WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:08.419 Pacifica 2 00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:09.779 Radio in Berkeley 3 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:11.539 brings you Lena. 4 00:00:16.095 --> 00:00:20.914 Don't know why. Well, no sun up in the sky, stormy weather. 5 00:00:23.535 --> 00:00:24.035 Since 6 00:00:24.814 --> 00:00:25.920 my man and I 7 00:00:33.920 --> 00:00:34.420 Lena 8 00:00:39.679 --> 00:00:39.884 Horne. 9 00:00:41.484 --> 00:00:42.304 Horn. Concomitant 10 00:00:42.604 --> 00:00:44.545 with the publication of her autobiography 11 00:00:45.244 --> 00:00:45.905 by Doubleday, 12 00:00:46.524 --> 00:00:49.824 she talks for Pacifica listeners from San Francisco's 13 00:00:50.364 --> 00:00:52.704 Fairmont Hotel on Nob Hill. 14 00:00:54.125 --> 00:00:57.429 My name is Gene D'Alessi. Is your 15 00:00:58.289 --> 00:00:58.789 explanation 16 00:00:59.170 --> 00:01:01.350 of the phrase nitty gritty? 17 00:01:04.129 --> 00:01:05.009 I don't know. 18 00:01:06.769 --> 00:01:07.269 One 19 00:01:08.369 --> 00:01:10.474 thing I think it could mean is 20 00:01:12.454 --> 00:01:12.954 truth. 21 00:01:15.174 --> 00:01:16.875 One thing it could mean 22 00:01:17.575 --> 00:01:18.075 is 23 00:01:19.174 --> 00:01:23.849 the sediment that's left after something's been stirred up and 24 00:01:25.450 --> 00:01:25.950 and 25 00:01:27.049 --> 00:01:27.549 there, 26 00:01:28.969 --> 00:01:30.430 the nitty gritty 27 00:01:30.969 --> 00:01:32.189 of it is left, 28 00:01:34.890 --> 00:01:35.790 it could be 29 00:01:39.295 --> 00:01:40.674 the bare bones 30 00:01:41.694 --> 00:01:43.075 of us, skeleton 31 00:01:43.375 --> 00:01:45.875 after the bomb. Not even a skeleton. 32 00:01:46.254 --> 00:01:51.555 That dust or that floating around. That's the nitty gritty of us. 33 00:01:52.734 --> 00:01:55.159 The nub of matter breath. Yes. 34 00:01:55.939 --> 00:02:00.040 That is Lots of it. It's a good phrase. It covers a lot of territory. 35 00:02:00.500 --> 00:02:01.159 You mentioned 36 00:02:01.540 --> 00:02:05.879 a phrase which I'm trying to locate in my notes, which I can't. Uh-huh. But 37 00:02:07.299 --> 00:02:08.599 it was an equation 38 00:02:09.194 --> 00:02:10.254 between how 39 00:02:10.875 --> 00:02:12.254 people who live in 40 00:02:12.715 --> 00:02:14.495 poverty stricken situations 41 00:02:15.514 --> 00:02:16.655 are best 42 00:02:16.955 --> 00:02:18.735 suited to become gourmets. 43 00:02:19.275 --> 00:02:19.775 Exactly. 44 00:02:20.074 --> 00:02:26.409 And when you mentioned that you, liked chitlins, which Ralph Ellison calls chitterlings for some reason, 45 00:02:27.830 --> 00:02:40.834 I was amazed. Do you, you know, in fact, really Do I really like them? Yes. I do. And I had them, of course, when I was a little girl in the South, and I also had them in the North when I was a little girl. And I had them when I was a grown 46 00:02:41.215 --> 00:02:41.715 woman 47 00:02:42.414 --> 00:02:45.235 in, many places, and I had them in France. 48 00:02:45.775 --> 00:02:46.275 And 49 00:02:46.574 --> 00:02:52.969 I didn't know they weren't cooked the same way. They were in fact put into a a beautiful sausage. 50 00:02:53.270 --> 00:02:55.129 And I kept biting it, and I said, 51 00:02:55.430 --> 00:02:58.889 what is this roulette? You know? It tastes so familiar. 52 00:02:59.430 --> 00:03:01.610 And I finally realized it was chutlins 53 00:03:02.310 --> 00:03:04.935 in Paris. How much is 11 times 12? 54 00:03:06.435 --> 00:03:08.534 Oh, I don't know. I can't count. 