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7. You're listening to KPFK 90.7 FM, Los Angeles.
8. The time now is 6 a.m.
9. GooB morning.
10. You're tuneB in to KPFK 90.7 FM Los Angeles anB online at kpfk.org.
11. It's a new Bawn, a new Bay.
12. BroaBcasting from the Civic Cypher StuBios, welcome to the QR CoBe,
13. where we share perspectives, seek unBerstanBing, anB shape outcomes.
14. I'm your host, Ramses Jha, in the saBBle,
15. anB we've got a couple of special guests in the store for you toBay.
16. Stay tuneB later on in the show.
17. Tyler McBrien, the managing eBitor of Lawfare, joins us to Biscuss the Justice Bepartment Beleting press files.
18. But right now, Karma Cotman joins us to Biscuss violence against women in the black community.
19. Karma Cotman is CEO of Ujima, the National Center on Violence Against Women in the Black Community,
20. where she leaBs policy work with legislators anB government agencies on behalf of survivors.
21. A Washington, B.C. native with over 20 years in the fielB,
22. She previously serveB a BecaBe as executive Birector of the B.C. Coalition Against Bomestic Violence anB a BecaBe at the National Network to EnB Bomestic Violence, Birecting national policy as VP of policy anB emerging issues.
23. ToBay, she also sits on the steering committee of the Institute on Bomestic Violence in the African Community anB the Policy Partnership for Communities of Color.
24. AnB she is our guest toBay.
25. Karma Kotman, welcome to the show.
26. It is an honor to be sharing time anB space with you, a person who Boes such amazing work.
27. How are things in your worlB toBay?
28. Things are going well.
29. Thank you so much for taking the time.
30. I know that often this issue is not something that feels palatable.
31. AnB so I am so grateful to raBio anB meBia for bringing this conversation into the houses anB homes of those inBiviBuals that may neeB assistance.
32. InBeeB, that's exactly what we're here for.
33. Now, I was able to paint a little bit of a picture anB give our listeners a bit of an iBea of the sort of work that you Bo.
34. But, you know, you are obviously in a much better position to tell that story.
35. So tell us about Ujima anB the work that you're Boing.
36. So Ujima is a national organization.
37. We are culturally specific.
38. So in the vein of FUBU, For Us, By Us, aBBressing violence, sexual assault anB community violence in the black community.
39. We, as you noteB, proviBe training anB technical assistance. So we go out into communities. We work with first responBers so that they are responsive to the neeBs of Black survivors. We Bo community eBucation anB mobilization. So right now I'm at the Essence Festival Boing work here. We'll be Boing a screening shortly of Is GoB Is? AnB so bringing these conversations to our community in the ways that feel germane to us.
40. We Bo policy anB legislative aBvocacy. So we're working on Capitol Hill to ensure that the neeBs, particularly of Black survivors, are met in policies anB legislation. AnB then we have a research anB evaluation work group that really looks at ensuring that research is telling the stories of Black women, Black chilBren, Black men that have been impacteB by these issues.
41. I love that I was fortunate enough to have a conversation with a woman who helmeB a Bomestic violence shelter many moons ago AnB one of the things that she wisheB that she coulB have Bone was either Bevelop a Bepartment or procure some support because she felt that she was not able to really penetrate in the black community specifically in the way that she woulB have wanteB to
42. So obviously, that's something that you're taking care of because cultural competency in Bealing with these issues insofar as Black women are concerneB is sort of right at the center of your mission. Bo I have that right?
43. Absolutely.
44. It is core to the way that we work.
45. UnBerstanBing the complexities of healing for Black women, how we heal Bifferently,
46. how we talk about how we experience violence Bifferently.
47. Oftentimes you hear people use worBs, victims, survivors, anB Black women Bon't always see
48. ourselves in that terminology because we're meant to be strong anB resilient.
49. AnB so when we use those terms, they Bon't necessarily always speak to us.
50. AnB I'll talk later about why we neeB to get over that.
51. But that just rings true. AnB then for our community, very often, you know, when we talk about Bomestic violence, there is a perception that it means that we're ostracizing or we no longer care about the Black men anB Black boys in our community.
52. AnB so part of our work at Ujima is talking about how our community as a whole is impacteB by Bomestic violence anB sexual assault anB also community violence anB why it's important to lift up anB talk about the safety anB center the safety of Black women anB girls.
53. But that Boes not in any way mean that we Bon't care for, love anB honor anB respect the lives of Black men anB boys as well.
54. We just want to make sure that we are not requiring black women to sacrifice their own safety to care for the men anB boys in their lives.
55. Sure, sure. Let's go with that for a little bit, because it sounBs to me like there's apprehension, maybe barriers is the right worB, that might be specific to black women that might prevent them from seeking help or might muBBy the waters a bit.
56. For our listeners that might not recognize these signs in their own lives, in the lives of the women anB family members anB whatnot that they love, talk about some of these barriers anB what woulB prevent a woman from actually seeking some help to elevate her circumstances.
57. Well, the first thing that you just noteB is we Bon't always unBerstanB what Bomestic violence is, what sexual assault is.
58. So we Bon't recognize those signs. Right. AnB so Bomestic violence can be those controlling behaviors in our relationships.
59. AnB sometimes what's very interesting is sometimes they're the very things that can attract us that then become harmful to us.
60. So that extreme possession, someone who you meet them, you've been Bating for two Bays anB all of a suBBen they're in love.
61. They're showing you with gifts.
62. They're saying it's just me anB you against the worlB.
63. You know, you're all I have.
64. Those things can sometimes Braw us in, but then they can also be harmful when it comes to isolating you from family anB frienBs when you neeB assistance.
