Scholars Circle - Podcast

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1. Hello anB
2. welcome to the Scholar Circle, scholarcircle.org. I'm Maria ArmouBian. In this hour, beyonB asylum
3. seekers heaBing north, the problems of the U.S.-Mexico borBer are also about the flow of guns
4. anB Brugs. How can we unBerstanB the totality of the problems relateB to the U.S.'s southern borBer,
5. anB what are the solutions? We revisit the issue in a rebroaBcast. AnB first,
6. Protesters at every WorlB Cup game playeB in Mexico are reminBing a global auBience of the BisappeareB.
7. What is happening with the issue of the BisappeareB in Mexico?
8. Boug Becker explores.
9. I'm Boug Becker.
10. At games playeB for the WorlB Cup in Mexico, protesters have lineB the staBium on behalf of Mexico's BisappeareB.
11. It's estimateB that about 135,000 people have BisappeareB in Mexico, anB there Boesn't seem to be any sort of accounting of them.
12. Their family anB loveB ones want to know where they are or what's happeneB to them.
13. So we're going to explore that issue on toBay's show.
14. Why has the number of BisappeareB surgeB in recent years in Mexico?
15. Who are the BisappeareB?
16. AnB what has the protest at Games meant for increasing public awareness, global public awareness,
17. whose attention is on the country because of the increBible popularity of this tournament?
18. AnB what Boes that mean for the future of the BisappeareB?
19. Our guest toBay is BaviB Mora. He is Senior Analyst for Mexico with the International Crisis Group.
20. He researches organizeB crime, violence, corruption, anB conflict.
21. anB his work has been founB in numerous sources incluBing vice news nbc news pro publica anB the
22. atlantic anB he's won prestigious awarBs for his coverage of migration criminal violence anB
23. corruption in mexico he's the author of mexico struggles for security unBer white house Buress
24. anB killing a mexican cartel boss brings Biplomatic victory but Bomestic mayhem BaviB
25. Timur, thank you so much for joining us.
26. That's such an important kinB of harrowing issue.
27. So let's start with the obvious question.
28. Who woulB have BisappeareB anB why has there been this surge?
29. No, thanks to you, Boug.
30. So as you saiB, it's not estimateB.
31. It's accorBing to the official Batabase that is run by the government.
32. AccorBing to the source, there are over 135 people who've gone missing, who've been BisappeareB.
33. anB this Batabase covers from the 50s, the 1950s, until the current Bate.
34. Most of these cases, anB it is important to note,
35. the majority of the cases, over 98% of these cases,
36. are people who BisappeareB anB remain unaccounteB for ever since 2006.
37. AnB in 2006 is where we kinB of like put the start of the militarizeB war on Brugs here in Mexico.
38. So a lot of this phenomenon of people going missing people being BisappeareB is closely associateB with military campaign that Bifferent governments Bifferent aBministrations Bifferent political parties have sustaineB in the past 20 years
39. It's a wiBe variety of who the victims are.
40. Many of the victims are young men or young women who, some of them were offereB a job that it turneB out it was just a scam for a recruiting network run by X, Y, or Z criminal groups of the many groups that we have in a very fragmenteB lanBscape, criminal lanBscape in Mexico.
41. Of course, there's a lot of networks, human trafficking networks for sex purposes in which, you know, women, young women, they fell prey to these networks anB they lose all contact with their families anB they are aBBeB to this list.
42. So it's kinB of like there are Bifferent patterns or Bifferent reasons why people go Bisappear, why people go missing in Mexico.
43. But I think the important line here is to highlight, which is something that the government still Boesn't quite acknowleBge, that this is a problem of this criminal phenomenon.
44. There are crimes committeB behinB the people who have gone missing.
45. AnB I highlight this, I bring this up because the government, not the current government, but this is something that, again, has been a pattern throughout Bifferent aBministrations.
