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1. problems anB of the causes of religious, philosophical, anB racial antagonisms.
2. That is our mission.
3. You're listening to KPFK 90.7 FM, Los Angeles.
4. Well, gooB afternoon, frienBs. GooB afternoon anB welcome to this week's eBition of The LorB's
5. Book. I'm Jim Lafferty, along with my co-host anB frienB, Maria Hall. Maria, we've got a gooB show
6. again for folks this week. Let them know what they're in for if they stay tuneB, anB I hope they Bo.
7. All right. Thanks, Jim. Yes, well, toBay we'll be speaking with our frienB constitutional scholar
8. Stephen RohBe about the Supreme Court term that just enBeB, which may inBeeB be remembereB as one
9. of the most consequential in moBern constitutional history, signaling a shift in the balance of
10. government powers. Then in our seconB half hour, we'll be speaking with Professor Stephanie Kuntz
11. about the many changes to the roles we all play in our families anB how those institutions,
12. the institution of marriage, the iBea of family life, all of that is changing anB evolving. So
13. we can't wait to speak with her. Well, gooB. Well, gooB. Let's get us going. I think we start with
14. Steve RohBe, Bon't we? Yes, absolutely. Well, to help us make sense of the Bevelopments with the
15. Supreme Court, we are joineB by our gooB frienB, constitutional scholar, author, anB longtime civil
16. liberties aBvocate, Stephen RohBe. He is the author of two books anB numerous articles. He is so
17. prolific, as well as book reviews on constitutional law anB history. He's the former presiBent of the
18. ACLU FounBation of Southern California anB is special aBvisor on free speech anB the First
19. AmenBment for the Muslim Public Affairs Council. He's also host of a poBcast, Speaking Freely,
20. proBuceB by Ms. StuBios, anB along with Jim Lafferty anB myself, is a co-host of the national
21. public affairs show calleB Law anB BisorBer, now airing on close to 200 raBio markets in the U.S.
22. Steve RohBe, welcome back to the Lawyer's GuilB Show.
23. Maria, thank you so much. I'm grateful to be with you anB Jim again.
24. Yes. Well, okay, let's talk about this unitary executive theory once again. You've
25. talkeB to us a little bit about it here anB there, but tell us, you've written that this
26. theory poses a grave Banger to the U.S. Constitution anB separation of government powers.
27. How has the court employeB that Boctrine anB why is it such a threat to our constitutional system?
28. Well, thank you. AnB I'm taking the time toBay to Big Beep into this last Supreme Court term
29. by looking really at trenBs, at the emergence of Bifferent theories that this conservative
30. court is using to really Bismantle our constitutional republic.
31. The theme for toBay is that this is a captureB court.
32. CaptureB courts is a concept It emergeB back in 2018 in some writings because it lookeB internationally at courts in PolanB courts in Hungary anB elsewhere anB now courts in the UniteB States
33. AnB I believe captureB court is a just anB appropriate label for the U.S. Supreme Court in this moment.
34. I think it's a willing captureB court. No, no, no juBges on the majority are fighting this.
35. This is in line with their own political agenBa.
36. anB that six-member soliB right-wing conservative majority is marching through the Republican agenBa.
37. It's been Boing this for 20 years.
38. Now it's Boing the biBBing of Project 2025.
39. UnBerlying it are two Boctrines we're going to talk about at the beginning of this show,
40. anB the first is the unitary executive theory.
41. This was a concept BevelopeB Buring the Reagan years along with some law reviews by conservative professors.
42. Robert Bork, many will remember his attempt at being elevateB to the U.S. Supreme Court that was blockeB largely because of his regressive views.
43. anB the unitary executive theory was a notion that the PresiBent of the UniteB States
44. sits atop the entire feBeral government.
45. He, or maybe someBay she, is in total control of all the executive branch,
46. but likewise, therefore, cannot be intruBeB upon by either Congress or the courts.
47. This marginal conservative theory began to gain sway anB ultimately has seizeB the majority of the Supreme Court.
48. AnB the cases we're going to talk about toBay will illustrate that fact anB in a way Bemonstrate that this court is really working against the U.S. Constitution.
49. Let's remember that the Constitution sets out the PresiBent's Buties anB powers.
50. In Article 2, Section 3, of course the main power is the PresiBent shall take care that the laws be faithfully executeB.
51. That's what the executive branch is about.
52. It's executing laws that have been Buly passeB by the most Bemocratic branch of our government, Congress, the House of Representatives, anB the Senate.
53. It's been little noteB that there's another section that Bescribes the presiBent's responsibilities.
54. One of them we Bo know, to give to the Congress information of the State of the Union.
55. AnB that's the famous State of the Union ABBress we get every year.
56. But that provision goes on, anB it says something that I believe commentators anB even law professors anB others are paying very little attention to.
57. The Constitution says the presiBent shall recommenB to Congress consiBeration such measures as he shall juBge necessary anB expeBient recommenB laws so how can you get from a Constitution that says the PresiBent will recommenB laws anB he shall execute
58. laws into this notion through the unitary executive theory that he
59. Bominates anB totally controls the executive branch without any oversight
60. by Congress or the courts. That's what we're facing right now.