55 00:03:09.635 --> 00:03:16.935 What made you say that? I was wondering about your 11 times 12. Problem with mathematics, which you mentioned, 56 00:03:17.715 --> 00:03:24.240 and whether it is You're tricky. You really did read the book, didn't you? Everywhere. I have a block about 57 00:03:25.180 --> 00:03:25.680 numbers, 58 00:03:26.540 --> 00:03:28.560 and I've wondered about that. 59 00:03:29.419 --> 00:03:37.895 It happened, of course, that my father was a gambler, and, of course, my mother said that that helped, among other things, break up their marriage. 60 00:03:39.314 --> 00:03:44.534 And I consequently was never able to do a card game, you know, 61 00:03:45.074 --> 00:03:46.215 beyond Tonk, 62 00:03:46.754 --> 00:03:49.094 a kind of game you play backstage with 63 00:03:49.395 --> 00:03:49.895 musicians. 64 00:03:50.969 --> 00:03:51.469 And 65 00:03:52.169 --> 00:03:52.909 and then, 66 00:03:54.569 --> 00:03:55.310 my grandmother, 67 00:03:56.009 --> 00:03:57.389 who was an impoverished 68 00:03:58.569 --> 00:03:59.069 woman, 69 00:03:59.370 --> 00:03:59.870 suffragette, 70 00:04:00.169 --> 00:04:00.669 wonderful, 71 00:04:01.370 --> 00:04:03.469 really didn't think that money 72 00:04:04.455 --> 00:04:04.955 was 73 00:04:06.055 --> 00:04:07.435 she didn't think that materialistic 74 00:04:08.055 --> 00:04:12.074 values put upon money was something that was as important as 75 00:04:14.455 --> 00:04:14.955 being 76 00:04:16.134 --> 00:04:17.514 treated with dignity 77 00:04:17.975 --> 00:04:19.250 as a human being. 78 00:04:19.949 --> 00:04:23.329 All the women in my family had a hang up about numbers. 79 00:04:25.149 --> 00:04:26.449 I I wish I didn't. 80 00:04:27.389 --> 00:04:31.009 It's of no consequence, I suppose, at your station in life. 81 00:04:31.550 --> 00:04:32.289 That's true. 82 00:04:32.669 --> 00:04:33.805 But, I, 83 00:04:34.425 --> 00:04:35.964 I feel that, 84 00:04:37.384 --> 00:04:41.004 money is so often made the value of something. 85 00:04:41.785 --> 00:04:42.285 And 86 00:04:42.824 --> 00:04:45.564 I've often been I was often told, well, 87 00:04:46.024 --> 00:04:47.004 we don't care 88 00:04:47.944 --> 00:04:48.240 really 89 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:55.620 really so much about whether you're extremely talented as how much business can you do, and that right away 90 00:04:57.039 --> 00:04:58.979 makes that block stay there 91 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:00.180 all the more. 92 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:04.865 You mentioned the word numbers, and, this is not a psychoanalytic 93 00:05:05.245 --> 00:05:07.824 interview, but ties in quite well with 94 00:05:08.524 --> 00:05:13.745 your father. Yes. It does. Can you tell us about Pittsburgh and numbers? Mhmm. My father 95 00:05:14.125 --> 00:05:15.584 was a number banker. 96 00:05:15.964 --> 00:05:17.250 He was in numbers. 97 00:05:18.189 --> 00:05:19.009 My father 98 00:05:20.110 --> 00:05:22.209 was a Negro man who who, 99 00:05:22.829 --> 00:05:23.569 to survive, 100 00:05:24.910 --> 00:05:25.410 hustled. 101 00:05:27.470 --> 00:05:31.834 And in this sense of hustling an a Negro man, 102 00:05:32.615 --> 00:05:33.675 it means that 103 00:05:35.175 --> 00:05:35.675 oftentimes 104 00:05:36.055 --> 00:05:36.714 if you 105 00:05:37.495 --> 00:05:39.675 are educated and able to get a job, 106 00:05:40.694 --> 00:05:41.834 the most menial, 107 00:05:43.750 --> 00:05:47.770 and that was all you had the opportunity to a job you had to hold. 108 00:05:48.149 --> 00:05:52.490 You didn't want to do that, and you didn't want to work for someone who had 109 00:05:52.870 --> 00:05:55.290 less talent, less brains than you. 110 00:05:55.990 --> 00:05:56.490 So 111 00:05:56.894 --> 00:06:00.595 you risked your life. You laid your life down on the line. 112 00:06:01.055 --> 00:06:01.555 You 113 00:06:02.574 --> 00:06:03.555 were a hustler. 