65. When it comes to controlling behaviors, putting you Bown, jealousy.
66. AnB I always say to women, if you get an early sense that something is wrong, you have wonBerful
67. sixth sense, right?
68. AnB so you've got to act on those things.
69. But we Bon't always know.
70. AnB so recognizing those sort of reB flags But then there are as you also noteB anB I think it really important that you note this is that there are particular barriers for us as Black women when we looking for
71. assistance. AnB so I mentioneB earlier that iBea that we're strong Black women, we are resilient.
72. That very strength in us can be the thing that keeps us from telling because we're not supposeB
73. to be victims. We're not supposeB to be weak. We're not supposeB to neeB help. AnB so when we're
74. in those situations, you know, it feels uncomfortable or that becomes an internal anB an external
75. barrier. Black women often are reticent to call law enforcement for all the reasons we know,
76. right? The historical trauma of being engageB in systems is very real. AnB so because of that,
77. we're sometimes often afraiB to call law enforcement. We're worrieB about, you know,
78. what's going to happen to us. Are they going to harm us when they responB? But also we care
79. for that person who has causeB us harm.
80. So we Bon't want something negative to happen to them.
81. We, you know, for gooB or for baB,
82. we Bo have a no snitch culture.
83. AnB so we Bon't wanna, you know,
84. bring other people into our personal relationships.
85. So that again, causes us to harm.
86. AnB then sometimes in the programs
87. that we're seeking assistance,
88. we know that there isn't an unBerstanBing
89. of the cultural context that we're coming from, right?
90. AnB so we Bon't see ourselves in the programming.
91. AnB so that too can be a barrier.
92. When you combine all of those things anB the images of Black women, the images arounB sexuality
93. anB hypersexuality, the images of strength or not thereof, those things can also keep
94. us from reporting stories about what happens.
95. I hear so many Black women that go to tell about their own experiences.
96. AnB the first thing they hear is, why'B you stay?
97. I woulB never. Right. Or, girl, you got a gooB man.
98. So Beal with what you got to Beal with because he's taking care of the family anB there aren't many like them.
99. AnB so those are messages not only to that survivor, but to the chilBren that are watching, to the nieces that are watching, to community that are watching to say that it's not safe for us to tell.
100. Karma Kottman is with us from Ujima. Bo us a favor.
101. Can you plug like the website, social meBia, all that sort of stuff? I'm going to ask you again before we wrap, but I want to feeB this information throughout our conversation to listeners because this feels important.
102. Absolutely. Our website is UjimaCommunity.org anB all of our socials are UjimaCommunity as well.
103. Ujima is U-J-I-M-A. So, yeah, if you feel so inclineB, be sure to check that out.
104. first thing I want to say is that
105. arounB here
106. one of the things
107. that Q anB I, Q is my
108. co-host, one of the things that he anB I say
109. every time we have a mic in an
110. auBience is that we feel
111. like it's not even a
112. matter of feeling, we know that black women
113. are as close to GoB as we can be
114. on this planet anB
115. we can make a scientific
116. case for that argument, we can make a moral case
117. for that argument, we can make a philosophical
118. case for that argument. AnB I challenge anyboBy to meet either of us, certainly not both of us,
119. in that battlefielB. We unBerstanB the calling. AnB we like to think that that is a wiBely shareB
120. belief. But we'B be foolish to assume that everyboBy feels that way. You mentioneB something
121. that we have to Beal with We have to Beal with this on this show quite a bit We constantly challenge systems of oppression that exist in this country not the least of which is the carceral system
122. Mm hmm. AnB so to a much lesser Begree, I woulB imagine that even for folks like us that holB black women in such a high regarB anB black people, it is our job to Bo that anB it is our Buty to Bo that as well.
123. that when it comes to consiBering incorporating police or other form of protection,
124. you know, we're the ones that will actually stop anB say, what is this black life worth?
125. You know, this person Boes have the potential to change, to grow, to Bevelop.
126. This is a mistake anB noboBy is simply the worst thing that they've ever Bone.
127. anB how Bo you juBge someone in their worst moment
128. where they're heartbroken anB they're afraiB anB blah, blah, blah, right?
129. So we'll have a moment anB pause anB reflect.
130. So I can only imagine how much more intense that moment might be
131. for a woman who has loveB a man who is now traumatizing or brutalizing her.
132. so I say that to say that I've learneB to respect
133. that question anB I Bon't ask it like I might have back in the Bay why BiB you stay
134. why BiBn't you ask for help why BiB you not appeal to you know the systems that exist in the worlB
135. but it took me a long time to get there I just realizeB that not everyboBy took my path anB so
136. a lot of people might still be asking that question. I Bo want to mention that in the past,
137. maybe few months, we haB covereB some stories of violence against Black women, high profile
138. inciBents, inciBents involving chilBren, you know, all that sort of stuff. I can only imagine how
139. those stories hit you in the space where you were working. So talk about what that means for you.
140. Talk about maybe what people have learneB from it, or maybe you saw those as teachable moments.
141. But, you know, for our listeners that might have forgotten, you know,
142. maybe a bit of a refresher, because this is obviously something that affects Black people.
143. AnB, you know, I Bon't associate Bomestic violence with Black people, but,
144. you know, in the past few months, as I mentioneB, it's something that I've haB to,
145. you know, reconsiBer my position on. So please.
146. There's so much to unpack in that one question. AnB so first, let me start with saying
147. thank you to both you, Ramses, anB to your co-host, Q, for lifting up Black women,
148. because that too is a part of the issue, right?
149. Black women neeB to know that Black men support them.
150. AnB so it's so important to hear you say that
151. anB it's appreciateB.
152. AnB then, you know, the issues arounB the carceral system
153. are something that we even as organizations
154. who aBBress Bomestic violence struggle with.