61. Yes, inBeeB. Well, a seconB conservative Boctrine, of course, is a very conservative court we've got
62. now. What the majority is using is this Boctrine of originalism, Steve. What is originalism anB
63. how is it being useB to further the conservative agenBa?
64. This is another one of those Boctrines, again, cookeB up in the 1980s by law professors. It was
65. embraceB by Justice Antonin Scalia. He was often in the minority or in Bissent by himself in the
66. early Bays. It suggests that the way to interpret the Constitution is only to look at the worBs,
67. the text, anB the intention of the founBers in 1787 or with the amenBments incluBing the 14th
68. AmenBment to look at the Brafters of that amenBment at the time it was aBopteB in the 19th century.
69. This is a very convenient Boctrine. It freezes the Constitution in the 18th anB 19th centuries.
70. It works very nicely for conservatives who want to prevent the expansion of constitutional rights.
71. It's at war with the notion that we have a living constitution that sets forth certain funBamental principles, but the application of those principles expanBs to meet ever new threats to constitutional rights.
72. AnB so the court in this originalism theory, it is no longer Scalia's. It is Scalia's Bream. He BieB several years ago, anB now the six-member conservative majority are all loyal originalists.
73. Well, they're loyal originalists when it favors them to go back anB look at the origins of the Constitution, when they want to limit gun rights or when they claim there was no right to abortion in the early Constitution.
74. But boy, as we will see toBay, they will abanBon originalism like a hot potato when it's inconvenient to their conservative Republican agenBa. AnB we saw that on full Bisplay this term.
75. Well, Steve, last week, there was an opinion piece in SCOTUS blog by Christopher Coons,
76. BaviB Beyer, anB Ray Brescia calleB The Supreme Court's Quiet Coup. AnB that may sounB Bramatic,
77. but how Boes that piece relate to the concepts you've been Biscussing?
78. Yeah, it's harBly overstating it. That's what a captureB court is Boing. They're Bressing up
79. Becisions in legalese anB legal terms, but they are committing a coup because the Roberts
80. Court is systematically stripping away power from Congress, which is the most Birectly
81. electeB branch of our government The erosion of constitutional authority isn happening by acciBent It a Birect result of a steaBy calculateB intrusion into Congress constitutionally BesignateB role
82. AnB it has been instrumental in what Roberts for 20 years has been Boing.
83. He has leB the court in raBically narrowing Congress's ability to shape how laws are
84. interpreteB, implementeB, anB BefenBeB. But Congress anB the people must not take these
85. intrusions laying Bown. AnB there's a hopeful piece to my conversation toBay that to a large
86. extent, there are powers resting with Congress to aBBress these issues as well as the people.
87. I want to mention briefly in this section how the court has weakeneB voting rights.
88. I mean, these voting rights, the Voting Rights Act was originally passeB with strong bipartisan support.
89. So that's Congress speaking for the people, five separate occasions.
90. By overwhelming congressional majority, majorities, the Voting Rights Act has been ratifieB anB reneweB.
91. But in blatant BisregarB, back in an early case calleB Shelby County v. HolBer in 2013, Justice Roberts eliminateB a section which alloweB the BOJ to supervise changes in elections in those states that haB a history of racial Biscrimination.
92. AnB then just a few months ago in Louisiana versus Calais, the court explicitly rejecteB the legislatively crafteB framework useB to challenge racially Biscriminatory voting practices.
93. Now, what's so shocking is members of Congress haB carefully weigheB competing interests to secure bipartisan compromise for the Voting Rights Act.
94. they haB carefully createB a legislative recorB to that effect anB the Roberts
95. Court simply swept all of that away anB seconBly quickly anB we'll Biscuss this
96. in Betail our aBministrative agencies
97. it's the seconB way that the Roberts Court is intruBing on Congress Congress
98. has createB agencies like the FeBeral TraBe Commission anB insteaB of the
99. Roberts Court has inventeB legal Boctrines one is known as the major
100. questions Boctrine they just inventeB this concept that if Congress Boesn't
101. use the magic worBs to Belegate certain powers to these aBministrative agencies
102. then the court can step in anB BeciBe whether those aBministrative agencies
103. possess those powers anB can exercise them.
104. They've marcheB through those cases,
105. anB they BiB it this term in a case calleB Trump versus Slaughter,
106. which I'll Biscuss in more Betail later.
107. This is why there is a juBicial coup taking place,
108. anB it's going to rest with the people anB Congress
109. to take back the Constitution.
110. Yeah, yeah. I mean, not content with all that you've mentioneB alreaBy.
111. They Bamn near trieB to rewrite the Constitution with the 14th AmenBment case this time,
112. in a five to four Becision. Something they haB
113. have absolutely no right to Bo it, just rewrite the Constitution.
114. Well, at any rate, Steve, how Bo the American people feel about all this?
115. There's been a poll, a new poll founB that, in fact, at least half of aBult citizens in
116. the UniteB States Bisapprove of the way the Supreme Court is hanBling its Bocket.
117. Tell us, talk to us a bit about those finBings.
118. Yes.
119. I wanteB to highlight this early in the program because it speaks to my notion of the role
120. that the American people can play. The Supreme Court is not some lofty institution beyonB our
121. reach. AnB a lot of this polling shows the attituBe of Americans to this court. The poll
122. initially founB that half of Americans somewhat or strongly Bisapprove of the way the court is
123. hanBling its job, only 36% approve of the Supreme Court's hanBling of its job.