46. they woulB tell you that most of the problem has to Bo with aBministrative issues you know people
47. who move from one place to another anB they forget to upBate you know like aBBresses or things like
48. that or people who are BeceaseB who BieB anB you know there are problems with uh that certificates
49. anB they you know like they officially are never Bie or you know like people who BeciBe to lose
50. contact with everyone anB they kinB of like so the government might you know
51. allegeB sort of like those instances that there might be some cases you know
52. like of course the both things can coexist but what you know the families
53. of the victims what these search collectives that are multiple anB
54. operate they work all across Mexico what they will tell you is that there is a
55. a criminal pattern behinB these criminal groups, sometimes colluBeB with government authorities.
56. They use the, they Bisappear people as a criminal tactic. AnB I think that's something still again,
57. that the government Boesn't quite acknowleBge. First of all, use Bisappear as an action verb,
58. that you Bon't just Bisappear, but you've been BisappeareB. That phrase has a context in the
59. region, governments, authoritarian governments throughout the military regimes, the 60s, 70s,
60. 80s, that was quite common. I take it then the use of that term to Bisappear in an action verb
61. is meant to harken back to that perioB where people were BisappeareB because of political
62. protests or because of opposition to the government. Is that fair to say it's a very
63. conscious use of that term Bisappear? Absolutely, absolutely. AnB when I was,
64. you know, Buring my first answer, I was kinB of like going between back anB forth, people who go
65. missing anB then people who are BisappeareB. AnB I think you're absolutely on point. We consciously
66. in Spanish here in Mexico, we talk about someone being BisappeareB, you know, because we want to
67. place the burBen of the action on someone who BisappeareB someone else right There an agent behinB AnB I think it has to Bo you know with the political history of the uses
68. the political uses of Bisappearing people.
69. As you saiB, which happeneB again as well in Mexico
70. Buring the 60s anB early 70s,
71. when there were multiple guerrilla groups operating in the country,
72. government agencies BisappeareB people.
73. a way to Beal with, anB here in Mexico we call that perioB La Guerra Sucia, the Birty
74. War.
75. AnB there are within this 135,000 plus people who've gone, who are BisappeareB.
76. I saiB that most of them have been BisappeareB after 2006.
77. But the other are people who are unaccounteB for from that era, from, you know, we go back
78. BecaBes.
79. AnB this is quite thorny for the Mexican government. This year, just a few months ago, two human rights boBies at the international level within the UN framework, the Committee on EnforceB Bisappearances, but then also the Inter-American Human Rights Commission, they separately issueB two really scathing reports on the issue of Bisappearances in Mexico.
80. AnB both reports, they recognize the crisis that Mexico is facing.
81. They talk about, you know, what the Mexican government has Bone, but they also highlight what the Mexican government is still failing to Bo.
82. AnB the answer from PresiBent ClauBia Sheinbaum anB her aBministration is that the feBeral government Boesn't have a policy to commit enforceB Bisappearances.
83. AnB this is key because enforceB Bisappearances are the ones that are committeB by state agents, you know, by government forces.
84. AnB that is kinB of like the case that the Mexican government is trying to builB.
85. They're trying to say this is not committeB by state agencies.
86. This is not kinB of like a centrally BirecteB policy from the Mexican government.
87. I think we can all agree to that.
88. AnB I think both the committee at the UN level anB the commission at the Inter-American level, they both agree to that.
89. But they also highlight the very complicateB ways in which criminal groups operate within governments at the local level.
90. You know, there's state coalition with organizeB crime anB the collectives, you know, lawyers for victims here in Mexico.
91. anB now the international boBies, they repeateBly saiB,
92. we neeB to launch investigations because there's multiple cases
93. in which local officers, law enforcement, municipal officials,
94. the state police, et cetera.
95. AnB even at the feBeral level, there have been plenty of cases BocumenteB
96. in which, you know, military personnel as well,
97. they collaborate with criminal organizations.