114 00:06:04.254 --> 00:06:05.394 You worked with, 115 00:06:06.334 --> 00:06:07.875 in many times, criminal 116 00:06:08.574 --> 00:06:09.074 attitudes. 117 00:06:09.779 --> 00:06:11.079 It took a lot of guts. 118 00:06:11.779 --> 00:06:14.680 And on the one hand, you chose that rather than 119 00:06:15.060 --> 00:06:16.279 have the man 120 00:06:17.620 --> 00:06:19.800 make a slave of you. Who is 121 00:06:20.180 --> 00:06:24.375 the man? I knew as soon as I said that I shouldn't have without 122 00:06:25.154 --> 00:06:26.134 explaining it. 123 00:06:26.675 --> 00:06:27.974 The man is 124 00:06:28.834 --> 00:06:29.735 the employer, 125 00:06:30.675 --> 00:06:31.175 and 126 00:06:31.714 --> 00:06:34.854 the man who was usually the employer that, 127 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:41.819 offered the Negro man either the right to be a hustler or work for him was usually a white man, 128 00:06:42.280 --> 00:06:43.259 a white employer. 129 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:46.699 And the spring like day in 1966, 130 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:49.394 that patois, the man, 131 00:06:49.875 --> 00:06:50.375 continues. 132 00:06:51.154 --> 00:06:52.055 Continues, of course. 133 00:06:52.514 --> 00:06:54.454 The man is a sheriff in 134 00:06:55.794 --> 00:06:56.294 Mississippi, 135 00:06:58.034 --> 00:07:00.294 and the man is a cop in Harlem, 136 00:07:00.754 --> 00:07:01.254 white. 137 00:07:02.194 --> 00:07:03.254 Could he be Negro? 138 00:07:03.794 --> 00:07:05.334 He could be Negro 139 00:07:05.769 --> 00:07:12.589 because even though he's Negro, the man who's the head of his police department is the white man. 140 00:07:13.930 --> 00:07:18.154 You, worked for the man at the Cotton Club in Harlem. 141 00:07:18.535 --> 00:07:24.714 The Cotton Club, as you describe it, was a garish former speakeasy which catered to the white community, 142 00:07:25.334 --> 00:07:29.834 although it was located on Lenox Avenue and A Hundred And 42nd Street, 143 00:07:30.535 --> 00:07:38.040 and in fact, was a Jim Crow place. In fact. On the one hand, I'm torn, and I was torn in writing the book because 144 00:07:38.899 --> 00:07:39.720 that was 145 00:07:41.060 --> 00:07:41.639 the place 146 00:07:42.180 --> 00:07:42.680 that 147 00:07:43.060 --> 00:07:44.439 was the showcase 148 00:07:44.819 --> 00:07:46.600 for Negro talent. 149 00:07:46.980 --> 00:07:48.595 And one had to 150 00:07:49.295 --> 00:07:49.795 have 151 00:07:50.495 --> 00:07:52.435 some place to show one's creativity. 152 00:07:53.134 --> 00:07:53.875 Duke Ellington, 153 00:07:54.495 --> 00:07:55.395 Cab Calloway, 154 00:07:55.855 --> 00:07:57.235 the great asshole Waters. 155 00:07:58.735 --> 00:08:00.835 Negro people finally who worked 156 00:08:01.215 --> 00:08:03.120 under a roof in a cab 157 00:08:16.479 --> 00:08:16.979 that 158 00:08:22.955 --> 00:08:24.335 bad working conditions, 159 00:08:24.795 --> 00:08:25.775 little money, 160 00:08:27.115 --> 00:08:30.014 no respect paid to its creative 161 00:08:30.629 --> 00:08:34.570 people, and our own people couldn't come and see us perform. 