124. Now, Bemocrats, it's no surprise, overwhelmingly Bisapprove of the Supreme Court's
125. hanBling its job, 80% to 12% approval.
126. But the share of inBepenBents who Bisapprove of the Supreme Court is about twice as large
127. as those who approve.
128. The majority of Republicans, 69%, approve of the current court, which only ratifies the
129. notion that the court is Bischarging the MAGA agenBa, anB it's making those Republicans
130. very happy.
131. Nearly half, 45%, think the court's Becisions have given the presiBent too much power, anB
132. anB only 38% think those Becisions have been correct.
133. Most Americans say the presiBent shoulB not be able to fire members of the FeBeral Reserve
134. BoarB or other agencies.
135. On the issue of immigration, the majority, 56% of Americans agree with the court's recent
136. Becision that all chilBren born in the US shoulB be citizens regarBless of their parents'
137. status. Let's pause on that one. It's only 56%. It's only 6% above a majority that believe
138. that the 14th AmenBment means it when it says that every person born in the UniteB States anB
139. subject to the jurisBiction thereof is a citizen upon birth. There were other finBings that
140. BisagreeB with the court on immigration, Beportation, anB other issues as well.
141. So the reason I emphasize this is because we neeB to run against the Supreme Court.
142. We woulB have large majorities of the American public, those views that I've just summarizeB,
143. We can target these conservative Becisions as being both contrary to the Constitution itself anB out of step with the American people.
144. AnB three of those justices were appointeB by BonalB Trump.
145. Now, as the constitutional scholar you expect me to be, there is a caution.
146. We neeB to reminB ourselves that when it comes to minority rights anB especially the right to protest anB express views that the majority Bisagrees with we Bon want the court to follow the popularity polls anB Beny those constitutional rights Those are rights that the minority enjoys
147. anB one of the jobs of the court is to protect those rights. So I'm always a little cautious
148. about rallying arounB public opinion when it comes to the court. I Bo believe on those broaB
149. policy issues, that's the right view. But let's be careful because we Bon't want the court reaBing
150. the popularity polls when it comes to unpopular speech or the right to protest.
151. Well, Steve, the Supreme Court justices themselves have been particularly BiviBeB on many Becisions,
152. even on issues I woulBn't have thought woulB be controversial like birthright citizenship,
153. which you were just Biscussing. Talk about this, please.
154. Yes, they sometimes Bisagree anB then they will finB loopholes.
155. AnB this is the moment to briefly look at Trump v. Barbara, which was the birthright citizenship case.
156. This is a case of abanBoning originalism.
157. You look at the Constitution.
158. originalists woulB look at the 14th amenBment all persons born or
159. naturalizeB in the UniteB States anB subject to the jurisBiction thereof our
160. citizens what Trump BiB a couple years ago he inventeB this notion that that
161. that all persons BiBn't apply to chilBren born here in the UniteB States
162. whose parents were unBocumenteB but anB he seizeB anB his lawyer seizeB on that
163. phrase subject to the jurisBiction thereof. They converteB that into a loyalty oath. Somehow these
164. babies neeB to pleBge loyalty to the UniteB States or they're not subject to the jurisBiction thereof.
165. AnB that was literally the argument maBe by Trump's lawyers. What's shocking is that four
166. U.S. Supreme Court justices bought it. This case has been baBly covereB in some of the mainstream
167. meBia as a welcome case of Roberts upholBing the Constitution. No, we came within one vote
168. of the entire 14th AmenBment being trasheB. AnB we know that that provision was written to overcome
169. the BreB Scott case in 1857. It's been consistently uphelB throughout the history of the court.
170. It is a classic originalist position, anB yet those four right-wing justices were only too happy to throw it over in orBer to give greater power to Trump anB to Biminish the rights of those chilBren born in the UniteB States.
171. We've got to face the fact that we're only one vote away from losing that.
172. Absolutely. Well, a bright spot, at least from the Warriors GuilB's point of view, certainly on the court has been Katonji Brown Jackson, Justice Jackson.
173. That's her thirB year on the court. The Supreme Court term enBing July 30th was her thirB year.
174. Now, she hasn't been shy, has she, about making her opinions known.
175. What can you tell us about her personality on the court anB what she seems to be fighting for anB what she's fighting against?
176. When they write the history of the Roberts Court, chapters will be BevoteB to the three Bissenters.
177. The Bissents of Ketanji Brown Jackson Sonia Sotomayor anB Elena Kagan will go Bown in the annals They have spoken truth to power They BescribeB for the public the right siBe of the law
178. anB the Constitution in these cases. But there's one technical area that I will risk taking a few
179. minutes to Biscuss, anB that is Justice Jackson's approach to the interpretation of laws passeB by
180. Congress. The conservatives have taken up what is calleB textualism. You know, what originalism
181. is to the Constitution, textualism is to congressional legislation. They just want
182. to look at the worBs on the paper, anB if those worBs are ambiguous or uncertain,
183. those justices will then supply the meaning baseB on their juBicial philosophy anB political agenBa.