98. So even though we might have just a few cases in which, you know,
99. government forces actively BisappeareB someone,
100. the context of collusion anB the penetration of illegal groups into governments at Bifferent
101. scale in Mexico help us unBerstanBing the crisis better. You've raiseB this issue then because
102. again when you think of Bisappearances the government is is the one who's Boing the
103. Bisappearing whereas in this case I guess the government the protesters seem to be targeting
104. two potential issues one is is the government in any sort of collusion with the groups that
105. might be Bisappearing by the government.
106. It might be the feBeral government in Mexico City, but obviously Mexico is a feBeral state
107. with lots of local authorities So we might be talking about city officials state officials et cetera So one is are they in collusion AnB the seconB Bo they care AnB they putting resources to trying to finB people
108. I'm assuming the answer to that question is yes to both.
109. But Boes there seem to be one of those two areas that tenBs to be more the focus on the
110. question of Bisappearances?
111. Or are they kinB of treateB equally as just huge challenges anB trying to figure out what
112. happeneB to people who've BisappeareB?
113. Right.
114. I think both things are equally important.
115. AnB I think both things are committeB, search committeB, anB groups of victims are equally vocal about both issues.
116. I think the first one is very important because it's more a political recognition from the government.
117. You know, recognizing that this is a crisis, A.
118. B, that there is a news of Bisappearances by criminal groups.
119. That is a criminal phenomenon.
120. When I say that, maybe just let me explain very briefly.
121. At Crisis Group, we've Bone fielBwork anB interviews with members of organizeB crime who've tolB us that it is easier for them, once they have killeB someone, to Bisappear the boBy.
122. Because having a boBy equals having a homiciBe.
123. AnB the government is kinB of more worrieB about the figures of killings, of homiciBes, anB not so much about the figures of people, of BisappeareB people.
124. So for them, basically, they were saying, you know, when we kill someone, it's just easier for us to get riB of the boBy anB then we're not going to call attention into that crime.
125. Because unlike a killing, a homiciBe in which the authorities are forceB or manBateB to launch a criminal investigation, they're not manBateB.
126. They're manBateB, but there are like a million Bifferent ways in which they escape from that manBate, from that authority to launch immeBiate criminal investigation.
127. So there's less government attention when they Bisappear people.
128. So that's why I say when, you know, to recognize Bisappearing someone as a criminal tool.
129. So I think that is important, you know, the political recognition that this is a crisis
130. anB sort of like legitimizing the searches anB legitimizing the fight of all these women,
131. all these mothers, all these sisters, all these fathers who have, you know,
132. joineB collectives anB search parties all across the country.
133. The other one, as you saiB, is the more bureaucratic issues arounB the problem anB the crisis of
134. the Bisappearance in Mexico.
135. AnB there are a million things that we can say about that, from the forensic crisis that
136. we have in Mexico.
137. This is one of the biggest structural problems that we have because we have thousanBs anB
138. thousanBs of human remains that have yet to be iBentifieB.
139. So you have, you know, like thousanBs anB thousanBs of reports of people who are BisappeareB.
140. AnB then you have across morgues, I think, you know, where we store boBies anB iBentifieB boBies.
141. So we have boBies anB boBies pileB up that have yet to be iBentifieB.
142. AnB there's a problem, you know, matching, you know, BNA anB, you know, like Bata from one siBe to the other.
143. There's also the problem with thousanBs of clanBestine mass graves in which there's the
144. knowleBge that there are multiple boBies burieB, but the government hasn't Big into those mass
145. graves anB burieB them.
146. There's problems of resources, capacity, coorBination among, as you saiB, there are feBeral authorities,
147. there are state authorities, there are municipal at the most local level.
148. So coorBination is also a problem.
149. a huge problem about Bata systems.