162 00:08:36.230 --> 00:08:38.409 One didn't say too much about it because 163 00:08:38.710 --> 00:08:42.809 one then would get all the men fired who were waiters there, 164 00:08:43.909 --> 00:08:45.605 and one would get all 165 00:08:45.985 --> 00:08:50.964 the chorus girls fired who took care of their families by working there. 166 00:08:51.745 --> 00:08:52.884 It was a trap. 167 00:08:53.825 --> 00:08:55.684 A joint as you call it. A joint. 168 00:08:56.304 --> 00:08:57.205 Or a toilet? 169 00:08:57.584 --> 00:08:58.804 A toilet. Yes. 170 00:08:59.139 --> 00:08:59.639 Plush 171 00:09:00.179 --> 00:09:09.240 line. That's, the vernacular. I think that's a show business expression. That's a that's a show business expression. Interesting question at this point is how did you get there? You were 16 172 00:09:09.620 --> 00:09:14.684 years of age. You appeared at the Cotton Club in the chorus. Your formative years were difficult. 173 00:09:15.225 --> 00:09:17.004 My mother was an actress, 174 00:09:18.664 --> 00:09:19.565 a truly 175 00:09:20.184 --> 00:09:20.684 dedicated, 176 00:09:21.704 --> 00:09:22.204 creative 177 00:09:22.985 --> 00:09:24.845 person who had no place to act. 178 00:09:25.625 --> 00:09:28.184 How dare she? You know, there were three theaters, 179 00:09:28.700 --> 00:09:33.279 one in Philadelphia, one in Washington, one in New York, where a Negro actress could act. 180 00:09:33.820 --> 00:09:35.600 Otherwise, she, you know, 181 00:09:36.139 --> 00:09:39.440 kicked around the South along with every other traveling 182 00:09:39.820 --> 00:09:40.320 gypsy, 183 00:09:41.580 --> 00:09:44.264 blues singers or otherwise, with no place to work. 184 00:09:46.264 --> 00:09:47.565 And I then 185 00:09:49.144 --> 00:09:49.965 came along 186 00:09:50.504 --> 00:09:51.965 and had to go to work. 187 00:09:52.665 --> 00:09:55.085 I had quit school. She was ill. 188 00:09:56.424 --> 00:10:04.210 And she knew some Negro people who knew people who worked in the Cotton Club, and there they took me there to be audition. 189 00:10:04.830 --> 00:10:05.649 And that's 190 00:10:06.669 --> 00:10:07.169 where 191 00:10:07.549 --> 00:10:08.610 I had to work. 192 00:10:09.870 --> 00:10:10.370 One, 193 00:10:12.830 --> 00:10:18.264 had the choice in the old days. The choice wasn't very wide. You could be a 194 00:10:19.445 --> 00:10:20.024 a whore 195 00:10:21.605 --> 00:10:22.745 or a cook, 196 00:10:24.804 --> 00:10:28.904 or, you could struggle and be a teacher, and you could 197 00:10:30.210 --> 00:10:31.429 do few things. 198 00:10:32.289 --> 00:10:34.389 But on the whole, in an urban, 199 00:10:35.330 --> 00:10:36.389 in New York, 200 00:10:37.090 --> 00:10:39.110 a little corrupt, a little cynical, 201 00:10:40.610 --> 00:10:42.524 you were more apt to be a whore 202 00:10:42.985 --> 00:10:45.884 if you couldn't make it than if you were, you know, 203 00:10:46.504 --> 00:10:48.605 young, cute, Negro kid 204 00:10:49.784 --> 00:10:50.184 than, 205 00:10:50.585 --> 00:10:54.125 be a teacher, especially if you hadn't had the education to be the teacher, 206 00:10:56.139 --> 00:11:03.360 and especially if your parents had no money to make you anything else. And I mine had none, so I went into the theater. 207 00:11:03.899 --> 00:11:04.960 Because the avenues 208 00:11:05.340 --> 00:11:07.759 select Yes. In about three directions. That's right. 209 00:11:08.220 --> 00:11:10.595 Noble and his society orchestra. 