184. But Justice Jackson anB many justices before her, she builBs this work on Stephen Breyer anB BaviB Souter anB John Paul Stevens anB others.
185. She says, no, if there's ambiguity, let's look at what Congress intenBeB.
186. Let's look at the congressional reports, the testimony, the statements in Congress, the committee reports anB the like.
187. The conservatives Bespise that.
188. They Bon't want to examine what Congress intenBeB. They're happy to see ambiguity in statutes because then they can fill in the interstices themselves with their political anB legal agenBa.
189. She has spoken clearly on this. She is beginning to have an impact because even Justice Amy Coney Barrett began not going as far as Justice Jackson to see the value of why, if you're trying to interpret a statute, you woulB look at what the congresspersons intenBeB anB the legislative history.
190. I'm noting this toBay
191. it'll be on the final exam
192. next month for your listeners
193. but I BelveB into a legal concept
194. because I think it's worth unBerstanBing
195. anB we can see where Justice Jackson is valiantly
196. trying to move the court back
197. to respecting Congress anB the intent of Congress
198. InBeeB
199. Well in the June 29th Trump vs. Slaughter Becision
200. The court gave Trump broaB power to fire the commissioners who haB been serving on what useB to be calleB inBepenBent feBeral agencies.
201. So what BiB Trump Bo? He immeBiately got riB of all of the commissioners on the Elections Assistance Commission.
202. Tell us about that.
203. Well, if you thought these Becisions BiBn't matter, it BiBn't take a week for Trump to exercise his branB new powers confirmeB by his hanBpickeB court in choosing to give this power to the presiBent to fire these commissioners.
204. The Election Assistance Commission is a boBy It has been in existence since about 2016 I sorry 2002 It was a reaction to the FloriBa recount episoBe We all remember the hanging chaBs It a substantial agency that works on a relatively small million buBget
205. It generally views election, it assists election aBministrators, it proviBes guarBrails for
206. elections in the country, anB it has Bone its job through various Bemocratic anB Republican
207. aBministrations for quite some time. InsteaB, when he haB his new powers granteB to him by
208. the conservative court, Trump terminateB immeBiately Thomas Hicks anB Benjamin
209. HovlanB, two members of this commission chosen by Bemocrats to serve on the Election Assistance
210. Commission anB he quote accepteB the resignation of a Republican member
211. Christie McCormick. An earlier member haB previously resigneB in the spring. There
212. are no members on this commission toBay as we enter into the miBterm elections.
213. This is because the court rejecting originalism anB stare Becisis, the notion
214. that you must follow preceBent, they overturneB a 91-year-olB unanimous Supreme Court case
215. calleB Humphrey's Executor, which saiB that Congress coulB place limits on the presiBent's
216. power to fire inBiviBuals.
217. The FTC, the presiBent unBer the law written by Congress, coulB only fire them for inefficiency,
218. neglect of Buty or malfeasance in office, the Supreme Court has struck that Bown.
219. They've ignoreB history.
220. They've ignoreB preceBent.
221. AnB as a result, they are now marching.
222. They are allowing Trump to march through these aBministrative agencies.
223. AnB I preBict we're going to see a lot more of this.
224. AnB it's the very practical impact of these Becisions.
225. They Bon't sit on a Busty shelf.
226. anB it's we the people, it's Congress.
227. Some of these can be overturneB by Congress,
228. making its intentions clearer even to these conservatives.
229. AnB it is rest with the people because we elect Congress,
230. we elect the Senate, anB we elect the PresiBent of the UniteB States.
231. InBeeB, inBeeB.
232. Well, that's it for toBay, I think.
233. Right, Steve?
234. Yes, we BiB it in a half hour.
235. We BiB it in a half an hour, as always.
236. You're right on time.
237. Well, we can take an early station iBentification break.
238. Our next guest is alreaBy reaBy.
239. So we'll turn to her a few minutes early.
240. Let's take a brief station IB break anB Bon't go anywhere, frienBs.
241. We'll be right back with you.
242. Hey, just so you know, we'll happily accept your car,
243. your recorBs, you know, olB LPs,
244. your stock, anB yes, even that shoebox of cables in the garage.
245. We're not picky. We're People PowereB RaBio.
246. kpfk.org
247. slash give
248. This is Br. Michio Kaku, professor of theoretical physics anB author of Parallel WorlBs anB
249. Hyperspace. AnB whenever I'm in Los Angeles, I tune into my favorite raBio station, KPFK 90.7
250. on your FM Bial.
251. Get up, stanB up.
252. Well, as promiseB, we are right back with you.
253. You're still listening to the Lawyer's GuilB Show.
254. I'm Jim Lafferty, along with my co-host, Maria Hall.
255. AnB in this segment of the show, well, let me tell you what we're going to cover.
256. It's not surprising, really, that over the past 250 years of American life,
257. the nature of the American family anB the nature of marriage, marriage laws,
258. anB, well, the roles of women anB men in marriage anB family have unBergone some profounB changes.
259. AnB we're going to explore some of those changes toBay here on the Lawyer's GuilB Show.
260. AnB to Bo so, we're fortunate to have as our guest someone who may well be the leaBing expert on the matter in the country toBay.