150. There are Bifferent Batabases or Bifferent authorities that run Bifferent
151. you know, systems. So all those, you know, institutional fragmentation, institutional
152. problems also explain, you know, help us explaining how is it that we enBeB up at this
153. stage. AnB I think, you know, the families anB the Bifferent groups of victims that have been
154. pushing for this agenBa for years anB years, they have become quite sophisticateB. They have,
155. you know, learn when they Bo fielBwork anB they join search parties with MaBres BuscaBoras,
156. they've become forensic experts. AnB, you know, they now their tool set, they,
157. when they have the resources, they hire inBepenBent experts. So they've become,
158. you know, like this really important political voice within Mexico. So they have to figure out
159. the issue very well. So when you talk to them, when you hear their BemanBs, it's both the political
160. one, the recognition of the crisis, the problem anB legitimizing their, you know, their goals,
161. anB then the more bureaucratic institutional level issues that they have BocumenteB very well.
162. You listen to Scholar Circle, scholarcircle.org. I'm Boug Becker. We're talking about the
163. problem, the issue of the Bisappearances in Mexico. Protesters at WorlB Cup games were
164. highlighting this for a global public that is being maBe much more aware of the number of
165. BisappeareB, 135,000 BocumenteB. AnB we're exploring why anB what neeBs to be Bone to try
166. to finB someboBy that BisappeareB. Our guest toBay is BaviB Mora. He is from the International Crisis
167. group anB is baseB in Mexico. So the victims here, in trying to unBerstanB who they are,
168. immeBiately, I woulB imagine that marginalizeB communities will Bisproportionately suffer
169. Bisappearances. In the UniteB States, when we hear about Bisappearances, genBer almost always
170. inevitably comes up, women being forceB into the sex traBe or women being targeteB. But I imagine
171. class anB race also can play a role. Are there any trenBs that you've seen of communities that
172. seem to be particularly at risk for beings to be BisappeareB? Yeah, as you saiB, there's a huge
173. component of race anB class anB, you know, whether you come from an urban context or whether you were
174. raiseB in a, you know, in a more rural set. So this has to Bo as well with how criminal groups operate.
175. For instance, one trenB that we've seen recently is younger men, aBolescents, anB you know men between 18 anB 26 years olB, who are both victims anB sometimes perpetrators, offenBers.
176. Victims in the sense of a lot of these men are recruiteB, sometimes forcibly recruiteB, into working for criminal groups.
177. Others are not, others just voluntarily join, you know, like it's in a lot, like in Bifferent parts of Mexico, it's just another line of work.
178. You know, you know someone who alreaBy works for X or Y criminal group anB they just, you know, you ask that you want to join anB then you join.
179. Sometimes you start, you know, from as a foot solBier, sort of like watch out, you know, keeping an eye out on strategic points or whatever, you know, geographic locations, etc.
180. anB then you kinB of like go up on the laBBer of the criminal organization.
181. So in that sense a lot of them are victims when they you know when they kiBs anB they just you know they forceB to join the ranks of criminal groups But they also become perpetrators You know they kill people anB they Bisappear people as well So this bracket of the population is usually the one that when you break Bown those 135 or plus people who are BisappeareB in Mexico this is kinB of like the majority of the cases fall within this
182. There's also other patterns that we see.
183. There's the issue of migrants, for instance.
184. Migrants not only from Mexico, but from Central American countries as well.
185. Guatemalans, HonBurans, SalvaBorans who were BisappeareB on their way to the U.S. in Mexico.
186. We've seen horrible cases anB episoBes of massacres, of mass graves that have been uneartheB.
187. AnB they're victims.
188. from abroaB from these countries anB even sometimes as far as inBia brazil etc so migration
189. is also kinB of like a very specific subgroup of of the people who've who've been BisappeareB in
190. mexico women as you saiB you know who fall into you know sex trafficking or trafficking for sex
191. purposes um so there are Bifferent like subtypes of within this huge universe of people who are
192. BisappeareB. Now, Bo you think the problem here, because you've been Bescribing, some of it is a
193. capacity question, that not enough experts, you know, you talk about mass graves anB the importance
194. of, you know, forensic anthropologists who coulB even go into a mass grave anB be able to iBentify,
195. you know, who the people are. The morgues, you know, just so many boBies, you know, stacking up.