210 00:11:11.375 --> 00:11:13.955 Does that conjure memories? Yes. It does. 211 00:11:15.295 --> 00:11:16.355 Noble had, 212 00:11:17.455 --> 00:11:19.554 I gather, had had a very famous 213 00:11:20.014 --> 00:11:22.195 orchestra. He went over with the, 214 00:11:22.894 --> 00:11:26.360 a very famous Negro regiment of the First World War. 215 00:11:26.819 --> 00:11:30.360 He and a man named Jim Europe, Jim Europe's orchestra it was. 216 00:11:30.740 --> 00:11:40.134 And, when the war was over, they had been taken up by the castle, Cyrene and Vernon Castle. And so they toured all over Europe and played for dances. 217 00:11:40.674 --> 00:11:41.174 And 218 00:11:41.554 --> 00:11:43.414 Noble became the paternalistic, 219 00:11:45.075 --> 00:11:46.134 Negro leader 220 00:11:46.754 --> 00:11:48.595 man in my life when I was, 221 00:11:49.075 --> 00:11:50.034 17, 222 00:11:50.034 --> 00:11:51.095 18 years old. 223 00:11:51.394 --> 00:11:53.254 I went to work with his orchestra. 224 00:11:53.570 --> 00:11:54.309 We played 225 00:11:54.690 --> 00:11:57.669 for middle class Negro people, white people, 226 00:11:59.730 --> 00:12:01.750 on the road and in towns. 227 00:12:02.529 --> 00:12:03.570 And he, 228 00:12:06.794 --> 00:12:07.294 also 229 00:12:09.034 --> 00:12:09.855 taught me 230 00:12:10.475 --> 00:12:13.214 said to me, you must be a lady. 231 00:12:14.315 --> 00:12:14.815 Now 232 00:12:15.274 --> 00:12:15.774 lady, 233 00:12:16.154 --> 00:12:17.615 I don't mean a lady 234 00:12:17.995 --> 00:12:20.575 who does no work and is an aristocrat 235 00:12:21.034 --> 00:12:26.460 because she has money and is waited on by people. I mean a lady so that you aren't 236 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:28.460 any of the other stereotype 237 00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:30.379 Negro characters. 238 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:31.240 And, 239 00:12:32.840 --> 00:12:33.899 one must be 240 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:35.500 neater 241 00:12:36.664 --> 00:12:37.485 and cleaner 242 00:12:38.345 --> 00:12:38.845 and 243 00:12:39.304 --> 00:12:45.964 more chantile in attitude so that one will be accepted for the sake of helping other 244 00:12:47.144 --> 00:12:48.205 Negro people. 245 00:12:49.384 --> 00:12:49.529 I, 246 00:12:50.250 --> 00:12:59.950 I was trained very early to be many things to many people. There were many feelings of ambivalence in your life. You you had what amounts to a puritanical 247 00:13:00.330 --> 00:13:08.285 kind of rearing. Not for any of the right reasons. Yeah. And at the same time, you were hustling on stage asking people rhetorically, 248 00:13:08.904 --> 00:13:12.605 do you want me? Yes. That that's a phrase in your book. 249 00:13:13.545 --> 00:13:15.404 Now these feelings of ambivalence, 250 00:13:16.024 --> 00:13:20.409 these, feelings of of being torn, the inner conflicts you had 251 00:13:20.789 --> 00:13:22.570 resulted in a lot of hang ups. 252 00:13:23.269 --> 00:13:25.129 There was an episode in Cincinnati. 253 00:13:25.750 --> 00:13:27.929 There were two highlights about Cincinnati. 254 00:13:29.110 --> 00:13:38.845 One, poor mister Sissel, was in an automobile accident. We had just gotten this good job, this rather good job. The orchestra was to appear 255 00:13:39.225 --> 00:13:42.684 at a place called Moonlight Gardens. I know it. And, 256 00:13:43.384 --> 00:13:47.820 they had never been you you see, there was always that hang up, first of all, 257 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:53.740 of never been a Negro there before. You know, the hang up of the, quote, first. 