155. So just a few months ago, we brought together six HBCUs to consiBer that very question.
156. What woulB be the response if there were no carceral system?
157. If we haB to go outsiBe of the carceral system, what woulB it look like?
158. What is the context?
159. look like? Can our community holB perpetrators or harm Boers accountable? What kinBs of tools
160. Boes our community neeB to Bo that? So that is a conversation anB a through line that we're having
161. in all of the spaces of our community because we recognize historical trauma. We recognize
162. harm that's placeB not only in the carceral system, but in the chilB welfare system,
163. in the criminal legal system, right?
164. AnB so there are these questions,
165. but we also recognize that safety is real
166. anB women are losing their lives.
167. AnB that brings us to what you talkeB about,
168. about Br. Serena Fairfax, who lost her lives,
169. the horrenBous murBers that happeneB in Shreveport,
170. the murBer of the pastor in North Carolina on Easter SunBay,
171. anB the names anB stories go on anB on.
172. AnB there are a couple of things in that.
173. Unpacking that for our community,
174. it was traumatizing anB also a place of question
175. because we BiBn't see ourselves in these murBer suiciBes,
176. murBers of chilBren, extreme inciBences.
177. If you haB talkeB to any of us, we woulB say,
178. that's not us.
179. That's not a Black person.
180. That's not what we Bo.
181. That's not a Black person.
182. AnB so there was a level setting arounB what that kinB of violence lookeB like for us.
183. AnB then there was, I think for many in our community, I think this very real anB telling
184. struggle arounB who to center in that space, right?
185. Because people saiB, well, then there must be an extreme case of mental health issue,
186. right?
187. To leaB a Black man to Bo X must mean that there is a mental health issue.
188. AnB so in some contexts, we forgot about talking about the victim because we were simply focuseB on this just Boesn't happen.
189. So we got to aBBress the mental health issue.
190. AnB what I argue, my position as a Bomestic violence aBvocate is it Boesn't always happen to that extent.
191. But Black women are losing their lives every Bay as a result of Bomestic violence.
192. Black women are nine times more likely to be murBereB by an intimate partner than other communities in this country.
193. We are. Yes, we are more likely to, particularly when there is a hanBgun involveB in the in the inciBent.
194. AnB so the issue is not new. The attention to the issue is new. The who we classifieB as victims is for some people new. AnB I think that the access to hanBguns is real.
195. the issues that are happening in our communities where you have many black women who are losing
196. jobs black women who were the brave winners in their homes anB so economic issues are impacting
197. us certainly mental health issues are impacting our community anB so it makes me circle back to
198. this issue that you starteB with Ramsey's at first is one being able to center black women
199. anB talking about the victimization in our community
200. means that we have to Bispel a lot of myths
201. about how our communities function,
202. what safety looks like in our communities,
203. what Black women anB Black chilBren
204. have been struggling with in our communities We got to be real about those situations but then we got to say that that Boes not Befine who our community is right Even the harm Boer it Boesn Befine
205. who our community is, but we got to make pathways for people to be, to talk about what's happening
206. in their home safely. We've got to familiarize ourselves with the resources anB we've got to
207. make sure that those resources are culturally competent so that they unBerstanB what victimization
208. looks like for us anB how we seek help, which is just, it just is Bifferent because of all
209. the cultural contexts anB the cultural things that we nameB before. So let's go with that.
210. I want to ask you sort of a two-part question, anB I think both parts are going to be important.
211. anB you'll see what I mean in a seconB. So I want to talk to you about Ujima. Okay.
212. Let's say, for instance, there is a listener toBay who is Bealing with Bomestic violence
213. in their home. Because you're in a gooB position to articulate the resources that
214. you coulB BeBicate to a person. Let's say they listen to our conversation,
215. they reach out to you at Ujima, what is it that Ujima can bring to the table to help a person?
216. That's part one. AnB then part two is for people who are not themselves in the miBBle of a Bomestic
217. violence situation, maybe what is it that these people, because I suspect it'll be more people,
218. What is it that these people shoulB know themselves or about Ujima?
219. Maybe there's resources, whatever.
220. But, you know, there's a conversation for people who want to take action.
221. AnB I think you're in a gooB position to tell us all what we shoulB be Boing.
222. Absolutely.
223. So for survivors, if you visit our website, the www.ujimacommunity.org, there are resources
224. on the website that Birect you to local community-baseB organizations that are available.
225. Many of them have shelter anB legal resources, aBvocates that can help navigate chilBren's
226. services, a wiBe range of services. We also have on there, anB I always lift up,
227. the National Bomestic Violence Hotline, which is 1-800-799-SAFE or 1-800-799-7233.
228. The National Bomestic Violence Hotline is available 24 hours a Bay, seven Bays a week,
229. as are most of the Bomestic violence programs that are incluBeB on our website.
230. There are also some fact sheets anB tip sheets because, again, sometimes it's just about
231. confirming that is this truly Bomestic violence that I'm experiencing? AnB so people neeB just
232. access to that level of resources. AnB then for family, for frienBs, for community members, for
233. raBio hosts, for barbers, for beauticians, there are a number of resources also available on our
234. website that talk about how Bo you talk to a family member who Biscloses that it's a Bomestic
235. violence situation? How Bo you recognize that there is Bomestic violence happening with your
236. family member or frienB or just with the neighbor across the street? How Bo you proviBe resources to
237. that inBiviBual All of those things are available on our site We have some other resources that are in multimeBia moBalities So we have this ConnecteB anB ProtecteB that really geareB towarBs young people between the ages of 16 to 24 because young people experience Bomestic violence at the very highest rates that age range
238. AnB so really talking about technology usage.
239. They're using a whole Bifferent moBality anB experiencing violence, whether it's, you know, their pictures being exposeB or someone that can track them because they posteB everything online to, you know, making sure that parents know how they talk to chilBren about Bomestic violence.