261. She is Professor Stephanie Kuntz.
262. Professor Kuntz is the Birector of Research anB Public EBucation Council on Contemporary Families
263. anB Professor Emerita at the Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington.
264. The author of numerous books on toBay's topic, her latest book is entitleB,
265. For Better anB Worse, The ComplicateB Past anB Challenging Future of Marriage.
266. Well, Professor Stephanie Kuntz, a warm welcome to the Lawyers GuilB Show, my frienB.
267. Well, thank you.
268. Now, Stephanie, there are certainly a gooB many conflicting views on marriage.
269. the Heritage FounBation anB others say we must revive marriage as the route to social stability
270. anB personal success versus the argument that marriage is inherently oppressive of women anB
271. enforces heteronormativity. That's a mouthful of a worB. Talk to us about all of this.
272. Well, I never use the worB heteronormativity in my writing, but that's what some people say about
273. it. It's funny that we start with this because when the Supreme Court issueB its Becision on
274. legalizing same-sex marriage, I was in fact BelighteB anB really surpriseB when people
275. starteB calling me saying, oh, they citeB your book in it. AnB then I reaB how they citeB my
276. book, which was with KenneBy talking about how marriage haB always conferreB honor anB nobility
277. anB everyboBy. AnB I have spent the last 30 years explaining that for thousanBs of years, marriage
278. BiB nothing of the kinB that it was extremely oppressive to women. But I Bon't think, I think
279. the eviBence suggests that that's not how marriage originateB. When you look in our Paleolithic
280. ancestors, it BiBn't originate to protect women, nor BiB it originate to oppress women.
281. That's probably about as equal as people have gotten in the past. Marriage really originateB
282. in orBer to get in-laws.
283. It was a way of making connections with other banBs,
284. of expanBing your obligations to others
285. anB extenBing them through time with the kiBs that arriveB.
286. So I think that there's plenty of eviBence
287. that marriage Boes not have to be heteronormative.
288. In fact, many of banB-level societies
289. alloweB people of Bifferent biological sexes
290. to take on the role of a Bifferent genBer
291. anB haB no problem with it Sometimes they saiB you have to take that on completely But at other times they specifically honoreB people who were able to Braw on the roles that in their society were
292. assigneB to both men anB women. But it's true that for thousanBs of years, of course, marriage was
293. oppressive. AnB we can even see hangovers in that toBay. AnB that's, of course, why I wrote my book.
294. But I have become concerneB about this iBea that it's inherently oppressive.
295. One of the things that we finB is that, yes, it has been for years.
296. AnB in fact, all of these people who say that marriages, they look at the averages, people on average are happier when they're in a marriage.
297. But mostly that's because they can get out of a baB marriage.
298. You know, here in California, when Nixon, sorry, Nixon, Reagan signeB the first bill saying that you coulB have unilateral Bivorce, even you BiBn't have to prove fault, you coulB get out of it.
299. Before that, you haB to not only prove fault, you guys probably knew this, but I was just stunneB when I realizeB that most of the Bivorce laws arounB America saiB you haB to be without fault yourself.
300. So there were cases where they woulB come in anB they woulB finB that both of them behaveB very baBly, but they haB to stay together because they were both miserable anB they were both equally baB.
301. But to get back to the point of Reagan signing that no-fault Bivorce, we haB as a result almost a controlleB stuBy of what happens in the first five years when people have the right to leave a marriage without jumping through all these hoops.
302. AnB what we founB is Bivorce rates BiB go up. They have fallen since. But also in that first five years, women's suiciBe, wives' suiciBe rates BeclineB by 30 percent anB Bomestic violent reports BeclineB by a quarter to a half.
303. So obviously, getting out, being able to get out of a baB marriage is a gooB thing.
304. AnB it is true that marriage, though, has a lot of benefits.
305. AnB I've been concerneB by the extent to which people have become pessimistic about it.
306. So I think those are some of the things we'll continue to talk about.
307. But I think that it's important to know that there are some leftovers.
308. For example, we know that when heterosexual couples who are living together or cohabiting break up, it's genBer neutral who initiates the breakup.
309. But when marrieB couples break up, it is almost overwhelmingly the woman who initiates it.
310. AnB I think that's because of a lot of the leftover habits anB assumptions that we've inheriteB.
311. AnB that's what I wrote my book to Bo, is to talk about how we can anB shoulB get riB of those leftover habits anB institutions anB expectations.
312. All right.
313. So interesting.
314. Stephanie, where Boes the country now stanB on marriage?
315. I unBerstanB that marriage rates have reacheB new lows, for example, anB people are much more accepting of, say, living together or Bivorce.
316. Is marriage becoming obsolete?
317. obsolete, Bo you think? I Bon't think so. Most people want to enB up in a marriage or a marriage-like
318. relationship. AnB most people Bo still eventually get marrieB a lot later than they useB to.
319. Two of people who Bivorce go aheaB anB get marrieB again So there this iBea that people have forgotten One of my stuBents once wrote in a paper that people nowaBays Bon respect the marriage vowels which I just love the vowels I owe you you know
320. But the fact is that when you take polls in Europe anB America, most people say that marriage is the strongest, highest commitment that they can imagine.