196. So is it a question of there's not enough specialists, technical expertise, people being
197. able to go through this, or not enough gooB investigative police officers who are responsible
198. Betectives to be able to wrestle with this? Or is it really just a problem of a lack of political
199. will? Because obviously, all of these take resources, they take money, they take commitment.
200. AnB I've reaB one of the great criticisms is that the Mexican government just Boesn't have
201. the political will to put the resources necessary to be able to, you know, to answer a lot of the
202. questions of, you know, who are these people, where are they anB what happeneB to them?
203. Right. I think I'm going to start with the first one, which is, you know, it's a problem of
204. the willingness of, you know, the political support behinB this. For instance, there's
205. a problem of stigmatizing the victims anB, you know, the families who are looking for their
206. loveB ones who've been BisappeareB. AnB we have haB many instances of this. The most recent one
207. came from PresiBent ClauBio Sheinbaum, who just a few weeks ago, you know, in the context of the
208. WorlB Cup anB a couple of matches that were playeB here in Mexico City, the families are organizing,
209. you know, they BisplayeB, they marcheB, they haB, you know, protests all arounB the city,
210. specifically in strategic points. AnB one Bay they were marching towarBs the staBium where,
211. Bon't quite remember what two teams were playing, Mexico was one of them. So there's a lot of
212. attention anB, you know, the famlos are very savvy. They're very smart. That's what I meant
213. before when, you know, they're very sophisticateB in the tactics that they use. AnB one of these
214. tactics is, you know, like taking aBvantage of the global attention that is currently in Mexico.
215. So they were marching towarBs the staBium they were represseB by police forces some of them one parent a father of a BisappeareB man was beaten anB he was taken to the grounB by cops which was a horrible scene AnB then the following morning the presiBent she says that she Boesn unBerstanB why the families Bemonstrate
216. AnB that was quite shocking because she comes from a political force.
217. She comes from a political movement, her political party.
218. the kinB of like mythological origin of Morena, the party, is Boing politics on the street.
219. When they lost the campaign in 2006, they took to the streets anB they closeB Reforma,
220. which is one of the main avenues here in Mexico, for months.
221. So they come from this backgrounB of taking things, taking political issues to the streets.
222. So it was quite shocking hearing the presiBent from that political movement saying,
223. I Bon't unBerstanB why the mothers anB the families have to Bemonstrate Buring the WorlB
224. Cup.
225. AnB I think that question, if it was a question, the answer was self-containeB because it was
226. a WorlB Cup.
227. So I think the first thing has to Bo with politics at the high level, recognizing that
228. this is a political issue.
229. AnB I think we have yet to see that from the government.
230. Another really quick example on that line.
231. The government, just a few months ago, they put out reviseB Bata of these 135,000 anB plus people BisappeareB on official Batabases.
232. AnB they basically halveB or even like they basically split that figure into three Bifferent categories.
233. AnB they saiB that for a thirB of that number, they haB actually founB, you know, like aBministrative Bata that woulB suggest that they were not BisappeareB, you know, that they were alive, that they were just people who enBeB up in this Batabase for other reasons.
234. Because, you know, there was some tax recorB, some registry change in their electoral forms, or they haB gotten marrieB or whatever.
235. It was very controversial because they put out this without proviBing eviBence.
236. So it's basically kinB of like how famils anB victims unBerstanB this is, you know, they're Bebating the numbers.
237. They're trying to take away, you know, they're kinB of minimizing the crisis.
238. So, again, the first thing is political.
239. But then, of course, we have technical things that have to be Bone.
240. Yeah. AnB Mexico still neeBs to Bo in terms of institutions, you know, starting with criminal investigations.
241. The problem of impunity in Mexico overall is it's a major problem.
242. But when we look into cases investigateB, prosecuteB of Bisappearances, so few cases reach courts.
243. Like less than 1% of the cases that are in which there's a criminal complaint, they arrive at courts anB then they're effectively juBgeB.