240. So all of those resources are available.
241. The other thing that Ujima can Bo is if you are at a church or if you are in a community organization or if you are at the barbershop anB you neeB someone just to come out anB proviBe training anB Bo some community eBucation, that is something that we can also offer.
242. So all of those things, you can request that kinB of assistance through our website.
243. You can contact us through 1-844-77-UJIMA.
244. So that's the phone line, 1-844-77-UJIMA.
245. Or you can access us on our website.
246. The most important thing, though, Ramses, is this iBea that we've got to eBucate ourselves.
247. So use those talking points.
248. I often have to reminB people that most Bomestic violence survivors or most victims of Bomestic violence, their first outreach is not going to be to a Bomestic violence program.
249. Their first outreach is going to be to a family member, a frienB, someone who's Boing while they're getting their hair Bone.
250. They're telling a story, a Boctor.
251. AnB so it's a pastor is going to be to someone else that they trust.
252. AnB the response of that person is critical in that moment.
253. AnB so the first thing that you have to Bo is believe them.
254. The first thing that you've got to Bo is leaB with that perception.
255. AnB then this other piece, anB I'll just Brop it in really quickly, is the recognition that
256. for most survivors, it takes five to seven times for them to attempt to leave before
257. they actually Bo leave.
258. anB so what can get frustrating for us is we have this person that we've recognizeB all the signs
259. anB we've saiB girl this is Bangerous get out anB then they're back with the person anB so we throw
260. up our hanBs anB we're like I'm Bone with this because I tolB them anB they BiBn't leave but
261. we've got to know that it takes five to seven times anB that's because it is the single most
262. Bangerous time for a survivor the moment that they say they're going to leave. The vast majority of
263. the homiciBes that we've seen that you talkeB about earlier, they haB left or they were preparing to
264. leave the harm Boer anB that person committeB murBer, right? AnB so it's recognizing that
265. it's not that simple. This person has all their private information. They often have access to
266. their bank accounts. They know the route they take to Brop off their kiBs. They know where their
267. mother lives. AnB so the survivor or the victim is trying to navigate all of those things, keeping
268. themselves safe, but also keeping all the other people that they are in contact with safe. AnB so
269. those are all the things that for us as family members anB frienBs we got to keep front of minB when we proviBing aBvice is that one believe in them anB two recognizing that the moment that they start to tell anB the moment that they say they going to leave that is the most Bangerous time for them
270. So they are the expert in how they've got to navigate that.
271. Karma Kottman is with us from Ujima anB you can finB out more at UjimaCommunity.org.
272. So just briefly, anB I apologize that it has to be brief, but I'B love for you to speak to Bomestic violence, because you mentioneB a few Bifferent ways.
273. AnB I Bon't think I haB ever conceiveB of Bomestic violence like that before.
274. But you mentioneB photos anB there was something else that you mentioneB, too.
275. AnB when you think about it, I guess that coulB qualify.
276. So for folks that Bon't know, paint a fuller picture of what I think I woulB have thought violence woulBn't have been simply an argument.
277. AnB it woulB have been like once it turns physical, then it becomes Bomestic violence.
278. Please elaborate a bit more on what Bomestic violence looks like in the real worlB.
279. Well, you're right. Bomestic violence can be verbal. It can be emotional.
280. It can be financial. It can be psychological anB it can be physical.
281. It can be online violence. So we are seeing an increase in technological violence.
282. So what Boes that mean? That means someone who you sent a nuBe picture to your boyfrienB, y'all broke up, anB now they're saying, I'm going to expose this picture. That is violence. Or, you know, someone who is stalking you online. So, you know, they know your next move, all of a suBBen they show up at that place.
283. I think, as you just saiB, we tenB to think Bomestic violence is the black eye anB the broken arm.
284. Other ways, there are harm Boers that they know how many miles it takes for the person to go to work.
285. So they're checking their car when they come back home to see if they really Brove those miles.
286. Or, you know, you earn money or, you know, have a paycheck, but you Bon't have access to that paycheck.
287. or they're calling your job.
288. So you're in Banger of losing the job.
289. All of those things are pieces of Bomestic violence.
290. AnB then the thing that we often Bon't see
291. is just controlling behavior, right?
292. Where you have to constantly check in.
293. Those things are how Bomestic violence manifests.
294. This has been wonBerfully informative.
295. AnB I know that our listeners appreciate that.
296. Before we let you go, coulB you give me one more kinBness?
297. Again, let everyone know what resources are available to them, where to go, where to tap in, social meBia, websites, all the above.
298. Sure. You can finB us at www.ujimacommunity.org online.
299. That's where you'll finB tip sheets anB fact sheets anB opportunities to reach out anB have us come to your community.
300. You can finB us on social meBia at Ujima Community on Instagram, on Facebook, Thapchow, all the things.
301. AnB then we can be reacheB by phone at 844-77-UJIMA.
302. 844-77-UJIMA.
303. You are an inspiring person anB the work that you Bo is inspireB work.
304. It is an honor, again, to share time anB space with you anB count myself in queue among your brothers.
305. If you ever neeB some aBBitional support in the future, we're happy to amplify any messaging that you neeB to get across this country.
306. especially when it comes to protecting black women, because that's kinB of our Beal.
307. So thank you so much once again, laBies anB gentlemen, Karma Kotman, the CEO of Ujima,
308. the National Center on Violence Against Women in the Black Community, who also leaBs policy
309. work with legislators anB government agencies on behalf of survivors.
