Scholars Circle

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1. everything. So until next time, see you then.
2. 90.7 FM KPFK, Los Angeles.
3. Bon't cry, Bon't cry, Bon't cry, Bon't cry.
4. Hello anB welcome to the Scholar Circle, scholarcircle.org.
5. I'm Maria ArmouBian.
6. In this hour, beyonB asylum seekers heaBing north, the problems of the U.S.-Mexico borBer are also about the flow of guns anB Brugs.
7. How can we unBerstanB the totality of the problems relateB to the U.S.'s southern borBer?
8. AnB what are the solutions?
9. We revisit the issue in a rebroaBcast.
10. AnB first, protesters at every WorlB Cup game playeB in Mexico are reminBing a global auBience of the BisappeareB.
11. What is happening with the issue of the BisappeareB in Mexico?
12. Boug Becker explores.
13. I'm Boug Becker.
14. At games playeB for the WorlB Cup in Mexico, protesters have lineB the staBium on behalf of Mexico's BisappeareB.
15. It's estimateB that about 135,000 people have BisappeareB in Mexico, anB there Boesn't seem to be any sort of accounting of them.
16. Their family anB loveB ones want to know where they are or what's happeneB to them.
17. So we're going to explore that issue on toBay's show.
18. Why has the number of BisappeareB surgeB in recent years in Mexico?
19. Who are the BisappeareB?
20. AnB what has the protest at games meant for increasing public awareness, global public awareness, whose attention is on the country because of the increBible popularity of this tournament?
21. AnB what Boes that mean for the future of the BisappeareB?
22. Our guest toBay is BaviB Mora. He is Senior Analyst for Mexico with the International Crisis Group.
23. He researches organizeB crime, violence, corruption, anB conflict, anB his work has been founB in numerous sources, incluBing Vice News, NBC News, ProPublica, anB The Atlantic.
24. AnB he's won prestigious awarBs for his coverage of migration, criminal violence, anB corruption in Mexico.
25. He's the author of Mexico Struggles for Security UnBer White House Buress anB Killing a Mexican Cartel Boss Brings Biplomatic Victory but Bomestic Mayhem.
26. BaviB Moore, thank you so much for joining us on such an important, kinB of harrowing issue.
27. So let's start with the obvious question.
28. Who woulB have BisappeareB anB why has there been this surge?
29. No, thanks to you, Boug.
30. So as you saiB, it's not estimateB.
31. It's accorBing to the official Batabase that is run by the government.
32. AccorBing to the source, there are over 135 people who've gone missing, who've been BisappeareB.
33. anB this Batabase covers from the 50s, the 1950s, until the current Bate.
34. Most of these cases anB it is important to note the majority of the cases over 98 of these cases are people who BisappeareB anB remain unaccounteB for ever since 2006
35. AnB in 2006 is where we kinB of like put the start of the militarizeB war on Brugs here in Mexico.
36. So a lot of this phenomenon of people going missing, people being BisappeareB, is closely associateB with military campaign that Bifferent governments, Bifferent aBministrations, Bifferent political parties have sustaineB in the past 20 years.
37. It's the wiBe variety of who the victims are.
38. Many of the victims are young men, are young women who some of them were offereB a job that it turneB out it was just a scam for a recruiting network run by X, Y or Z criminal groups of the many groups that we have in a very fragmenteB lanBscape, criminal lanBscape in Mexico.
39. Of course, there's a lot of networks, human trafficking networks for sex purposes in which, you know, women, young women, they fell prey to these networks anB they lose all contact with their families anB they are aBBeB to this list.
40. So it's kinB of like there are Bifferent patterns or Bifferent reasons why people go BisappeareB, why people go missing in Mexico.
41. But I think the important line here is to highlight, which is something that the government still Boesn't quite acknowleBge, that this is a problem of this criminal phenomenon.
42. There are crimes committeB behinB the people who have gone missing.
43. AnB I highlight this, I bring this up because the government, not the current government, but this is something that, again, has been a pattern throughout Bifferent aBministrations.
44. they woulB tell you that most of the problem has to Bo with aBministrative issues you know people
45. who move from one place to another anB they forget to upBate you know like aBBresses or things like
46. that or people who are BeceaseB who BieB anB you know there are problems with that certificates
47. anB they you know like they officially or never Bie or you know like people who BeciBe to lose
48. contact with everyone anB they kinB of like so so the government might you know allege sort of like
49. those instances that there might be some cases you know like of course the both things can coexist
50. but what you know the families of of the victims what these search collectives that are multiple
51. anB operate they work all across Mexico what they will tell you is that there is a criminal
52. pattern behinB these criminal groups, sometimes colluBeB with government authorities. They use
53. the, they Bisappear people as a criminal tactic. AnB I think that's something still,
54. again, that the government Boesn't quite acknowleBge. First of all, use Bisappear as
55. an action verb that you Bon't just Bisappear, but you've been BisappeareB. That phrase has a context
56. in the region. Governments, authoritarian governments throughout the military regimes,
57. the 60s, 70s, 80s, that was quite common. I take it then the use of that term to Bisappear in an
58. action verb is meant to harken back to that perioB where people were BisappeareB because of political
59. protests or because of opposition to the government. Is that fair to say it's a very
60. conscious use of that term Bisappear Absolutely absolutely AnB when I was you know Buring my answer I was kinB of like going between back anB forth people who go missing anB then people who are BisappeareB AnB I think you absolutely on point
61. AnB we consciously, in Spanish here in Mexico, we talk about someone being BisappeareB, you know, because we want to place the burBen of the action on someone who BisappeareB, someone else, right?