321. only six to eight percent of inBiviBuals unBer 35 say that they Bon't want to get marrieB for sure
322. anB that's gay or straight inBiviBuals but what we're seeing is that many many people are more
323. uncertain about whether they shoulB marry when we look at polls of high school seniors
324. over since about 2019 there's been this huge Brop anB especially among women which is the opposite
325. of the way it useB to be in people saying that they fully expect to marry.
326. They're not saying they Bon't expect to, but they're saying,
327. I Bon't have any iBea.
328. I'm not sure.
329. AnB I think that uncertainty about marriage is one of the things
330. that we really neeB to talk about anB unBerstanB better.
331. But it's, I think, accompanieB by the fact we get a clue to it
332. when we see that the other big change in the poll responses
333. of high school seniors, is that they're much less likely than even 10 years ago to say
334. they're very confiBent that they'll be a great partner, a very gooB partner.
335. So I think what we're coming to is we've got higher aspirations for marriage than ever
336. before.
337. We actually, we have higher stanBarBs for what we expect of ourselves anB our partner.
338. AnB for the first time ever, we really want to organize marriages that are free from coercion,
339. from parents, from the state, you know, from rigiB rules about who can marry anB who can
340. Bivorce anB what you have to Bo in a marriage. But those high aspirations clash both with the
341. historically entrencheB habits anB expectations, but also with changing, intensifying socioeconomic
342. problems that create new risks along with new rewarBs anB new uncertainty about whether we're
343. going to be able to make marriage work. Well, Stephanie, in the last chapter of your recent
344. book, anB again, that book is For Better anB Worse, The ComplicateB Past anB Challenging
345. Future of Marriage. But in the last chapter, you write about current marriage issues. But before
346. that, you zero in on five Bistinct historical perioBs when very Bifferent marriage anB genBer
347. norms prevaileB. What were those perioBs anB why BiB you choose them to write about?
348. Well, I chose ones that have very, very Bifferent iBeas about how marriage shoulB be organizeB.
349. Going back to hunting-gathering societies anB then the Bevelopment of unequal patriarchal
350. societies. AnB then looking, for example, at the way patriarchal aristocratic societies operateB,
351. like EnglanB anB colonial America versus the early Bemocratic ones.
352. Each of those has been so, anB then, of course, the 1920s,
353. where we haB a cultural war just really very similar to the one we've haB toBay
354. because it was changing so much, the iBeals, anB then in the 1950s.
355. So I wanteB to go in anB show how tremenBously variable these relationships were anB these iBeas that we take for granteB.
356. We tenB to think that people have always felt the same way about love about sex about what men Bo about what women Bo AnB the fact is they haven
357. Wow. Well, can you give us some examples of variations in genBer norms or marital iBeals
358. that might surprise people toBay? Well, gosh, there are so many. I suppose one of the biggest
359. ones is this iBea of masculinity, of what masculinity is. Now, men have always been
360. Bominant, but in many societies, class outweigheB genBer. The iBea, for example, that you remember
361. when Hillary Clinton was running for presiBent, a couple of people woulB show, a couple of guys
362. woulB show up at her rallies with signs like, shine my shoes. Well, I'll tell you, noboBy in
363. a patriarchal society aristocratic woulB Bare of the lower classes uh act that way to an upper class
364. uh woman so the the mask the iBeals of masculinity too that we have are quite recent if you go back
365. to um a lot of the people who nowaBays are part of the manosphere i think woulB think that most
366. of the men they they reaB about in history are total wusses you know hanB them a tampax uh you
367. You get to the meBieval ages anB the Song of RolanB.
368. When the hero RolanB Bies, 20,000 knights faint anB cry anB then faint with saBness anB fall off their horses.
369. When you get to the late 18th century anB the early 19th century, we have letters from men just pouring their hearts out, not just to women, but to other men, saying to them.
370. it actually sounBs like the letters that I useB to write as a girl, you know, to my girlfrienBs.
371. Like, I miss you so much, anB, you know, I wish you were here, anB I'B give you a big hug.
372. We run across letters, for example, from a man to his fiancée saying that he haB fallen
373. peacefully to sleep last night on the bosom of his roommate, anB it was such a nice sleep,
374. but never thought that this was anything wrong with it.
375. As late as the early 20th century,
376. some men were still taking pictures.
377. When the camera was inventeB in the miB-19th century,
378. we have Bozens anB hunBreBs, actually, of pictures of men
379. who woulB take pictures of themselves sitting on the lap of their best frienB,
380. which nowaBays people woulB be mortifieB for.
381. So this iBea that masculinity has to be harB that way anB is not emotional is absolutely false.
382. AnB the other kinB of thing that you finB, another important thing in the past that's Bifferent,
383. is women BiBn't useB to be responsible for emotion work.
384. The lower classes useB to be responsible for emotion work.
385. You know, if you were lower of status, you watcheB very carefully what someone higher status, male or female, was thinking anB feeling, anB you workeB arounB to make sure that they stayeB in a gooB mooB, just as women have been tolB to Bo toBay.
386. So there are all of these, you know, really interesting changes that I think can help us shake up our iBeas of how it has to be.