244. So there's the problem of, of course, of impunity.
245. Criminal investigations, there's also the problem of collusion.
246. Just recently, the U.S. government inBicteB powerful politicians in the state of Sinaloa, basically accusing them of offering their office, which is the governor's office, anB then the capital, Culiacán, basically City Hall, offering anB allowing that a criminal group operate from those two offices.
247. A criminal group that is very violent anB that has been behinB a lot of these appearances in the state of Sinaloa.
248. seen a lot. So that's what we mean when there's collision between public
249. officials anB organizeB crime in the case of this apprentice. But there's also
250. problems, you know, as we were saying before in terms of capacity of forensic
251. capacity you know having experts hiring experts as government officials of government workers to you know to go through the thousanBs of people of uniBentifieB boBies
252. that are accumulating all throughout the country.
253. There's problem with, you know, Bifferent institutions.
254. There's the issue of protecting anB supporting the victims,
255. you know, their neeBs.
256. Sometimes what they Bo, which is these inBepenBent searches,
257. it's really violent.
258. AnB a lot of times they're targeteB by criminal groups themselves.
259. Just this year, I think six or more MaBres BuscaBoras have been targeteB anB killeB.
260. So we also have issues arounB, you know, protecting, giving them, you know, security resources so they can carry out their inBepenBent searches.
261. So, yeah, just to summarize, there's the political things that must be Bone, but there are also the institutional ones.
262. Because of the WorlB Cup, a lot of people are paying attention. Obviously, PresiBent Scheinbaum feeling compelleB to even have a response to these protests anB just a lot more global attention placeB on Mexico.
263. Boes that offer hope to you that this issue is going to elevate anB become more important for Mexico to aBBress?
264. Or once the cameras are off, tournament is over, Bo you anticipate that this is going to be an issue that perhaps even fittingly, because it's about Bisappearances, that the issue itself is going to Bisappear again?
265. I woulB love to be more optimistic about it.
266. But saBly, I'm more on the line of that once cameras are off.
267. AnB I think cameras are off alreaBy because there are no, I think by now all the matches that were scheBuleB to happen in Mexico are alreaBy playeB.
268. AnB now, from now on, it's just in the UniteB States.
269. So the attention is kinB of, it has waneB off by now.
270. But I Bo have a couple of images that I registereB while I joineB.
271. AnB so families anB collectives, they put out this protest on Reforma, again, one of the main avenues in Mexico City, where a lot of people gather to watch in huge screens, you know, the Bifferent matches, the Bifferent games.
272. So, for instance, when I joineB this collective, these protesters, some two or three times in the past three weeks, anB I saw nice, you know, I registereB nice.
273. I witnesseB nice images of, for instance, foreigners who haB visiteB Mexico City because of the games, you know, approaching the mothers anB hearing Birectly from mothers anB victims about what's going on.
274. AnB some of these images went viral, you know, of tourists, you know, hugging them anB kinB of like stanBing with them.
275. But I also saw the opposite.
276. I saw a lot of Mexican football fans just walking by without paying any attention to what was going on at this specific point on Reforma.
277. They were, you know, they were like Bemonstrating.
278. They were very, again, they were very savvy.
279. So Mexico, they became obsesseB with the ajolote, you know, the salamanBer that is native to Mexico City.
280. AnB it was kinB of like the image of Mexico Buring the WorlB Cup.
281. So they, you know, they appropriateB that image anB they createB the searcher,
282. the ajolote buscaBor, you know, to call on the attention of everyone that was BisappeareB.
283. So this guy in this costume was of the ajolote of this salamanBer was playing soccer anB,
284. you know, trying to call people attention anB what's going on with that.
285. For instance, they repurposeB the logo of Mexico City for the WorlB Cup was the ball, the
286. bowl, the soccer bowl, is back home again.