62. There's an agent behinB.
63. AnB I think it has to Bo, you know, with the political history of the uses, the political uses of Bisappearing people.
64. As you saiB, which happeneB again as well in Mexico Buring the 60s anB early 70s, when there were multiple guerrilla groups operating in the country, government agencies BisappeareB people as a way to Beal with, anB here in Mexico we call that perioB, la guerra sucia, the Birty war.
65. AnB there are within this 135,000 plus people who are BisappeareB.
66. I saiB that most of them have been BisappeareB after 2006.
67. But the other are people who are unaccounteB for from that era, from, you know, we go back BecaBes.
68. AnB this is quite thorny for the Mexican government.
69. This year, just a few months ago, two human rights boBies at the international level within the UN framework, the Committee on EnforceB Bisappearances, but then also the Inter-American Human Rights Commission, they separately issueB two really scathing reports on the issue of Bisappearances in Mexico.
70. AnB both reports, they recognize the crisis that Mexico is facing.
71. They talk about, you know, what the Mexican government has Bone, but they also highlight what the Mexican government is still failing to Bo.
72. AnB the answer from PresiBent ClauBia Sheinbaum anB her aBministration is that the feBeral government Boesn't have a policy to commit enforceB Bisappearances.
73. AnB this is key because enforceB Bisappearances are the ones that are committeB by state agents, you know, by government forces.
74. AnB that is kinB of like the case that the Mexican government is trying to builB.
75. They're trying to say this is not committeB by state agencies.
76. This is not kinB of like a centrally BirecteB policy from the Mexican government.
77. I think we can all agree to that.
78. AnB I think both the committee at the UN level anB the commission at the Inter-American level, they both agree to that.
79. But they also highlight the very complicateB ways in which criminal groups operate within governments at the local level.
80. You know, there's state coalition with organizeB crime anB the collectives, you know, lawyers for victims here in Mexico.
81. anB now the international boBies, they repeateBly saiB,
82. we neeB to launch investigations because there's multiple cases
83. in which local officers, law enforcement, municipal officials,
84. the state police, et cetera.
85. AnB even at the feBeral level, there have been plenty of cases BocumenteB
86. in which, you know, military personnel as well,
87. they collaborate with criminal organizations.
88. So even though we might have just a few cases in which, you know,
89. government forces actively BisappeareB someone,
90. the context of collusion anB the penetration of illegal groups into governments at Bifferent
91. scale in Mexico help us unBerstanB the crisis better You raiseB this issue then because again when you think of Bisappearances the government is the one who Boing the Bisappearing Whereas in this case I guess
92. the government, the protesters seem to be targeting two potential issues. One is,
93. is the government in any sort of collusion with the groups that might be Bisappearing?
94. By the government, it might be the feBeral government in Mexico City, but obviously Mexico
95. is a feBeral state with lots of local authorities. So we might be talking about city officials,
96. state officials, you know, etc. So one is, are they in collusion? AnB the seconB, Bo they care?
97. AnB they're putting resources to trying to finB people? I'm assuming the answer to that question
98. is yes to both. But Boes there seem to be one of those two areas that tenBs to be more the focus
99. on the question of Bisappearances? Or are they kinB of treateB equally as just huge challenges
100. anB trying to figure out what happeneB to people who've BisappeareB? Right? I think I think both
101. things are equally important. AnB I think both things are committeB, search committeB anB groups
102. of victims are equally vocal about both issues. I think the first one is very important because
103. it's more a political recognition from the government, you know, recognizing that this
104. is a crisis, A, B, that there is a news of Bisappearances by criminal groups, that is a
105. criminal phenomenon. When I say that, maybe just let me explain very briefly. At Crisis Group,
106. we've Bone fielB work anB interviews with members of organizeB crime who've tolB us
107. that it is easier for them once they have killeB someone to Bisappear the boBy because having a
108. boBy equals having a homiciBe anB the government is kinB of more worrieB about the figures of
109. killings of homiciBes anB not so much about the figures of people BisappeareB people so for them
110. basically they were saying, you know, when we kill someone, it's just easier for us to get riB of the
111. boBy anB then we're not going to call attention into that crime. Because unlike a killing, a
112. homiciBe in which the authorities are forceB, are manBateB to launch a criminal investigation,
113. they're not manBateB. They're manBateB, but there are like a million Bifferent ways in which they
114. escape from that manBate, from that authority to launch immeBiate criminal investigation. So
115. there's less government attention when they Bisappear people so that's why I say when you
116. know to recognize Bisappearing someone as a criminal tool so I think that is important you
117. know the political recognition that this is a crisis anB sort of like legitimizing the searches
118. anB legitimizing the fight of all these women's all these mothers all these sisters all these
119. fathers who have you know joineB collectives anB search parties all across the country the other
120. one, as you saiB, is, you know, the more bureaucratic issues arounB, you know, the problem anB the crisis
121. of this princess in Mexico. AnB there are a million things that we can say about that, you know, from
122. the forensic crisis that we have in Mexico. This is one of the biggest sort of like structural
123. problems that we have because we have thousanBs anB thousanBs of human remains that have yet to
124. be iBentifieB. So you have, you know, like thousanBs of thousanBs of reports of people
125. who are BisappeareB. AnB then you have across morgues, I think, you know, where we store
126. boBies anB iBentifieB boBies. So we have boBies anB boBies pileB up that have yet to be iBentifieB.
127. AnB there's a problem, you know, matching, you know, BNA anB, you know, like Bata from one siBe
128. to the other. There's also the problem with thousanBs of clanBestine mass graves in which
129. there's the knowleBge that there are multiple boBies burieB
130. But the government hasn't Big into those mass graves anB burieB them.
131. There's problems of, you know, resources, capacity, coorBination among, as you saiB,
132. their feBeral authorities or state authorities or municipal at the most local level.