258 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:58.539 So, we knew it was important to have this job. And when he, 259 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:03.095 was ill, he, had to go to the hospital and he said to to me, you 260 00:14:03.554 --> 00:14:07.735 must front the band. And, well, now mind you, here I was, you know, 261 00:14:09.554 --> 00:14:23.039 not knowing. I used to just sit in front of the band and bounce around on the chair and get up and sing a chorus of a song. So here I was having to be the leader. If not, we lose the job. Job. I said, but one of the orchestra men can be the leader? He said, 262 00:14:23.419 --> 00:14:26.000 no. Here again, you see. You put a cute 263 00:14:26.860 --> 00:14:32.355 little kid up, a girl, you know, in front of swinging around in front of the band, and you're the first 264 00:14:32.834 --> 00:14:35.735 Ina Ray Hutton of the Negro race. You know? 265 00:14:36.195 --> 00:14:39.735 In fact, I think one of the quotes in the paper said that. But anyway, 266 00:14:41.554 --> 00:14:50.149 alright. We did I did that to hold the job, and they didn't let Negro people in Moonlight Gardens along along with the fact that we were the first band too. 267 00:14:50.529 --> 00:14:55.350 But, also, opening night was the night of the Joe Louis Schmeling fight. 268 00:14:56.850 --> 00:14:57.350 And 269 00:14:58.210 --> 00:14:59.830 I had never, you know, 270 00:15:01.490 --> 00:15:04.625 thought too much about prize fights or anything like that. 271 00:15:05.644 --> 00:15:08.384 I had seen Joe Louis once in Harlem, 272 00:15:09.565 --> 00:15:09.804 and, 273 00:15:10.445 --> 00:15:12.065 I knew. You know? 274 00:15:13.245 --> 00:15:17.264 And that night, the guys had the radio on backstage, 275 00:15:18.899 --> 00:15:26.600 and we were running off after each set listening. And my mother was over in the corner of the stage not paying too much attention. And, of course, 276 00:15:27.059 --> 00:15:27.879 I don't know, 277 00:15:29.620 --> 00:15:31.485 whether you remember that fight. 278 00:15:31.865 --> 00:15:35.965 But that night, I remember I was crying, and the men were 279 00:15:37.705 --> 00:15:38.684 kind of sullen 280 00:15:39.625 --> 00:15:40.365 and kind of 281 00:15:42.985 --> 00:15:44.959 not unhappy, but miserable 282 00:15:45.899 --> 00:15:46.879 and angry. 283 00:15:47.819 --> 00:15:54.159 And this terrible beating was happening, and I was crying and crying. And my mother suddenly saw me, and she said, 284 00:15:54.699 --> 00:15:56.240 what are you crying for? 285 00:15:57.019 --> 00:15:58.514 And I said, but he's being beat. 286 00:15:59.235 --> 00:16:04.615 And she said, well, you don't know this man. What are you crying for? I said, but I do. He's mine. He's ours. 287 00:16:05.475 --> 00:16:10.375 And that's the first time I had spoken like that to my mother, and I had never even voiced. 288 00:16:11.394 --> 00:16:17.259 It never I didn't know what I said. But my mother said she shook me. She says, what do you mean he's yours? 289 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:19.339 I said, he's mine, 290 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:22.139 and I don't want him to be beaten. He's ours. 291 00:16:22.839 --> 00:16:25.659 And I think that's the first time I remember ever identifying 292 00:16:27.915 --> 00:16:30.894 with another Negro in that way before. 