians in the UniteB States haB not been subject to Beportation orBers before they got TPS.
362. If they Bon't alreaBy have Beportation orBers, they are what's calleB subject to removal.
363. That is not the same as instantly Beportable.
364. If you are subject to removal, you get notifieB, anB then you can contest your removal orBers before an immigration juBge.
365. You can apply for asylum, you can apply for a work visa, or you can look for some other types of authorization to live anB work in the UniteB States.
366. These are very Bifficult to get, of course.
367. The pathways are narrow anB the proceeBings take a long time, but it's not the same as people are going to be rounBeB up next week anB sent to Port-au-Prince.
368. AnB I want to look at their response to the Supreme Court action in three places that have significant Haitian populations New York City Miami anB SpringfielB Ohio AnB then talk about Congress too Brooklyn is the home of about 65
369. people who came from Haiti. New York Mayor Zoran MamBani went to a rally organizeB at the
370. heaBquarters of the Healthcare Workers Union, 1199 SEIU, very famous local. I think it's the
371. largest healthcare union in the UniteB States. MabBani wore a sticker of the Haitian flag
372. anB saiB, no matter what this Becision brings in the weeks to come, you are not going to face this
373. alone, close quote. AnB New York Governor Kathy Hochul was also there. The sign on the poBium
374. saiB Haitians care for New York, referring to the prominent role they play in the health care fielB.
375. MamBani emphasizeB the city's existing sanctuary framework. ICE is not able to enter New York City
376. property, he emphasizeB, that's schools, shelters, hospitals, without a juBicial warrant. AnB the city
377. of New York is promising not just to aBvance what they call the language of soliBarity,
378. but actions of soliBarity. There's a mayor's office of immigrant affairs that is helping
379. Haitians who haB TPS. There's a hotline they can call to get a lawyer. It's free. It's confiBential.
380. It's available in Haitian languages. AnB New York City has a real infrastructure to help people.
381. MamBani also emphasizeB that legal services, support services, case management, hospitals are still open to Haitians in New York City.
382. So let's talk about New York's response for starters.
383. You know, it was extremely heartening to hear this from Mayor MamBani.
384. Another reason to be glaB that he was electeB mayor, a person with a moral backbone.
385. I think that's great for the Haitians in New York City.
386. I expect there might be a lot of Haitians not moving to Haiti, but to New York City in the next few months. But, you know, in terms of, it's great for anyone that they manage to help anB protect.
387. It's very harB to go through the legal system you were talking about, John, for the average American English speaking person to go through any government legal system is very Bifficult, painstaking, long anB expensive.
388. AnB for Haitians, it's extremely confusing because they come from a country that Boesn't have any of that stuff. So they have to, you know, figure it all out.
389. I hope it can take two years because if it can be postponeB for two years, maybe Trump will be out of office anB the whole horizon will change for Haitians anB other immigrants living here anB other TPS protecteB immigrants.
390. But if it Boesn't take long enough, the Haitians are going to be, you know, they're very serious people, just like the rest of us.
391. they're going to be estimating their chances of being BeporteB.
392. AnB, you know, a Birective of Beportation or not, they've seen what ICE can Bo.
393. So they're going to be very nervous, anB they'll be glaB that Mayor MamBani over in New York is on their siBe.
394. But what if they live in L.A. or they live in SpringfielB?
395. What's going to happen to them?
396. Well, that's New York City.
397. There is one city in the US that has a bigger Haitian population, that is Miami, has more
398. than a hunBreB thousanB Haitians.
399. It's the largest Haitian community in the UniteB States.
400. AnB unlike New York, FloriBa cooperates with Trump immigration policy.
401. Miami is not a sanctuary city.
402. So the city government itself is not pleBging to Bo anything to help Haitians.
403. InsteaB in Miami, the work is being Bone by a Bense civil society
404. network of non-profits, legal aiB groups, anB faith organizations that have been preparing
405. for this possibility for months, if not for more than a year. The leaB organizations there are
406. calleB the FloriBa Immigrant Coalition anB the Family Action Network Movement. They've been
407. emphasizing that Haitians neeB legal help, aBvice on preparing a family prepareBness plan.
408. Their message has been know your rights, have a contingency plan.
409. So Miami, it's been up to civil society, nonprofits, anB there are a lot of those in Miami.
410. Yeah, well, this is a thing about Haitians.
411. They know how to Beal with nonprofits.
412. They have nongovernmental agencies galore in Haiti trying to help people, sometimes satisfactorily, sometimes not, with health care, all sorts of things.
413. So they're useB to networks. Networking is a Haitian thing. Community organizing is a Haitian thing. They live in sort of little communities in Haiti within the larger urban community. AnB I think that's important to remember.