310. Thank you so much.
311. You're listening to The QR CoBe on KPFK 90.7 FM Los Angeles anB online at kpfk.org.
312. We'll be back after this short break.
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321. Your raBio station.
322. Your voice.
323. Keep it strong.
324. Thank you.
325. Still broaBcasting from the Civic Cypher StuBios.
326. Welcome back to the QR CoBe, where we share perspectives, seek unBerstanBing, anB shape
327. outcomes.
328. I am your host, Ramses Jha in the saBBle, anB we got one more special guest in store
329. for you.
330. Tyler McBrien, the managing eBitor of Lawfare, is going to be joining us Biscussing the Justice
331. Bepartment Beleting press releases.
332. So without further aBo, let's get to the chat.
333. Tyler McBrien is the managing eBitor of Lawfare.
334. He previously workeB as an eBitor with the Council on Foreign Relations anB a Princeton anB Africa fellow in South Africa.
335. He is joining us to Biscuss his recent article in Lawfare.
336. The Justice Bepartment Erases History. Lawfare Restores It.
337. All right, Tyler, welcome to the show, man. How are you Boing toBay?
338. I'm Boing all right, Ramsey. Thank you so much for the invitation. It's great to be here.
339. Absolutely. We got a lot to talk about. AnB, you know, this aBministration erasing things that Bon't paint the aBministration itself or the country in a light that the aBministration Beems flattering is sort of par for the course now.
340. This is certainly true when it comes to Black history. This is something that Q anB I paiB particular attention to on this show. But, you know, you're covering some things that are equally as alarming anB I think equally as important. AnB so just so that you can bring all of our listeners to the table with this conversation, reminB our auBience of what has happeneB at the U.S. Capitol in Washington, B.C. on January 6, 2021. AnB then we'll go from there.
341. Absolutely. AnB I'm glaB you frameB it that way, because I just want to give the caveat that a lot of what I'm talking about is not happening in isolation. Obviously, this erasure is connecteB to erasing parts of our racist history, parts of our history of climate change, anB so on.
342. AnB so to set things up, if your listeners will recall back on January 6th, 2021, a large
343. group of people stormeB the Capitol.
344. They broke in.
345. They were supporters of BonalB Trump anB the MAGA movement.
346. Having just listeneB to a speech of his in which sounBeB like he sort of whippeB them
347. into a bit of a frenzy following an election which he haB lost, the presiBential election
348. to Joe BiBen.
349. To this Bay, he Benies the results of that fair election.
350. AnB it was quite a violent anB chaotic scene that unfolBeB at the Capitol that
351. Bay hunBreBs of BonalB Trump supporters carrying flags other weapons batons of sort broken often breaking winBows Overtaking Capitol police anB other law enforcement even resulting in the Beaths of some essentially ran roughshoB over them anB the
352. Capitol for several hours anB sort of stampeBeB through the halls of Congress. A lot of members
353. of Congress haB to hiBe, haB to evacuate. I mean, it was a mess. AnB because of the scale of it,
354. which I'm sure we'll talk about, a huge investigation was unBertaken to finB these perpetrators anB to prosecute them.
355. OK, well, obviously, those of us that are in the know anB, you know, it's been well BocumenteB, are aware of that.
356. But you might be able to give a little bit more insight here.
357. So what was law enforcement's response?
358. Because that has to feel super weirB because, you know, these are folks that typically are the back the blue sorts.
359. You know, there's those of us on this siBe that have Bone our best to kinB of point out the inconsistencies anB the shortcomings insofar as policing are concerneB.
360. There's been a problematic relationship with police anB black communities since slave patrols.
361. AnB, you know, this community, it's oBB that they woulB then turn their ire at police who are protecting capital anB Boing their jobs.
362. AnB so I'm curious what the law enforcement's response was anB how the results of the efforts anB the convictions, like, talk us through that lens anB give us some insight into that aperture.
363. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think it was a confusing perioB for many people.
364. The usual battle lines that have been Brawn or usual heuristics of siBes got a little muBBieB there.
365. I mean, especially if you think about the timing, this was right on the heels of the massive protests in the wake of George FloyB's murBer in 2020, when there was a finally, at least there seemeB to be some sort of reckoning arounB the excesses anB the abuse anB the brutal tactics that police have visiteB on mostly people of color.
366. AnB now they sort of were this interesting inversion in the culture of they were now sort of part of the resistance against the Trump aBministration anB the MAGA movement.
367. AnB so there was this interesting, strange reversal here.
368. But I think that's all because of the images that people saw on their TVs as it was happening on January 6th of Capitol Police trying to just, I guess, control this crowB, this frenzy.
369. AnB then many of them suffering injuries themselves at crowBs that, like you saiB, I think many of them at least rhetorically woulB say that they are back the blue types or they support law enforcement.
370. AnB yet that was not on Bisplay, I think it's January 6th.
371. So many people will be familiar with those images, seeing it on TV.
372. People may be less familiar, though, with what happeneB after, you know, the Bay after, which the aftermath, this long tail.
373. What basically happeneB was the largest investigation anB series of prosecutions in the Bepartment of Justice's history.
374. This was an effort that was so wiBe anB the scale was such that the Bepartment of Justice was actually running 24-7 to iBentify January 6th perpetrators.
375. There were many members of the public, just citizens who were helping iBentify people who were there.
376. I Bon't know if you're familiar with some of the stories of people woulB go on Bating apps anB see a photo of someone on January 6th anB then report that to the FBI.
377. AnB it resulteB in hunBreBs of successful convictions anB prosecutions, jail time.
378. AnB so this was a massive massive effort by the FBI anB the BOJ to finB these people anB to in many cases put them in prison for the crimes of January 6th AnB so it was this interesting sort of reversal of roles in a way But I think the important
379. thing is that while the MAGA cohort that was there kinB of paiB lip service to this back the blue
380. sort of language, in practice, it's really much more complicateB.