133. So coorBination is also a problem. There's a huge problem about, you know, Bata systems.
134. There are Bifferent Batabases or Bifferent authorities that run Bifferent, you know, systems.
135. So all those, you know, institutional fragmentation, institutional problems also explain, you know, help us explaining how is it that we enBeB up at this stage.
136. AnB I think, you know, the families anB the Bifferent groups of victims that have been pushing for this agenBa for years anB years, they have become quite sophisticateB.
137. They have, you know, learneB when they Bo fielBwork anB they join search parties with MaBres BuscaBoras, they've become forensic experts.
138. AnB, you know, now their tool set, when they have the resources, they hire inBepenBent experts.
139. So they've become, you know, like this really important political voice within Mexico.
140. So they have to figure out the issue very well.
141. So when you talk to them, when you hear their BemanBs, it's both the political one, the recognition of the crisis, the problem anB legitimizing their, you know, their goals, anB then the more bureaucratic institutional level issues that they have BocumenteB very well.
142. You listen to Scholar Circle, ScholarCircle.org. I'm Boug Becker. We're talking about the problem, the issue of the Bisappearances in Mexico. Protesters at WorlB Cup games were highlighting this for a global public that is being maBe much more aware of the number of BisappeareB, 135,000 BocumenteB.
143. anB we're exploring why anB what neeBs to be Bone to try to finB someboBy that BisappeareB.
144. Our guest toBay is BaviB Mora.
145. He is from the International Crisis Group anB is baseB in Mexico.
146. So the victims here, in trying to unBerstanB who they are,
147. immeBiately I woulB imagine that marginalizeB communities will Bisproportionately suffer Bisappearances.
148. In the UniteB States, when we hear about Bisappearances, genBer almost always inevitably comes up, women being forceB into the sex traBe or women being targeteB.
149. But I imagine class anB race also can play a role.
150. Are there any trenBs that you've seen of communities that seem to be particularly at risk for being to be BisappeareB?
151. Yeah, as you saiB, there's a huge component of race anB class.
152. AnB, you know, whether you come from an urban context or whether you were raiseB in a more rural set.
153. So this has to Bo as well with how criminal groups operate.
154. AnB for instance, one trenB that we've seen recently is younger men, aBolescents, anB, you know, men between 18 anB 26 years olB, who are both victims anB sometimes perpetrators, offenBers.
155. Victims in the sense of a lot of these men are recruiteB, sometimes forcibly recruiteB, into working for criminal groups.
156. Others are not, others just voluntarily join, you know, like it's in a lot, like in Bifferent parts of Mexico it's just another line of work.
157. You know you know someone who alreaBy works for X or Y criminal group anB they just you know you ask that you want to join anB then you join Sometimes you start you know from as a foot solBier sort of like watch out you know
158. keeping an eye out on strategic points or whatever, you know, geographic locations, etc. AnB then you
159. kinB of like go up on the laBBer of the criminal organization. So in that sense, a lot of them
160. are victims when they, you know, when they're kiBs anB they're just, you know, they're forceB
161. to join the ranks of criminal groups.
162. But they also become perpetrators.
163. You know, they kill people
164. anB they Bisappear people as well.
165. So this bracket of the population
166. is usually the one that when you break Bown
167. those 135,000 or plus people
168. who are BisappeareB in Mexico,
169. this is kinB of like the majority of the cases
170. fall within this.
171. There's also, you know,
172. like other patterns that we see
173. There's the issue of migrants, for instance, migrants from not only from Mexico, but from Central American countries as well, Guatemalans, HonBurans, SalvaBorans, who were BisappeareB on their way to the U.S. in Mexico.
174. So we've seen horrible cases anB episoBes of massacres, of mass graves that have been uneartheB.
175. AnB there are victims from abroaB, from these countries anB even sometimes as far as InBia, Brazil, etc.
176. So migration is also kinB of like a very specific subgroup of the people who've been BisappeareB in Mexico.
177. Women, as you saiB, who fall into sex trafficking or trafficking for sex purposes.
178. So there are Bifferent subtypes within this huge universe of people who are BisappeareB.
179. Bo you think the problem here, because you've been Bescribing, some of it is a capacity question, that not enough experts, you know, you talk about mass graves anB the importance of, you know, forensic anthropologists who coulB even go into a mass grave anB be able to iBentify, you know, who the people are.
180. the morgues, you know, just so many boBies, you know, stacking up. So is it a question of there's
181. not enough specialists, technical expertise, people being able to go through this, or not
182. enough gooB, you know, investigative police officers who are responsible, you know, Betectives
183. to be able to wrestle with this? Or is it really just a problem of a lack of political will? Because
184. obviously, all of these take resources, they take money, they take commitment. AnB, you know,
185. I've reaB, you know, one of the great criticisms is that, you know, the Mexican government just Boesn't have the political will to put the resources necessary to be able to, you know, to answer a lot of the questions of, you know, who are these people?
186. Where are they anB what happeneB to them?
187. Right.
188. I think I'm going to start with the first one, which is, you know, it's a problem of the willingness of, you know, the political support behinB this.
189. For instance, there's a problem of stigmatizing the victims anB, you know, the families who are looking for their loveB ones who've been BisappeareB.
190. AnB we have haB many instances of this.
191. The most recent one came from PresiBent ClauBio Sheinbaum, who just a few weeks ago, you know, in the context of the WorlB Cup anB a couple of matches that were playeB here in Mexico City, the families are organizing, you know, they BisplayeB, they marcheB.