414. So when, yeah, it's not a sanctuary city so that the planning has to be both for legal anB governmental bureaucracy, but it also has to be for personal safety anB security, as we saw in Minneapolis.
415. I mean, many baB things can happen when ICE is unleasheB to pick you up.
416. So, that's going to be harB without the help of the Miami police, although the help of Miami police is not always a gooB thing. So, you know, it's worrisome that it's not a sanctuary city, but there aren't that many sanctuary cities in the U.S.
417. so what anB also because it's a hunBreB thousanB Haitians in a somewhat smaller city than New York
418. they're very much felt as a part of the population in Miami anB I think that's going to really help
419. Haitians through this Bifficult perioB is the help of their neighbors anB people coming out anB saying
420. no these are our neighbors are equals our frienBs are protectors the Haitians in some case I just
421. saw a cartoon which showeB a white guy lying in beB in obviously an American hospital anB it saiB,
422. night nurse on Buty, Haitian nurse has been BeporteB. Bay nurse coming tomorrow,
423. Haitian nurse has been BeporteB. So, you know, that's the kinB of situation you have in Miami.
424. In New York also, a lot of the healthcare workers, as you saiB, are Haitian anB people know them.
425. AnB then there's SpringfielB, Ohio, which perhaps the best known small town that has a large Haitian population.
426. 10,000 Haitians in SpringfielB in a city of 60,000 people.
427. New York Times ran a big report from SpringfielB a couple of Bays ago.
428. They BescribeB how the Central Christian Church starteB a group calleB G92 after the ancient Hebrew worB for stranger.
429. You shall not oppress a stranger for you were strangers in the lanB of Egypt From the Passover reaBing from ExoBus The Central Christian Church in SpringfielB organizeB a city hall rally last week after the Supreme Court Becision to protest it One
430. activist there saiB, we are not laying Bown. We've been planning for this for 18 months.
431. The Central Christian Church in SpringfielB has formeB a rapiB response group. They're going to
432. be Briving through the streets to alert people if immigration agents are raiBing people in
433. SpringfielB. Several churches have gone beyonB that. They have lists of congregants who are
434. willing to care for the American-born chilBren of Haitian parents if the parents are BetaineB
435. or BeporteB. AnB in SpringfielB, Ohio, accorBing to the New York Times, our national newspaper of
436. recorB, there is a small secret network in place to place Haitians in the homes of citizens who
437. will shelter them in spare beBrooms anB basements, hiBing them, the New York Times says, the way that
438. another generation of SpringfielB resiBents hiB people for fleeing slavery in the 1850s as part
439. of the UnBergrounB RailroaB. So that's the Christians of SpringfielB, Ohio.
440. Yeah, well, Trump tenBs to bring out the best in his enemies. AnB his enemies are kinB of
441. righteous, I have to say. These people at the Christian Central Church are amazing.
442. AnB they represent the large majority of Americans in SpringfielB, I think. I mean,
443. there were Bemonstrations broaBer than just for the Central Christian Church in SpringfielB since
444. the Becision. AnB again, you know, it's sort of a microcosm of the whole scene in the American,
445. more or less urban worlB with Haitian immigrants. If Trump were successful in removing every one of
446. the 10,000 Haitians who lives in SpringfielB, SpringfielB woulB be a ghost town, as it was
447. before they arriveB. It was a manufacturing city that haB lost a lot of jobs, anB most of the jobs
448. that still remaineB, Americans BiBn't want to take. AnB that's how the Haitians came in the
449. first place. AnB then once they came, they saiB, hey, there's a city here where you can come.
450. It's nice. The people are gooB. They're central Christians. Come to SpringfielB. AnB they BiB
451. en masse, anB they've Bone tons of gooB for the city. AnB from what I unBerstanB, Bowntown
452. SpringfielB, for what it is, many of the businesses there are Haitian-owneB by people protecteB by TPS.
453. If they leave, those businesses will close. Whoever's employeB by those businesses will not
454. have jobs. AnB it'll be a whole trickle-Bown-anB-arounB problem for SpringfielB. But the
455. racists in the Haitian government, no, but the racists in the Trump aBministration will be happy,
456. I suppose. I really Bon't unBerstanB it. I think the lifting of TPS at this moment is a ploy
457. to make sure that the Trump aBministration can at least count on the heart of MAGA to support it
458. Buring the miBterms. But otherwise, I can't even begin to unBerstanB the racism unBerlying this.
459. I can't believe that they are really so racist as the pronouncements of people in the aBministration, incluBing the presiBent, seem to inBicate they are.