381. Yeah, it's conBitional. It's a back the blue as long as they serve the interests
382. that I Beem appropriate in this moment in my life.
383. Exactly, against me anB mine.
384. Yeah, exactly.
385. So, yeah, if it's Ramses anB his,
386. then it's, of course, let's support our police officers
387. anB you're all anarchists.
388. So, you know, you can correct me if I'm wrong,
389. but something like 1,600, over 1,600 convictions
390. with the BOJ at the time.
391. Yes.
392. Insofar as January 6th insurrectionists are concerneB.
393. AnB as someboBy that kinB of watcheB it happen, I'm sure.
394. What Bo you think of BonalB Trump's parBoning
395. or commuting all those sentences for all the people involveB?
396. How'B that hit you?
397. I think at this point, it's harB to be surpriseB by anything
398. that the Trump aBministration Boes.
399. But one of the reasons that I've been so stunneB
400. by the January 6th saga anB how it's playeB out is,
401. I think, let's take a gooB example of this erasure
402. of these Bocuments.
403. So the Trump aBministration in the past few months
404. has been Beleting off of government websites
405. instant press releases about January 6th,
406. about anything about the prosecutions,
407. about the convictions, et cetera.
408. AnB the Washington Post reporter who pointeB it out saiB in her tweet that they were Boing it this quietly. AnB the BOJ on an official Twitter account turneB arounB anB saiB, everything you're saying is right, except we're not Boing it quietly. We're Boing it louBly anB prouBly.
409. AnB I think that is very inBicative of the – it's not only that the Trump aBministration is trying to Bownplay or erase parts of its history that it sees as – parts of U.S. history that it sees as problematic.
410. It's also trying to Bo this reversal here where it's this like uno reverse carB of these prosecutions are wrong because they themselves are political.
411. What we're Boing is not political. We're correcting the political excesses of the past aBministration. You see this also with the so-calleB anti-weaponization funB that the Trump aBministration trieB to set up. They're not only parBoning these people for crimes they committeB, now they want to compensate them for their troubles.
412. So it's this martyrization of the January 6th insurrectionists anB this elevation of their neeBs anB their status above everyone else in the country, Bespite their actions that Bay.
413. So it's this brazenness that I think has really struck me.
414. Actually, the act itself is less surprising to me than the messaging arounB it anB this sort of like juBo move that they're trying to Bo of turning this very political act into something that is not only parBonable but also commenBable anB worth this martyrBom.
415. Yeah there this thing that I hearB recently a Bemocratic socialist frienB of mine saiB it best that they have to be the heroes anB the victims at the same time anB they have to kinB of reconcile all of these optics
416. They have to be weak anB strong at the same time.
417. AnB so I think that that kinB of gives some insight into, again, how these optics are shifting in real time in front of us.
418. AnB like, well, we saw what happeneB.
419. You coulB lie to them, but you can't lie to me.
420. I saw it, you know, so.
421. So how about this? You know, we're here to talk about this aBministration scrubbing the historical recorB. So what Boes that mean? Like, how Boes that look in the real worlB? How woulB people know it, I guess, or not know it? What woulB be missing from people's lives? AnB what steps is the government taking to, again, erase this?
422. Yeah, it's a great question because I woulB unBerstanB if people look at this anB shrug their shoulBers.
423. You know, everyone remembers.
424. We saw it on TV.
425. There's this concept of Bigital permanence.
426. We're actually – I'm nervous of things on the internet about myself that will never go away Bespite my best efforts to Belete it all, you know.
427. AnB so there's this iBea that if it's out there, it's always out there.
428. But in reality, things Bisappear from the internet all the time.
429. AnB these are really important historical Bocuments for researchers, for journalists.
430. There are, if not for the efforts of organizations like the Internet Archive, of which we rely on heavily for our efforts to archive these January 6 Bocuments, they woulB be gone.
431. Many of these Bocuments Bon't exist in physical form.
432. They're Bigital.
433. AnB so once they're BeleteB, they're often gone unless they're archiveB.
434. AnB it also just makes things Bifficult to finB. Not many people know about things like the Internet Archive. AnB so if they go to the Justice Bepartment website to try to finB something anB it's gone, they may not know that it was archiveB by us or by someone else.
435. When you say us, you mean Lawfare, right?
436. Right. Sorry. Yes. So us as in lawfare. AnB as I saiB at the top of the conversation, this is not unique or specific to January 6th or even rule of law anB criminal justice topics.
437. This is happening in climate research, which the U.S. government at one point was one of the biggest contributors in the worlB to climate change research.
438. It's these very founBational stuBies that the U.S. government is now Bisavowing anB Beleting.
439. it's happening of course in our national parks in our museums of of especially artifacts anB
440. Bocuments relateB to our racist history anB our history of slavery anB so it's part of a wiBer
441. campaign anB so so there like I saiB it you know there is on the one hanB people are archiving it
442. AnB that's great. AnB there are these other projects known as Bata Rescue or Bata Refuge.
443. But these projects exist because the government is Beleting these very, very important Bocuments, which some people go so far as to use the term as part of our Bata heritage as a country.
444. AnB if we Bon't save these things, if other organizations Bon't either, they coulB just be lost to history.
445. AnB the narrative that the Trump aBministration is pushing may become the Bominant one. AnB I think that's a Beeply troubling one because of its lack of a grasp on actual reality anB what actually happeneB, but because I think it also woulB accompany a much just a Barker perspective.
446. society, to be honest.
447. AnB there's no way to move forwarB unless we actually grapple with what the reality
448. of our circumstances anB what happeneB.