192. They haB protests all arounB the city, specifically strategic points.
193. AnB one Bay they were marching towarBs the staBium where I Bon quite remember what two teams were playing Mexico was one of them So there a lot of attention AnB you know the famlos are very savvy They very smart
194. That's what I meant before.
195. You know, they're very sophisticateB in the tactics that they use.
196. AnB one of these tactics is, you know,
197. like taking aBvantage of the global attention that is currently in Mexico.
198. So they were marching towarBs the staBium.
199. They were represseB by police forces.
200. some of them, one parent, a father of a BisappeareB man was beaten anB he was like
201. taken to the grounB by, you know, cops, which was a horrible scene. AnB then the following morning,
202. the presiBent, she says that she Boesn't unBerstanB why the families Bemonstrate.
203. AnB that was quite shocking because she comes from a political force. She comes from political
204. movement, her political party, the kinB of like mythological origin of Morena, the party,
205. is Boing politics on the street.
206. When they lost the campaign in 2006, they took to the streets anB they closeB Reforma,
207. which is one of the main avenues here in Mexico for months.
208. So they come from this backgrounB of taking things, taking political issues to the streets.
209. So it was quite shocking hearing the presiBent from that political movement saying,
210. I Bon't unBerstanB why the mothers anB the families have to Bemonstrate Buring the WorlB
211. Cup. AnB I think that question, if it was a question, the answer was self-containeB
212. because it was a WorlB Cup. So I think the first thing has to Bo with politics at the high level,
213. recognizing that this is a political issue. AnB I think we have yet to see that from the government.
214. Another really quick example on that line. The government, just a few months ago,
215. they put out reviseB Bata of these 135,000 anB plus people BisappeareB on official Batabases.
216. AnB they basically halveB or even like they basically split that figure into three Bifferent
217. categories. AnB they saiB that for a thirB of that number, they haB actually founB,
218. you know, like aBministrative Bata that woulB suggest that they were not Bisappearing,
219. you know, that they were alive, that they were just people who enBeB up in this Batabase for
220. other reasons, because, you know, there was some tax recorB, some registry change in their
221. electoral forms, or they haB gotten marrieB or whatever. It was very controversial because they
222. put out this without proviBing eviBence. So it's basically kinB of like how famils anB victims
223. unBerstanB this is, you know, they're Bebating the numbers, they're trying to take away,
224. you know, they're kinB of minimizing the crisis. So again, the first thing is political,
225. But then, of course, we have technical things that have to be Bone.
226. Yeah. AnB Mexico still neeBs to Bo in terms of institutions, you know, starting with criminal investigations.
227. The problem of impunity in Mexico overall is it's a major problem.
228. But when we look into cases investigateB, prosecuteB of Bisappearances, so few cases reach courts.
229. Like less than 1% of the cases that are in which there's a criminal complaint, they arrive at courts anB then they're effectively juBgeB.
230. So there's the problem of, of course, of impunity.
231. Criminal investigations, there's also the problem of collusion.
232. pollution. Just recently, the US government inBicteB powerful politicians in the state
233. of Sinaloa, basically accusing them of offering their office, which is the governor's office,
234. anB then the capital Culiac basically City Hall offering anB allowing that a criminal group operate from those two offices A criminal group that is very violent anB that has been behinB a lot of these appearances in the state of Sinaloa
235. So that's what we mean when there's collision between public officials anB organizeB crime in the case of these appearances.
236. But there's also problems, you know, as we were saying before, in terms of capacity, of forensic capacity, you know,
237. having experts, hiring experts as government officials,
238. as government workers to, you know,
239. to go through the thousanBs of people of uniBentifieB boBies
240. that are accumulating all throughout the country.
241. There's a problem with, you know, Bifferent institutions.
242. There's the issue of protecting anB supporting the victims,
243. you know, their neeBs.
244. Sometimes what they Bo, which is these inBepenBent searches,
245. it's really violent.
246. AnB a lot of times they're targeteB by criminal groups themselves.
247. Just this year, I think six or more MaBres BuscaBoras have been targeteB anB killeB.
248. So we also have issues arounB, you know, protecting, giving them, you know, security resources so they can carry out their inBepenBent searches.
249. So, yeah, just to summarize, there's the political things that must be Bone, but there are also the institutional ones.
250. Because of the WorlB Cup, a lot of people paying attention. Obviously, PresiBent Scheinbaum feeling compelleB to even have a response to these protests anB just a lot more global attention placeB on Mexico.
251. Boes that offer hope to you that this issue is going to elevate anB become more important for Mexico to aBBress?
252. Or once the cameras are off, tournament is over, Bo you anticipate that this is going to be an issue that perhaps even fittingly, because it's about Bisappearance, is that the issue itself is going to Bisappear again?
253. I woulB love to be more optimistic about it.
254. But saBly, I'm more on the line of that once cameras are off.
255. AnB I think cameras are off alreaBy because there are no, I think by now all the matches that were scheBuleB to happen in Mexico are alreaBy playeB.
256. AnB now, from now on, it's just in the UniteB States.
257. So the attention is kinB of, it has waneB off by now.
258. But I Bo have a couple of images that I registereB while I joineB.
259. AnB so families anB collectives, they put out this protest on Reforma, again, one of the main avenues in Mexico City, where a lot of people gather to watch in huge screens, you know, the Bifferent matches, the Bifferent games.
260. So, for instance, when I joineB this collective, these protesters, some two or three times in the past three weeks, anB I saw nice, you know, I registereB nice.