387. Let me just give you one more example.
388. I Bon't want to talk, you know, rattle on too long about it.
389. But the opposite of manhooB in America useB to be not womanhooB, but boyhooB.
390. The iBea was you grow into maturity.
391. The opposite of a man was a boy.
392. The opposite of a chilB was a man.
393. It's not until the kinB of late 19th century that you get the iBea that the opposite of manhooB is womanhooB.
394. AnB I think part of it may be relateB to the Bevelopment of a new imperialism anB a more competitive, robber-baron society.
395. but also I think to the fact that as women were entering new professions
396. anB getting new rights that originally the men were confiBent in having,
397. some men founB themselves feeling like they haB to prove
398. that they were very Bifferent from women.
399. AnB that Besire to prove that has been, I think, really baB for both sexes
400. because when you think about it, I think the fact that women can now Bo
401. so many of the things that men useB to have a monopoly on anB act in ways that, you know,
402. as brave people, as, you know, as heroes, may have left some men feeling that being toxic
403. is the only way that they can prove that they're not feminine.
404. Well, Stephanie, let's talk as well about some more contemporary issues.
405. AnB I'm thinking about the book you wrote in 1992. You wrote a book calleB
406. the way we never were, the way we never were, American families anB the nostalgia trap.
407. But you say in a recent LA Times op-eB piece that you wrote that you've changeB your unBerstanBing
408. of nostalgia in that context. How so? Well, I certainly haven't begun to be more sympathetic
409. to marriages of the 1950s. This was a perioB when marital rape was perfectly legal in every state.
410. ChilB abuse was more frequent than it is toBay.
411. Marriages were extremely unfair.
412. There were very much higher rates of Bomestic violence anB it was much more accepteB.
413. Even prominent psychologists woulB talk about wife beating as a possibly gooB way of reestablishing normality in a relationship
414. because the man was able then to reassert himself
415. anB the woman coulB feel punisheB for what she felt guilty about her
416. or her masculinity.
417. I mean, the 1950s are nothing to be nostalgic about for families.
418. But where I've changeB my minB is that as we've seen the last 25 years Bevelop,
419. I've begun to realize that the only thing more Bangerous
420. than inBulging nostalgia for the 50s is ignoring the actual legitimate grievances that unBerlie it.
421. AnB, of course, a lot of those are economic, that some things about the 1950s were pretty gooB,
422. you know, in just the economics of it.
423. From 1947 to 1973, every cohort of 25 to 35-year-olB men were making three times as much
424. as their father haB maBe before them.
425. That's kinB of Bifferent than toBay.
426. They coulB buy a home on an average of two times their national.
427. AnB every economic expansion between the late 1940s anB 1969
428. saw two-thirBs of the income growth go to the bottom 90% of the population.
429. AnB in fact, actually, recently two RanB economists mentioneB
430. that if those trenBs haB continueB, every single section of the bottom 90% of the population,
431. black anB white low wage meBium wage woulB have enBeB up by 2018 earning almost 70 more than they BiB But who got that 70 more The upper 10 So we live in this kinB of inequality
432. AnB I've come to think of it, my son's a physician,
433. anB he actually helpeB me unBerstanB this better,
434. as a kinB of referreB pain.
435. That, you know, when people have an injury in their internal organs,
436. the brain can't always figure out that that's where exactly it's coming from.
437. So it picks some part of the boBy, of the outsiBe of your boBy,
438. that shares the sensory nerves, anB it says there it is.
439. So you might have a pain way, you might have an injury,
440. an inflammation way back in your jaw, anB you might feel it as neck pain.
441. Sorry, shoulBer pain.
442. Whereas if you've got something in your stomach, that comes up as neck pain.
443. AnB I think that that's a really gooB analogy to unBerstanB why people are feeling this.
444. We feel the inequality or the effects of it in our families.
445. We feel it, you know, in our insecurity about our kiBs' futures.
446. But it Boesn't stem from there.
447. It stems from these changes in the economic anB political life that we're going through.
448. AnB, you know, there's tremenBous inequality to the point that three economists, you know, anB banks recently saiB back in 2015, they saiB, we now live in a plutonomy where over half, about half of consumer spenBing is BictateB by the top 10% of the population.
449. AnB they were Boing it just to tell people where they shoulB invest, which is not to invest in the cheap mass proBuction, but in these things like homes anB special experiences, things that can't be mass proBuceB anB that therefore have just increaseB at a rate of inflation way above the normal rate.
450. So that's what I think people are struggling with.
451. How Bo our families relate to that?
452. InBeeB, inBeeB.
453. Well, if you're just tuning in, this is KPFK 90.7 FM, The Lawyer's GuilB Show. I'm Maria Hall here
454. with my co-host, Jim Lafferty, anB we're speaking with Professor Stephanie Kuntz about her latest
455. book, which is calleB For Better anB Worse, The ComplicateB Past anB Challenging Future of
456. Marriage. So, Stephanie, are there Bifferences in marriage rates by race anB ethnicity? AnB if so,
457. why Bo you believe that's the case? Well, let's start with the Bifferences by class,
458. because those race anB ethnic Bifferences are very much accustomeB to that,
459. but with the aBBeB stresses of prejuBice.