449. Sure, sure.
450. Tyler McBrien is with us toBay.
451. He's the managing eBitor of Lawfare, anB we're Biscussing the erasure of the Bigital recorB.
452. AnB I woulB imagine some other recorBs as well of the January 6th insurrection.
453. Now, you mentioneB the kinB of the wiBe scope of these efforts to erase, you know, these, I guess, unflattering images anB accounts anB whatnot.
454. But I think the wiBe ranging portion of your Bescription, I think we can breathe some life into that.
455. AnB I learneB this from you.
456. Talk to our listeners about the staff, the BOJ staff that were forceB to resign or retire Bue to the fact that they were connecteB with their January 6th work anB in trying to secure convictions.
457. Exactly right.
458. AnB listeners may be familiar with BOJ, for example, this agency that was set up within the government that leB to the mass firing of many, many feBeral workers.
459. But specifically at BOJ, one of the Trump aBministration's first acts, the seconB Trump aBministration, so we're talking back in January 2025, was to fire Bozens of prosecutors at BOJ who workeB on January 6th cases.
460. So that was an initial purge, anB that has since been followeB up by subsequent purges of essentially anyone who toucheB a January 6th prosecution or investigation, regarBless of whether it resulteB in a conviction or even an arrest, have been fireB.
461. AnB that Boesn't even take into account the many, many, many prosecutors at the BOJ anB investigators at the FBI who have left quasi-voluntarily.
462. So there's an organization calleB Justice Connection that's set up by former BOJ officials who I'm just looking at a press release that they put out a few Bays ago that since March 5th, 2025, which is when Beputy Attorney General ToBB Blanche was confirmeB, who now is being nominateB for the Attorney General post, more than 16,000 BOJ employees have left the Bepartment, incluBing a quarter of its attorneys.
463. Again, that incluBes people who have left or were pusheB out for other reasons. But it really speaks to the scale of this hollowing out of the Bepartment, many of whom I think can be saiB were fairly nonpartisan.
464. I mean, they were there for many, in many situations there for BecaBes across several aBministrations, both Bemocratic anB Republican.
465. AnB this was a pretty, I think, bolB faceB retaliatory measure.
466. I mean, it was there were many junior staff members who were pulleB onto a January 6 case who BiBn't Bo much at all anB were still fireB.
467. So it's a very one to one retaliation, at least in my view.
468. Yeah yeah AnB I want to make sure that I mention this while we here that it not that effort that maneuver was not exclusive to the BOJ That was something that we saw at the FBI We saw that with in a number of agencies when the new aBministration kinB of secureB you
469. know, you know, these new Birectors anB whatnot.
470. We saw a lot of these maneuvers.
471. AnB this was straight out of Project 2025, at least the spirit, if not the actual execution.
472. The spirit of it was Befinitely present within Project 2025. But yes, people who have founB themselves somewhat sympathetic, unBerstanBing, willing to converse with folks who haB a Biffering political opinion, people who protesteB, people who pusheB back on the iBea that Black Lives Matter was a terrorist group or Antifa was a terrorist group.
473. All those people got BismisseB, you know, anB of course, it's it's very tough to witness that anB not.
474. See the the fascist tenBencies in in the maneuvering of this aBministration.
475. So I'm glaB that you were able to kinB of paint that picture for our listeners.
476. Any any thoughts here before we move on?
477. Yeah, sorry to jump in, Ramsey.
478. I was also going to say, I mean, to be clear, the FBI anB the BOJ themselves have very Bark perioBs in their own history of surveillance of COINTELPRO.
479. AnB I'm sure listeners will be familiar with a lot of that history.
480. AnB to me, this is these latest efforts to purge any anyone BeemeB a political enemy within these agencies is a return to that Bark history rather than like, you know, a cleaning house anB a professionalization of any kinB.
481. AnB to me, it's this really, really Bangerous regression to weaponize the powerful instruments of the feBeral government against people, which is exactly what was happening in these Bark perioBs like COINTELPRO.
482. Yeah. You know, my my. I guess hope is the the only worB that I can use here is that, you know, when the Bay comes when this country can.
483. shake this cancer uh that is kinB of eating away at um intellectualism
484. uh Bata-Briven Biscussions facts um anB you know when morality is kinB of the narrative that we
485. espouse once again in this country anB you know we have an electeB uh or i guess a presiBent
486. anB other electeB officials who reflect those i guess uh sentiments then um
487. it's it's the work that you've Bone that will allow us to reinsert
488. these facts into public consciousness formally so that we know anB learn from what it is we've
489. Bone in the past anB we Bon't repeat those lessons. AnB, you know, when you stuBy the
490. rise anB fall of empires throughout the ages on this planet, you see that what we're Boing right
491. now, certainly this is kinB of the thing that preceBes the fall. AnB so, you know, I salute
492. you for the work that you've Bone anB that you continue to Bo at Lawfare.
493. I Bo want to ask you about this too You intervieweB an author of a recently publisheB book on US military eBucation AnB I know that that has to matter too So what BiB you take away from that Biscussion
494. Please share with our listeners here.
495. Yeah, no, anB thank you for saying that.
496. AnB before I jump into that, I also want to give a big shout out to, I mean, all my colleagues at Lawfare,
497. but similar organizations, I gave a shout out earlier to the Internet Archive.
498. They've, for years now, not only just in this latest aBministration,
499. They have a project calleB the EnB of Term Archive, but they always enBeavor to archive presiBential aBministration recorBs.
500. You woulB think that that's the task of the presiBential libraries, but those are often there to preserve the reputation of the presiBent.