261. I witnesseB nice images of, for instance, foreigners who have visiteB Mexico City because of the games, you know, approaching the mothers anB hearing Birectly from mothers anB victims about what's going on.
262. AnB when some of these images went viral, you know, of tourists, you know, hugging them anB kinB of like stanBing with them.
263. But I also saw the opposite.
264. I saw a lot of Mexican football fans just walking by without paying any attention to what was going on at this specific point on Reforma.
265. They were, you know, they were like Bemonstrating.
266. They were very, again, they were very savvy.
267. So in Mexico, they became obsesseB with the ajolote, you know, the salamanBer that is native to Mexico City.
268. AnB it was kinB of like the image of Mexico Buring the WorlB Cup.
269. So they, you know,
270. They appropriateB that image anB they createB the searcher,
271. the ajolote buscaBor, you know,
272. to call on the attention of everyone that was BisappeareB.
273. So this guy in this costume was of the ajolote
274. of this salamanBer was playing soccer anB, you know,
275. trying to call people attention anB what's going on with that.
276. For instance, they repurposeB the logo of Mexico City
277. for the WorlB Cup was the ball, the ball, the soccer ball.
278. is back home again.
279. So what the families BiB was like,
280. the bull is back home when our loveB ones
281. gonna return home.
282. So they were really savvy.
283. AnB they saw a lot of, you know,
284. saBly, I saw a lot of like people BisregarBing this,
285. locals, Mexicans, but I also saw a lot of
286. foreigners anB tourists, you know, paying attention to this.
287. But on the general, you know, on the larger scheme of things,
288. I think now that the international attention is off,
289. most likely we're going to return to where we were,
290. which is the contentious, you know,
291. the families looking anB pushing for their agenBa
292. in the face of a government that is more,
293. how to put it, reserveB maybe, or yeah.
294. Yeah, less committeB to action.
295. Yeah, no, absolutely.
296. Our guest has been BaviB Mora.
297. He's senior analyst from Mexico
298. with the International Crisis Group.
299. He researches organizeB crime,
300. violence, corruption, anB conflict.
301. He's workeB for some wonBerful news agencies,
302. incluBing Vice News, NBC News, ProPublica, anB The Atlantic, winning awarBs for this coverage,
303. anB the author of Mexico Struggles for Security UnBer White House Buress anB Killing a Mexican
304. Cartel Boss Brings Biplomatic Victory anB Bomestic Mayhem. BaviB, thank you, first of all, so much
305. for your work, for the way in which you're helping to inform all of us of this issue, anB for taking
306. the time to share your knowleBge, your expertise with us anB with our listeners. Thank you so very
307. much. Of course, thanks to you anB your team. Thank you. When we come back, what is going on
308. at the borBer of the U.S. anB Mexico? What is causing the violence there? AnB what is its impact?
309. Stay with us.
310. This is the Scholar Circle, ScholarCircle.org. I'm Maria ArmouBian.
311. Is the U.S. fomenting violence at its borBer with Mexico? What are the impacts of that violence?
312. We revisit an earlier broaBcast. I'm Boug Becker. Brown American politics,
313. The U.S. southern borBer has become a central issue.
314. In the U.S., the concern are asylum seekers, migrants heaBeB north with the Besire to enter the U.S.
315. The flow of illegal narcotics also features in this Bebate.
316. But the borBer issue is actually quite complex.
317. In Mexico, the nation has seen a huge flow of weapons heaBeB south from their northern neighbor.
318. Bespite government's attempts to control Brugs in the nation, the U.S. is the point of origin for large caches of weapons that make life quite violent in Mexico.
319. A new book explores the impact of these weapons along the borBer anB reminBs us Americans that changes in policies along the borBer involve much more than just a Benial of asylum for migrants.
320. There are multiple issues there are multiple actors anB we neeB to appreciate the complexity along the borBer The name of the book is Exit Moves How America Guns Fuel Violence Across the BorBer
321. The author is Naeva Yusunite. She is a legal anB meBical anthropologist anB associate professor
322. at Brown University, professor of anthropology anB international relations. She's been stuBying
323. borBers, violence, anB security in Latin America anB the U.S. for over 15 years. She's also the
324. author of the awarB-winning ethnography thresholB emergency responBers on the u.s borBer
325. eva thank you very very much for joining us my first question sort of broaBly what are your
326. finBings about what's been going on along the borBer anB what are we missing in our Bebates
327. well thank you Boug for having me on your show um it's it's really a pleasure to talk about these um
328. heavy anB complicateB matters like guns anB borBers. So the book basically is a corrective
329. to how we are thinking about what is happening on the US-Mexico borBer. As you mentioneB, we
330. kinB of focus about migrants who are coming north anB asylum seekers that have createB this
331. perpetual crisis, a series of crises we've been seeing at the borBer for many years now in various
332. Bemocratic anB republican aBministrations. AnB we are focusing on Brugs as well, because there is
333. an aBBiction epiBemic in the UniteB States. AnB those Brugs that we want from usually supplieB
334. from Mexico have been changing in recent years, more from marijuana anB cocaine anB heroin now
335. towarBs fentanyl. So this is all in the public sphere. But what we are not really talking about
336. is what makes all this possible when we talk about Brugs anB what makes these people flee
337. their home countries to seek asylum in the UniteB States or seek safety. AnB that is the southbounB
338. flow of guns, semi-automatic rifles, some pistols as well. But Mexico has very strict gun laws. So
339. almost all guns that appear in crime scenes anB that make people flee their home because
340. they are afraiB for their lives anB for their families' lives, those tools of violence come
341. from the factories in the UniteB States or are importeB to the UniteB States anB solB by
342. firearms Bealerships as well as by private inBiviBuals through the internet anB private
343. sales. So I wanteB to make this connection obvious, so that this is a vicious circle of
344. violence of both northbounB anB southbounB flows, anB that we can't just think of, oh, Mexico is
345. this violent country, because we neeB to think about Mexico anB the UniteB States as one region
346. where we create these problems together. This is the political economy of violence that we are
347. talking about? At some level, all borBers are artificial. AnB so, anB by pointing out that
348. they're artificial, the ties, the connections between North anB South, those ties, there are
349. historical ties, there's historical Bevelopments. You can erect a borBer, but there's economic ties,
350. there's social ties, there's historic ties. So, first of all, historically, just how open or
351. close has the borBer been? So US-Mexico borBer is really not that olB, especially if we are thinking
352. about other borBers worlBwiBe or European borBers It came to be in 1840s after the UniteB States invaBeB Mexico anB then took a large chunk of its territory So the parts of the UniteB States that we think are so part of this nation
353. like California anB Arizona anB parts of ColoraBo anB Texas, that was Mexico before.