293 00:16:32.075 --> 00:16:32.735 I was 294 00:16:33.754 --> 00:16:37.215 I was identifying with the symbol that we had 295 00:16:37.835 --> 00:16:40.559 of a powerful man, an an impregnable 296 00:16:41.019 --> 00:16:43.360 fortress. And I didn't realize that we 297 00:16:43.740 --> 00:16:44.639 drew strength 298 00:16:45.899 --> 00:16:50.000 from these symbols. I don't think that they were meant to give us that strength 299 00:16:51.179 --> 00:16:52.639 by the man, 300 00:16:53.735 --> 00:16:54.714 what they did. 301 00:16:55.254 --> 00:17:02.634 Just as Joe Louis was the symbolic manifestation of But he was a male too. Yes. But of the repressed 302 00:17:03.014 --> 00:17:04.474 wants of the emasculated 303 00:17:05.095 --> 00:17:09.480 Negro manhood in a kind of a healthy vanquishment of mister Charlie. 304 00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:17.000 You have served as a symbol for Negro womanhood, or or do you see yourself that way? Well, you see, 305 00:17:17.460 --> 00:17:20.599 it was never clear cut about a woman 306 00:17:21.059 --> 00:17:21.799 in anything, 307 00:17:23.154 --> 00:17:24.295 in in this position. 308 00:17:25.154 --> 00:17:27.095 There you are with a sport, 309 00:17:27.474 --> 00:17:31.894 fighting. It's clean. It was a clean sport with Joe and so on. 310 00:17:32.275 --> 00:17:33.974 It was the masculine 311 00:17:34.674 --> 00:17:35.789 strength in the body. 312 00:17:36.910 --> 00:17:38.769 The woman placed in 313 00:17:39.630 --> 00:17:41.170 the, for instance, my position 314 00:17:41.710 --> 00:17:44.769 started with as a half naked Corrine, 315 00:17:45.789 --> 00:17:46.529 stared at, 316 00:17:48.109 --> 00:17:50.609 going into more sleek and more glamorous 317 00:17:52.704 --> 00:17:54.005 supper clubs. And then, 318 00:17:54.785 --> 00:17:55.365 you know, 319 00:17:56.464 --> 00:17:57.125 oh, boy. 320 00:17:57.664 --> 00:17:58.565 Look at that. 321 00:17:59.664 --> 00:18:00.964 You never felt 322 00:18:04.304 --> 00:18:05.125 as pure 323 00:18:05.744 --> 00:18:06.150 an 324 00:18:07.509 --> 00:18:08.410 image as, 325 00:18:09.589 --> 00:18:10.410 as Joe's 326 00:18:10.789 --> 00:18:13.049 that and so you kept yourself, 327 00:18:13.750 --> 00:18:18.525 you know, and this you kept this you tried to keep this purity. Of course, cynicism 328 00:18:19.005 --> 00:18:22.224 clouded it all over, but you tried to keep this thing 329 00:18:23.325 --> 00:18:26.464 for yourself. And that's why I built this kind 330 00:18:27.964 --> 00:18:37.089 of facade in front of me, this hard shell, this thing, so that they couldn't get to the last thing I had left, my inner 331 00:18:40.349 --> 00:18:42.369 I don't know why now purity 332 00:18:42.750 --> 00:18:44.450 embarrasses one to say 333 00:18:46.075 --> 00:18:46.575 purity. 334 00:18:46.954 --> 00:18:50.335 But do you know what I mean? I had to keep my inner 335 00:18:50.954 --> 00:18:54.654 purity. What I was referring to in the last question was this. 336 00:18:55.275 --> 00:19:00.589 When you were, as you phrase it, pasted to pillars and movie scenes, you are unique 337 00:19:01.049 --> 00:19:03.710 because you broke barriers for other performers. 338 00:19:04.569 --> 00:19:07.230 That time of your life is especially interesting, and 339 00:19:08.410 --> 00:19:10.509 the reason I mentioned you as a symbol, 340 00:19:11.529 --> 00:19:12.750 let me put it this way, 341 00:19:13.210 --> 00:19:15.065 is that you were representational 342 00:19:15.444 --> 00:19:16.904 of what the sophisticated 343 00:19:17.605 --> 00:19:21.464 NAA kind of Negro community wanted to prevail. Mhmm. 344 00:19:21.845 --> 00:19:26.744 Does that make sense? Yes. I it does make sense, and that in truth is what they did want to 345 00:19:27.670 --> 00:19:28.170 convey. 