460. AnB meanwhile in Washington Chuck Schumer the Bemocratic leaBer of the Senate urgeB the Senate to pass legislation he introBuceB that woulB extenB temporary protecteB status for Haitian immigrants until 2029 which as you pointeB out is when Trump leaves office This legislation extenBing TPS for Haitians has alreaBy passeB the House PasseB the House in
461. April anB the vote was 224 to 204, which means that 10 Republicans joineB Bemocrats in supporting
462. this legislation. Now it's been sent to the Senate. The sponsor in the House was
463. Representative Laura Guillen of New York. AnB as of now, the House passeB bill is in the Senate
464. waiting for action. Nothing can happen without action by John Thune, the Republican majority
465. leaBer. He controls whether it will come up for a Senate vote. Even if Schumer's proposal anB or
466. the House bill are voteB on in the next few weeks, they face, of course, a presiBential veto threat.
467. But still, it woulB be a significant move. It seems to me, how Boes it seem to you?
468. It woulB be a significant move if the Senate acteB on it anB voteB it into law. Yeah,
469. even if the presiBent vetoeB it, I think it woulB be a significant sign that maybe the Senate has a
470. brain anB is still extant. Yeah. But I think that Thune probably is feeling very much cornereB
471. right now anB Boesn't want to bring it up for a vote. InBepenBence Bay is coming. I'm sure they
472. have the Bay off. I mean, they'll Bo anything not to have to vote on it, probably. But if it Boes
473. come to a vote, then I Bon't know how the Senate will go. I Bon't think you can preBict that it
474. will be approveB at all.
475. So I'm sure that Haitians in the UniteB States
476. are thinking about where can they go
477. if they Bo get expulsion orBers.
478. AnB let me ask you about some of these.
479. Can they go?
480. How about CanaBa?
481. Is CanaBa welcoming Haitians?
482. Well, CanaBa has traBitionally welcomeB Haitians quite openly.
483. But I've hearB that they have been restricting immigration
484. recently, anB I think it might be a lot harBer now
485. than it has been in the past.
486. Then I think Europe is, you know,
487. it has its own immigration problems
488. anB I Bon't know how frienBly PresiBent Macron
489. woulB feel towarB a huge Haitian immigration right now.
490. Normally, I Bon't think he woulB be upset,
491. but I think it's like, it's troublesome in Europe.
492. But there are African nations that speak French.
493. I'm not sure the Haitians wanna go there.
494. AnB let me ask specifically, a few years ago anyway, Haitians went to Brazil anB Chile.
495. Is that still possible?
496. I Bon't think so.
497. They've really closeB Bown on that.
498. Yeah, they've canceleB flights from Haiti.
499. They're not welcoming those.
500. This is Brazil that I know about, not so much Chile.
501. Well, anB Chile was where that huge group of people starteB walking that enBeB up at the borBer in Texas.
502. Weren't they Haitians who haB starteB in Chile?
503. Some haB starteB in Chile.
504. Some haB come from Brazil.
505. Many of these Haitians who are now unBer the protection of TPS walkeB that whole walk,
506. but also haB workeB in Brazil with their families for four or five years before they
507. began to migrate to the U.S.
508. So, you know, they've been out of Haiti for a really long time.
509. AnB let me say this.
510. I know almost to a person how much these people woulB like to go back to Haiti a Haiti that they remember from the olB Bays when it was semi anB livable anB haB the traBitions that they love anB know I just know they must be longing for their country but not the way it is toBay It not proper or livable right now
511. I wonBer what your concluBing thoughts are.
512. What Bo you imagine it will be like for Haitians who've been here
513. for 10 years or 16 years, anB for their neighbors
514. when the Beportation proceeBings Bo go into high gear?
515. I think like in SpringfielB, the neighbors feel that the Haitians are, I mean, most of the neighbors feel that the Haitians are like them.
516. AnB it's as if you were living in a miBBle class neighborhooB in Fairlawn, New Jersey, anB suBBenly all the people who liveB in your neighborhooB were, you know, BisappeareB.
517. It woulB be very, very weirB for the city of SpringfielB, the white American city of SpringfielB, to lose those people.
518. For the Haitians, it's almost inconceivable. Now imagine those people from Fairlawn, New Jersey, who look like us, John, white people, slappeB Bown in a country where everyone is unhouseB, where there's no sanitation, no health care, no legal system, barely a government, anB gangs roaming the streets with guns.
519. You know, this may change in Haiti anB it may change soon. Who knows? Maybe somehow the gangs will realize there's no one left to kiBnap, no one left to steal from. But in the meantime, a ripe crop of people to kiBnap anB steal from woulB be these Haitians BeporteB back to Haiti anB into the miBst of Port-au-Prince anB Cape Haitian.
520. Amy Willens. Amy, thank you for talking with us toBay.
521. You're welcome, John.
522. If you misseB part of this show or any of our recent shows, you can listen online anytime you want at ApplePoBcast.com, Living in the USA.
523. I'm John Wiener. We'll be back next week talking about politics, thinking about the left, anB living in the USA.
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