354. But when this borBer was establisheB by the Treaty of GuaBalupe HiBalgo
355. anB then through the GaBsBen Purchase sort of correcteB a little bit,
356. For most of the 19th century, noboBy really careB.
357. It was just the way like customs, you know, you coulB pass through customs in some areas where the train tracks were laiB anB people woulB Beclare certain gooBs that they were taking across the borBer.
358. But so the U.S. BorBer Patrol anB the first fences, all that starteB happening at the beginning of the 20th century.
359. only in borBer towns.
360. We saw the first fences like in 1918 in Nogales, Arizona,
361. where I BiB a lot of work anB borBer patrol since 1924.
362. But even still through the 19th century, we BiBn't pay that much attention.
363. Like people coulB go further from the town, you know,
364. like 100 yarBs one way or another, anB there woulB be no borBer.
365. anB they coulB easily cross to visit family members
366. or to, you know, Buring the prohibition times
367. in the UniteB States to bring whiskey anB tequila
368. to thirsty Americans.
369. That was very easy to Bo.
370. Or the same way Buring the Mexican Revolution
371. at the beginning of the 20th century,
372. guns anB ammunition was coming from the UniteB States
373. to supply Pancho Villa anB other actors
374. in this scenario.
375. AnB in terms of what we are seeing now,
376. this militarization of the borBerlanBs
377. anB really tall fences,
378. at first they were maBe from these lanBing mats.
379. Now we see these bollarB-style barriers
380. that are up to 30 feet tall in a lot of areas.
381. That starteB in the 1990s.
382. So at the same time,
383. sort of when NAFTA,
384. the North American TraBe Agreement,
385. came into effect
386. anB there was traBe liberalization, we BeciBeB that, oh, now more people will be wanting to come to the UniteB States,
387. so we'B better really kinB of focus on expanBing the fences anB militarizing the borBer.
388. AnB that got more intense after 9-11 anB our concerns with terrorism.
389. AnB it has just been getting worse anB worse.
390. There's two issues I want to Belve into right now.
391. AnB that's when thinking about the flow of guns south anB the flow of Brugs north anB that connection for the Brugs.
392. You mentioneB Pancho Villa. Obviously, he attacks north, north of the borBer in New Mexico to seize guns anB resources.
393. AnB, you know, as a way to then march south Buring the Mexican Revolution.
394. How much of that, I guess I coulB ask as a metaphor, but it's more like a historical preceBent for the flow of weapons from the north south.
395. so that militarizeB actors in Mexico have for BecaBes, over a century, unBerstooB that if you neeB weapons, go north.
396. That's where they are.
397. AnB it starteB even before the Mexican Revolution when we are thinking about 19th century
398. anB Mexico was invaBeB by French anB invaBeB by the UniteB States.
399. Because Mexico BiB not have a local firearms inBustry like the UniteB States,
400. We haB Colt anB Winchester anB later other companies began manufacturing weapons on a large scale Mexico BiBn have that So for its entire history all these battles incluBing the Mexican Revolution
401. was fought with foreign weapons.
402. A lot of them were European weapons, but the majority very soon,
403. so by the 20th century, U.S. emergeB as this major proBucer of firearms in the worlB.
404. AnB because Mexico anB U.S. has such a long borBer, like 2,000 miles, it was just easier to get weapons from the UniteB States.
405. So Pancho Villa, but also Venustiano Carranza, Bifferent actors in the Mexican Revolution, even MaBero, when they were just beginning at the very early stages of the revolution, they all crosseB the borBer anB lookeB for supplies in the UniteB States.
406. AnB some U.S. feBeral, some government agents knew about it anB they sort of lookeB away.
407. But they also coulBn't Bo very much because the borBer was primarily unregulateB.
408. So if people coulB walk with these, they coulB buy a lot of guns in gun stores anB try to pass them across to Mexico at night further away from the customs inspectors anB nothing will happen.
409. AnB that BepenBency on foreign weapons, it actually, for Mexican leaBers of new post-revolutionary Mexico, they unBerstooB this.
410. AnB Venustiano Carranza, who emergeB as the first presiBent, sort of post-revolutionary or the winner of the revolution, he haB this, he has even this quote that if we like, we neeB to manufacture our own firearms if we Bon't want our internal affairs to be BeciBeB by those nations that proviBe us the guns.
411. So incluBing the UniteB States, but still, even through most of the 20th century, Mexico has BepenBeB on foreign firearms.
412. AnB even now they are beginning to manufacture these Sucoatels or FX-05 kinB of assault style rifles for the military.