346 00:19:28.710 --> 00:19:29.210 They, 347 00:19:32.710 --> 00:19:33.769 I was used, 348 00:19:34.150 --> 00:19:34.890 you know, 349 00:19:35.349 --> 00:19:36.970 by, many organizations, 350 00:19:38.390 --> 00:19:41.210 first of all, to get employment for other people, 351 00:19:41.509 --> 00:19:42.730 but I was also 352 00:19:43.335 --> 00:19:43.835 used, 353 00:19:45.015 --> 00:19:46.714 most uncomfortably for 354 00:19:47.174 --> 00:19:47.674 me 355 00:19:51.414 --> 00:19:57.809 to seem to appear to be a threat to the Negro people who had to accept any kind of 356 00:19:58.370 --> 00:19:58.870 caricature 357 00:19:59.570 --> 00:20:00.549 just to work. 358 00:20:01.250 --> 00:20:02.309 Mant and moron? 359 00:20:02.930 --> 00:20:06.950 Yes. All step and fetch it and so forth. All fine entertainers, 360 00:20:07.410 --> 00:20:07.730 but, 361 00:20:08.610 --> 00:20:09.590 who would 362 00:20:09.980 --> 00:20:10.480 were 363 00:20:11.054 --> 00:20:12.034 being what, 364 00:20:12.414 --> 00:20:13.714 was said to be 365 00:20:14.095 --> 00:20:14.994 being Negro. 366 00:20:15.534 --> 00:20:16.674 The story of a typical 367 00:20:18.734 --> 00:20:26.180 It's so funny. I often wonder what a director is going to say nowadays to someone on stage, act like a Negro. What 368 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:28.660 is that gonna keep meaning? You know? 369 00:20:30.080 --> 00:20:34.980 Because I find, even in my own family, hardly any of us act the same way. You know? 370 00:20:35.600 --> 00:20:36.660 So but, anyway, 371 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:40.904 the, people there in Hollywood at that time, the Negro 372 00:20:55.259 --> 00:20:59.119 hand, I certainly couldn't become a part of the 373 00:20:59.659 --> 00:21:00.159 Hollywood 374 00:21:01.099 --> 00:21:01.599 white 375 00:21:02.140 --> 00:21:06.255 group. I was never allowed to act really with another white person 376 00:21:08.095 --> 00:21:15.075 I was pinned to the pillar so I could be cut out of the scene if it went to places in the South where it couldn't be shown. 377 00:21:15.375 --> 00:21:16.494 So I was really, 378 00:21:17.134 --> 00:21:20.515 just sort of suspended in midair between the 379 00:21:22.809 --> 00:21:28.109 between the the down on Central Avenue and out at MGM. A rarefied atmosphere. Yes. 380 00:21:29.210 --> 00:21:30.429 Thirty one years ago 381 00:21:31.529 --> 00:21:32.909 Yes. There was a man 382 00:21:33.450 --> 00:21:35.549 named Louis Jones. Yes. 383 00:21:36.890 --> 00:21:37.184 Now 384 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:54.819 Can you give us a nitty gritty summary of that? 385 00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:00.980 I think you must mean the fact that 386 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:03.859 I said 387 00:22:04.454 --> 00:22:06.954 the cruelest act of prejudice is 388 00:22:07.575 --> 00:22:08.075 what 389 00:22:09.414 --> 00:22:14.554 being a Negro man at that particular time and in my our particular case, 390 00:22:19.815 --> 00:22:20.190 did 391 00:22:21.629 --> 00:22:22.129 to 392 00:22:22.829 --> 00:22:23.329 marriage. 393 00:22:24.509 --> 00:22:25.569 I said that 394 00:22:26.429 --> 00:22:27.490 the iniquities 395 00:22:28.669 --> 00:22:29.490 and the 396 00:22:30.190 --> 00:22:30.690 inequalities 397 00:22:32.589 --> 00:22:37.424 of being a Negro man out in the street working on his job 398 00:22:38.845 --> 00:22:41.664 and what he had to put up with 399 00:22:42.284 --> 00:22:44.065 made him, when he came home, 400 00:22:46.125 --> 00:22:47.664 a man that demanded 401 00:22:49.404 --> 00:22:49.904