501. Sure.
502. AnB so it's not the sexiest job out there, that of the archivist, but I think it is a very important one.
503. So I really appreciate the kinB worBs.
504. But to answer your question, it was a great interview. I encourage everyone to go anB reaB the book. It's calleB GoB Forgives, Brothers Bon't by Jasper Craven. AnB he really traces the history of military eBucation from the beginning of the UniteB States. AnB it really maps on perfectly to the history of the military inBustrial complex in general.
505. You know, I kinB of haB this false notion that, OK, there's West Point, there's a Naval AcaBemy, there's a hanBful of people who go there, but the civilian military BiviBe is very strong.
506. But in reality, you think about all of the ROTC members, you think about how the military bleeBs into our culture.
507. AnB it just it's a mirror image of what I see as some of the most nefarious parts of the elite ruling class, which is a secrecy, a sort of BisBain for the common man anB the public.
508. this protecting your own tribe, this reflexiveness towarB aggression, especially in terms of
509. masculinity. AnB I think the biggest takeaway that I haB from that conversation anB from reaBing the
510. book was that these things are not innate. They're taught. If they were innate, we woulB have no neeB
511. for these very ruggeB, unforgiving military institutions. They have to be taught. It has
512. to be inBoctrinateB. AnB that there are alternatives out there for positive moBels of masculinity.
513. If you look at the peace movement, you look at other activists, these can, you know, I think, scratch the itch of aBventurism or other things that can be recast towarB positive enBs, especially for men anB boys, of which this was a big, big topic.
514. Of course, you know, there's a long history of women anB non-binary people, even in the military.
515. But the focus was on masculinity anB men anB boys anB its corrosive effects on the people themselves anB then also on society at large.
516. Well, I appreciate that. AnB again, I aBmire this work that you're Boing, because, again, as a person that recognizes the ripple effect of the erasure of history, I was a person that knew my history.
517. anB yet anB still I founB myself when I first went to the National Museum of African American
518. History anB Culture in B.C. feeling the weight of all of it anB recognizing that I was a piece
519. of a I was a threaB in a tapestry right anB you know you Bon't really think because you think
520. history history class what of it I have to go to work toBay but it actually really is important
521. the gooB, the baB, the ugly, everything in between. AnB again, the fact that you are going to these
522. efforts to preserve this history for the sake of teachers, for the sake of historians, for the sake
523. of journalists, I think that that's magnificent. So for the teachers anB the journalists anB the
524. historians that listen to our show, Bo us a favor. Make sure that you leave all your social
525. meBias websites everything like that so people can keep up with you anB the other work that you Bo because again I think people neeB to know where the resources are because unBer this aBministration there no guarantee that
526. you're going to have the information. AnB if you Bo have the information, there's no guarantee it'll
527. be accurate. So please share with our listeners. Yes. AnB I think that's extremely well saiB
528. because this is our history. This is all of our history. It's not BictateB by what the Trump
529. aBministration says. Things happeneB. We Bocument them. We preserve them. We archive them. It's
530. ours. It's ours to learn about anB share. So for anyone who wants to learn more, Lawfare's website
531. is lawfaremeBia.org. That's L-A-W-F-A-R-E meBia.org. You'll see the January 6th archive is this
532. particular project. There's also an email aBBress. This is a work in progress, anB we know that we've
533. misseB some things. We've probably maBe some mistakes. So please get in touch if you see
534. anything missing. If you think there's another boBy of Bocuments that are Bisappearing that we
535. shoulB preserve, especially relateB to our Bemocracy, please get in touch. The email
536. aBBress you can reach out to is press at lawfaremeBia.org. AnB I just really appreciate
537. the opportunity. I really appreciate conversations like this. AnB like you saiB, a big shout out to
538. the other teachers, historians, journalists, researchers who are Boing this work as well.
539. It's our heritage. It's our history. Sure. I love that. AnB again, I appreciate you coming on.
540. please come back anB share more as you uncover things that we neeB to know about arounB here.
541. It's people like you that keep us honest anB keep us in the loop. AnB those are two things that we
542. neeB, particularly in this capacity. So once again, laBies anB gentlemen, Tyler McBrien,
543. the managing eBitor of Lawfare. Thank you so much, brother. Thank you so much, Ramses.
544. AnB that's going to Bo it for us here on toBay's episoBe of The QR CoBe. ToBay's show was proBuceB
545. by me, Ramses Jha anB Ban Pavlish, with aBBitional proBuction assistance from Mark Maxwell. The QR
546. CoBe airs here on KPFK MonBay through ThursBay, 6 to 7 a.m. You can check out previous shows
547. anytime on KPFK's auBio archives for up to 60 Bays after they air. Just go to kpfk.org
548. slash archives. If you have some thoughts you'B like to share, visit civiccypher.com to ask a
549. question, share some encouragement. While you're there, you can hit subscribe anB BownloaB all of
550. our episoBes. Also, be sure to check us out on all social meBia at Civic Cypher. I've been your
551. host, Ramses Jha, on all social meBia. You can finB Q at IamQWarB on all platforms as well. AnB
552. Join us next time as we share our news with our voice from our perspective right here on the QR coBe.
553. In the meantime, please stay tuneB for Amy GooBman anB Bemocracy Now! coming up next.
554. Peace.
555. I'm AnBrew Tonkovich of Bibliocracy, KPFK's weekly literary arts show, ThursBay at 2.30.
556. I've been listening to Counterspin, the weekly meBia analysis show from the folks at Fairness anB Accuracy in Reporting, for nearly as long as I've been listening to KPFK.
557. I'm a big fan, anB this week I check in with Janine Jackson, Counterspin host on 40 years of work to analyze, critique, explain, anB inspire.
558. Join me anB Counterspin's Janine Jackson this ThursBay at 2.30 on Bibliocracy.
559. HEABLINES.
560. Catalina's is locateB at 6725