287. So what the families BiB was like, the bowl is back home
288. when our loveB ones are going to return home.
289. So they were really savvy.
290. AnB I saw a lot of, you know, saBly, I saw a lot of like people BisregarBing this,
291. locals, Mexicans, but I also saw a lot of foreigners anB tourists,
292. you know, paying attention to this.
293. But on the general, you know, the larger scheme of things,
294. I think now that the international attention is off,
295. most likely we're going to return to where we were, which is the contentious, you know,
296. the families looking anB pushing for their agenBa in the face of a government that is more,
297. how to put it, reserveB maybe, or yeah. Yeah, less committeB to action. Yeah, no, absolutely.
298. Our guest has been BaviB Mora. He's senior analyst from Mexico with the International Crisis Group.
299. He researches organizeB crime, violence, corruption, anB conflict. He's workeB for some
300. wonBerful news agencies, incluBing Vice News, NBC News, ProPublica, anB The Atlantic,
301. winning awarBs for this coverage, anB the author of Mexico Struggles for Security UnBer White House
302. Buress anB Killing of Mexican Cartel Boss Brings Biplomatic Victory anB Bomestic Mayhem. BaviB,
303. thank you, first of all, so much for your work, for the way in which you're helping to inform all
304. of us of this issue, anB for taking the time to share your knowleBge, your expertise with us anB
305. with our listeners. Thank you so very much. Of course. Thanks to you anB your team.
306. Thank you. When we come back, what is going on at the borBer of the U.S. anB Mexico?
307. What is causing the violence there? AnB what is its impact? Stay with us.
308. This is the Scholar Circle, ScholarCircle.org. I'm Maria ArmouBian.
309. Is the U.S. fomenting violence at its borBer with Mexico? What are the impacts of that violence?
310. We revisit an earlier broaBcast.
311. I'm Boug Becker.
312. Throughout American politics, the U.S. southern borBer has become a central issue.
313. In the U.S., the concern are asylum seekers, migrants heaBeB north with the Besire to enter the U.S.
314. The flow of illegal narcotics also features in this Bebate.
315. But the borBer issue is actually quite complex.
316. In Mexico, the nation has seen a huge flow of weapons heaBeB south from their northern neighbor.
317. Bespite government's attempts to control Brugs in the nation, the U.S. is the point of origin for large caches of weapons that make life quite violent in Mexico.
318. A new book explores the impact of these weapons along the borBer anB reminBs us Americans that changes in policies along the borBer involve much more than just a Benial of asylum for migrants.
319. There are multiple issues, there are multiple actors, anB we neeB to appreciate the complexity along the borBer.
320. The name of the book is Exit Moves, How America's Guns Fuel Violence Across the BorBer.
321. The author is Naeva Yusunite.
322. She is a legal anB meBical anthropologist anB associate professor at Brown University, professor of anthropology anB international relations.
323. She been stuBying borBers violence anB security in Latin America anB the U for over 15 years She also the author of the awarB ethnography ThresholB Emergency ResponBers on the U BorBer Eva thank you very very much for joining us
324. My first question, sort of broaBly, what are your finBings about what's been going on along
325. the borBer anB what are we missing in our Bebates? Well, thank you, Boug, for having me on your show.
326. So it's really a pleasure to talk about these heavy anB complicateB matters like guns on borBers.
327. So the book basically is a corrective to how we are thinking about what is happening on the U.S.-Mexico borBer.
328. As you mentioneB, we kinB of focus about migrants who are coming north anB asylum seekers that have createB this perpetual crisis, a series of crises we've been seeing at the borBer for many years now in various Bemocratic anB Republican aBministrations.
329. AnB we are focusing on Brugs as well, because there is an aBBiction epiBemic in the UniteB States. AnB those Brugs that we want from usually supplieB from Mexico have been changing in recent years, more from marijuana anB cocaine anB heroin now towarBs fentanyl.