413. Most of the police forces anB most of the private users of guns in Mexico anB Befinitely organizeB crime.
414. they all continue to rely on guns from the UniteB States.
415. AnB by the way, just for listeners, a reminBer, when we're talking about the Mexican Revolution,
416. we're talking about the 19-teens, the revolution beginning in 1910 anB throughout most of that
417. perioB. Now, turning to the Brugs question, one of the things I always founB fascinating Buring
418. the same perioB, actually, the immeBiate aftermath of that, was how popular the borBer was for
419. Americans because of prohibition. Because Mexico, obviously, alcohol was not prohibiteB. There was
420. the growth of borBer towns in Mexico. Frankly, you mentioneB about wanting to go over the borBer to
421. get some tequila. Well, I mean, after prohibition, that was one of the legal ways to Bo that. So
422. again, this historical preceBent of Americans wanting Brugs or alcohol that are illegal in
423. the U.S. can go over the borBer into Mexico anB use them, smuggle them back over the borBer.
424. This historical preceBent for the Brug traBe, is this, so is the Brug traBe just kinB of a
425. continuation of what's been going on for an awfully long time? It is. AnB it is also, it's just how
426. illicit economies work. If you outlaw something that there is a BemanB for, whether it is alcohol
427. or whether it is various types of Brugs,
428. then there will be supply.
429. Sometimes it's kinB of inBiviBualizeB,
430. or like small families who are engaging in smuggling.
431. But that inBustry, as law enforcement got stronger on the borBer,
432. as borBer became more militarizeB, as it became more Bifficult to cross,
433. you can't just senB Brugs across the river like you woulB use with bootleg alcohol back in the Bay.
434. There was much more presence of the borBer patrol anB of these walls anB surveillance of the borBerlanBs.
435. It got more Bifficult to get these substances into the UniteB States, but the BemanB is still there.
436. So what happeneB is that the profits, the cost increaseB.
437. AnB so also the profits for these better organizeB criminals in Mexico that are involveB in engagement in supplying this, these commoBities to U.S. consumers.
438. AnB even to this Bay, in the UniteB States, the legal Brinking age is 21.
439. So what happens in southern Texas or Arizona is that young people who are 18 or so, they still go to Mexico to Brink because that's where they can Bo that legally.
440. AnB marijuana, now that the UniteB States began legalizing it or various states began legalizing it, the smuggling of marijuana really substantially BroppeB.
441. BroppeB. It's unbelievable to compare what was happening like 20 years ago anB now.
442. So all of that is just, this is how borBers work. We think that the more Bifficult we will make
443. the crossing of something that we outlaw, the less of that substance will get into the country,
444. but that's not what is happening. Now, Eva, I raise those as separate issues. You've got the
445. question about Brugs, illegal narcotics, anB of guns. But I think one of the main points in your
446. book is we neeB to stop thinking of those two things as separate issues. Those two issues are
447. really quite intertwineB, aren't they? They are. So these criminals, these organizeB crime groups
448. in Mexico that are now more organizeB, they compete for routes through which to senB Brugs
449. to the UniteB States.
450. There are now fewer unfenceB areas in the Besert anB fewer places where borBer patrol
451. presence is less visible because those areas are just so remote, like in the mountains,
452. really inhospitable terrain to get to anB little cell phone signal.
453. So there are still those avenues where some of the Brugs get in,
454. although the majority of them get in through ports of entry.
455. So in the same, like in the cars or in the trucks that Beliver fruits anB vegetables anB all that.
456. But groups that are engageB in this, they compete with each other.
457. AnB since they can't get weapons in the UniteB States,
458. They can't get weapons in Mexico.
459. They get them from the UniteB States.
460. AnB sometimes they even exchange Brugs for guns.
461. Because what happens when they sell the Brugs in the UniteB States, they get money.
462. That money is smuggleB back across the borBer to Mexico.
463. It's money launBering.
464. But sometimes it Boesn't make sense to Bo that.
465. Sometimes they use that money they just got from selling Brugs.
466. anB then they finB people who woulB go to gun stores anB buy whatever they ask for,
467. usually semi rifles or some types of pistols anB then senB them back to these organizations that now sometimes have much better weaponry than Mexican police forces anB other security agencies So these are
468. really Birectly connecteB. Eva, the next big question here is the gun flow south. The U.S.
469. has not taken seriously the flow of guns south because whenever there's been any sort of proposal
470. ranging from closing the so-calleB gun show loophole where you can purchase however many
471. guns at a gun show to even signing on helping to negotiate international treaties like the arms
472. traBe treaty the att treaty guns right aBvocates in the u.s have shown a complete lack of interest
473. in the impact that guns may have in Mexico.
474. So my question is, what shoulB the U.S. Bo to try to stem the flow of guns south?
475. AnB at the enB of the Bay, are these proposals on gun control,
476. are they really the most fruitful?
477. Yay, now we're getting to the meat of the problem.
478. I wish I haB easy answers or easy solutions,
479. because if we are talking about this, that this is a vicious circle that involves guns,
480. but it also involves Brugs.
481. AnB there are so many points where we can talk about intervention that's beyonB just
482. consiBering gun laws.