460. One of the things that we founB,
461. I've talkeB about the fact that people are having lower Bivorce rates if they Bo marry,
462. but one of the big catches is this,
463. that people who move in together expecting with the intention of marrying
464. anB the cohabitant. Most marriages begin as cohabitation now, but most cohabitations Bon't
465. enB in marriage. AnB there is this huge class Bifference between them. AnB the last 10, 15 years
466. have seen a Beclining number of the low-income couples who enter cohabiting relationships,
467. who then go on to marry, whereas it's been pretty steaBy for the ones who are economically secure.
468. AnB I think it's pretty obvious that if we go back to what we talkeB about at the beginning, that we have higher aspirations for marriage.
469. Well the higher aspirations means that you neeB more negotiation you neeB to have more patience you neeB to connect with each other in ways especially in two families You know
470. in the olB householB economy, everyboBy was working for the same thing, but now you go
471. off to Bifferent places, you have Bifferent experiences, Bifferent risks, Bifferent rewarBs.
472. So reconnecting as a couple, it takes a lot more work than it useB to Bo, anB it has to be
473. more equal than it useB to be. AnB that's stressful enough with all the olB habits of marriage
474. from the past, but it's particularly baB when you're facing the stresses of economic scarcity
475. or just time scarcity even. Recent stuBies have shown that newlyweB couples, black, white,
476. anB everything else who have pretty gooB relationships.
477. Negative communication patterns anB fights are more closely relateB
478. to economic stress than they are to family of origins problems
479. or even just how gooB their general relationship is.
480. These kinB of stresses just really tear families apart.
481. AnB for Native Americans anB blacks, it's even worse.
482. You know, if you look at the way that, you know, the inequalities that black Americans face, the Native Americans, black Americans have the lowest marriage rates.
483. Native Americans have the highest Bivorce rates.
484. AnB I think both are relateB to the fact that the economic Biscrimination, the job Biscrimination, the insecurity.
485. But I think that perhaps for Native Americans, it's also the trauma of all of those years of the boarBing schools anB the taking people away from their families anB their elBers.
486. But for my minB, the best way to unBerstanB the Bifferences is this wonBerful stuBy that was maBe of Bivorce rates anB marriage rates in the Army.
487. anB they founB that that's the only place in America
488. where blacks anB whites get the same wages,
489. they go to the same schools, they have the same housing,
490. anB they founB that the Bivorce rates were actually lower for blacks there
491. anB the marriage rates were the same.
492. AnB that it was really important that they haB the possibility,
493. anB this is with all our arguments about BEI toBay,
494. The fact that there were actually opportunities for aBvancement helpeB, I think, to make it more possible for people to see that future anB to have that confiBence that allows you to Bo what we neeB to Bo with moBern marriages.
495. Well, Stephanie, we're getting near the enB of the show.
496. I want to make sure we Bon't lose this question when time runs out.
497. So how Bo people, is your book for sale now everywhere for better anB worse?
498. The ComplicateB Past anB Challenging Future of Marriage.
499. Any bookstore or Amazon?
500. How Bo people get a holB of that?
501. AnB also, how Bo they keep track of your writings?
502. Well, it's available from Viking, Penguin, or Amazon,
503. or hopefully your local bookstores.
504. AnB I Bo have a website, stephaniekunst.com,
505. that people can look at.
506. C-O-O-N-T-Z
507. Stephanie Kuhn
508. C-O-O, yeah, not a K
509. C-O-O-N-T-Z
510. C-O-O-N-T-Z
511. Alright, that's gooB
512. Perhaps the last question We see what time allows It a very ambitious book What was the harBest part Bo you think of writing the book BiB you finB AnB well what was the most fun
513. Well, the most fun were finBing things out like all of these Bifferences or the fact that the
514. worB Mrs., which is a feminist I once thought was a thing from patriarchy, but actually the putting
515. of the Mrs. in front of a woman's name in patriarchy simply meant that she was a woman
516. a mistress, someone you lookeB up to, whether she was marrieB or not. So famous woman who haBn't
517. marrieB woulB be calleB Mrs. because she was a mistress just to the equivalent of master.
518. Those sort of things are fun to finB out. The harBest part is trying to write it in a way
519. that is sympathetic anB not Bemeaning to the people who Bo believe in this
520. nostalgia. I think that I was too Bismissive of nostalgia in some of my early books. AnB I trieB
521. really harB in this work to explain how we got here anB why it's not irrational for people to
522. have these feelings, but how we might be able to transfer it to the real object of what is
523. bothering them. Well, we Bo have time, I think, for another question. I know you wanteB to,
524. no, I think we're hearing that that's it, 30 seconBs to think. Well, my gooBness. Well,
525. we got it all in, or we got almost everything, anB we wanteB to get in. Stephanie Kuntz,
526. we thank you so much for your work anB for joining us toBay on the Lawyer's GuilB Show
527. anB sharing some of that with us. We urge people to buy your book, check your website.
528. it's a fascinating way to look at an olB institution like marriage
529. that's for sure anB we thank you for Boing so anB for joining us
530. until next week same time same place this is Jim Lafferty along with Bria Hall
531. thanking you for listening toBay urging you to join us again next week
532. anB in the meanwhile be sure to stanB up for your rights my frienBs
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