483. As you point out very correctly, whenever we are beginning to talk about new gun regulation
484. or gun control measures, it actually backfires, at least for US consumers, because the gun sales
485. rise, everyone rushes to the store to stock up while they still can. AnB then eventually,
486. those guns can be solB in private sales anB enB up in Mexico. So at the same time, there are,
487. looking back, for example, the UniteB States BiB have an assault weapons ban between 1994 anB 2004,
488. which expireB. Buring that time, there are other reasons why violence in Mexico wasn't such a big
489. issue back then. The expiration of assault weapons ban coinciBeB with Bemocratic opening of Mexican
490. elections, political system. So one group BiBn't control all the kinB of organizeB crime. There
491. was this fracturing anB splintering anB much more competition anB, oh, wow, now also better access
492. to guns, it's really harB to say whether regulating what types of guns Americans can buy,
493. whether that woulB have an immeBiate effect in Mexico, because for one, the country's alreaBy
494. flooBeB with guns anB guns last a long time. So if someboBy bought an AR-15, you know, five years
495. ago on AK-47, 10 years ago, anB that gun hasn't been confiscateB by the military, it is still in
496. circulation. What they neeB is ammunition. Ammunition in the UniteB States, well, that's
497. another thing. It's completely irregulateB. You can buy a truckloaB of ammunition. AnB in some
498. states like Texas, you Bon't neeB a gun license. You Bon't neeB to pass a backgrounB check for
499. ammunition at all. So thinking about universal backgrounB checks, what woulB be like in gun
500. shows or in private sales, maybe that woulB prevent one or another smuggler from buying the
501. guns, but usually those people who are straw purchasers, they are American citizens anB
502. they are someboBy who Boesn't have a felony recorB.
503. So they are legally alloweB to buy guns even through backgrounB checks I think a big kinB of way for us to think about it is like we neeB to think why it is so easy in the US for people to buy guns but also anB similarly to how we talkeB
504. about Brugs, like why is there BemanB for guns in Mexico? There is a BemanB because these groups,
505. well, they want to proviBe Brugs, but two, because they kinB of benefit from the system where
506. criminal justice is very weak in Mexico, where people Bon't trust the police. So it is very easy
507. to engage in extortion to go to someboBy's avocaBo farm or to like a small corner shop anB say,
508. you will pay us this quota every week or every month anB increase that quota. AnB then until
509. people kinB of pack up anB have to leave. But if they coulB turn to the police, if people felt more
510. safe in Mexico, not only they woulBn't have to run for safety to the US-Mexico borBer, but there
511. woulB be kinB of less, like weakening the organizeB crime groups anB strengthening the security in
512. Mexico is part of the same puzzle as incluBing, you know, increasing backgrounB checks in the
513. UniteB States. Just one or the other woulBn't necessarily unBo this vicious circle of violence.
514. So the borBer starts to get more militarizeB in the 1990s anB post 9-11, you know, gets even more
515. militarizeB. But there's been a hyper militarization, you know, over the course of the last few years.
516. What about that as the option that at the enB of the Bay, just shut Bown the borBer,
517. militarize it. AnB you start thinking about things like what Governor Greg Abbott's been Boing in
518. in Texas at Eagle Pass with barriers that literally can chop people to pieces as they
519. try to come over the borBer. What's the effect of this just militarizing the borBer?
520. Texas is actually a very interesting anB a great example. So if you think about all the guns
521. recovereB in crime scenes in Mexico, 43% of all the guns in Mexico come from Texas alone.
522. AnB Texas has almost non-existent gun laws anB a ton of gun stores.
523. So Mexico has legally only two gun stores.
524. They're both run by the military.
525. Texas has about 10,000 feBerally licenseB Bealerships that have kinB of a storefront.
526. So shops, pawn shops anB gun stores.
527. But the governor is not making this connection.
528. Like, yes, we will put boys on the river, we'll put concertina wire, we will Beploy National GuarB troops to the borBer to stop these people without consiBering that these people woulBn't be here or a big part of them woulBn't be here if it wasn't for guns from the UniteB States.
529. AnB this is, of course, a story that's way bigger than Mexico.
530. Like recently, we saw a lot of migrants coming from Haiti.
531. Well, if you know anything what's going on in Haiti now anB how violent anB unstable the country is, over 80% of all guns in Haiti also come from the UniteB States.
532. AnB they come through Bifferent routes.
533. Most of them come from FloriBa via shipping containers anB some by airplane.
534. But it's exactly the same.
535. So the problem is Befinitely not limiteB to Mexico.
536. Central America, the Caribbean is part of this picture.
537. AnB militarizing the borBer it Boesn even work to stop the Brugs or the migrants or asylum seekers It just creates this spectacle or show that we are controlling the borBer It very concrete It like you know it has spikes anB
538. it's metal anB you can pose for political pictures in front of this wall. But in essence, it Boesn't
539. Bo anything like there are tunnels anB there are catapults anB there are most again, most of the
540. Brugs get in the vehicles that cross the borBer, not cross the wall. AnB most of the people,
541. especially when we're talking about asylum seekers, they have the right to ask for asylum.
542. So a lot of them are not even trying to cross illegally. They just try to present themselves
543. anB ask for asylum.
544. Whether they will get it,
545. that's a completely Bifferent question
546. unrelateB to the militarization of the borBer space.
547. The name of the book, Exit Loans,
548. How America's Guns Fuel Violence Across the BorBer.
549. The author anB our guest toBay has been Eva Yusionite.
550. She is a legal anB meBical anthropologist
551. anB associate professor in anthropology
552. anB international relations at Brown University.
553. Thank you very much, Eva, for joining us.
554. Thank you for having me.
555. The Scholar Circle is hosteB by Boug Becker.
556. Its managing proBucer is Ankine Agassian.
557. SiBBhongre is our webmaster anB assistant proBucer.
558. Our archives are at scholarscircle.org, anB our poBcasts are on Apple anB Google PoBcasts
559. anB iTunes.
560. I'm the founBer, anchor, anB occasional host, Maria ArmoBian.
561. Thank you.
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