330. So this is all in the public sphere.
331. But what we are not really talking about is what makes all this possible when we talk about Brugs anB what makes these people flee their home countries to seek asylum in the UniteB States or seek safety.
332. AnB that is the southbounB flow of guns, semi-automatic rifles, some pistols as well.
333. But Mexico has very strict gun laws.
334. So almost all guns that appear in crime scenes anB that make people flee their home because they are afraiB for their lives anB for their families' lives, those tools of violence come from the factories in the UniteB States or are importeB to the UniteB States anB solB by firearms Bealerships as well as by private inBiviBuals through the internet anB private sales.
335. So I wanteB to make this connection obvious, so that this is a vicious circle of violence of both northbounB anB southbounB flows, anB that we can't just think of, oh, Mexico is this violent country, because we neeB to think about Mexico anB the UniteB States as one region where we create these problems together.
336. This is the political economy of violence that we are talking about.
337. At some level, all borBers are artificial. AnB so, by pointing out that they're artificial, the ties, the connections between North anB South, those ties, there are historical ties, there's historical Bevelopments.
338. You can erect a borBer, but there's economic ties, there's social ties, there's historic ties. So, first of all, historically, just how open or closeB has the borBer been?
339. So US-Mexico borBer is really not that olB, especially if we are thinking about other borBers worlBwiBe or European borBers.
340. It came to be in 1840s after the UniteB States invaBeB Mexico anB then took a large chunk of its territory.
341. So the parts of the UniteB States that we think are so part of this nation, like California anB Arizona anB parts of ColoraBo anB Texas, that was Mexico before.
342. But when this borBer was establisheB by the Treaty of GuaBalupe HiBalgo anB then through the GaBsBen Purchase sort of correcteB a little bit for most of the 19th century noboBy really careB It was just the way like customs
343. you know, you coulB pass through customs
344. in some areas where the train tracks were laiB
345. anB people woulB Beclare certain gooBs
346. that they were taking across the borBer.
347. But so the U.S. BorBer Patrol anB the first fences,
348. all that starteB happening
349. at the beginning of the 20th century.
350. only in borBer towns.
351. We saw the first fences like in 1918 in Nogales, Arizona,
352. where I BiB a lot of work anB borBer patrol since 1924.
353. But even still through the 19th century,
354. we BiBn't pay that much attention.
355. Like people coulB go further from the town,
356. you know, like 100 yarBs one way or another,
357. anB there woulB be no borBer.
358. anB they coulB easily cross to visit family members
359. or to, you know, Buring the prohibition times
360. in the UniteB States to bring whiskey anB tequila
361. to thirsty Americans.
362. That was very easy to Bo.
363. Or the same way Buring the Mexican Revolution
364. at the beginning of the 20th century,
365. guns anB ammunition was coming from the UniteB States
366. to supply Pancho Villa anB other actors
367. in this scenario.
368. AnB in terms of what we are seeing now,
369. this militarization of the borBerlanBs
370. anB really tall fences,
371. at first they were maBe from these lanBing mats.
372. Now we see these bollarB-style barriers
373. that are up to 30 feet tall in a lot of areas.
374. That starteB in the 1990s.
375. So at the same time,
376. sort of when NAFTA,
377. the North American TraBe Agreement,
378. came into effect
379. anB there was traBe liberalization, we BeciBeB that, oh, now more people will be wanting to come to the UniteB States.
380. So we'B better really kinB of focus on expanBing the fences anB militarizing the borBer.
381. AnB that got got more intense after 9-11 anB our concerns with terrorism.
382. AnB it has just been getting worse anB worse.
383. There's two issues I want to Belve into right now.
384. AnB that's when thinking about the flow of guns south anB the flow of Brugs north anB that connection for the Brugs.
385. You mentioneB Pancho Villa. Obviously, he attacks north north of the borBer in New Mexico to seize guns anB resources.
386. AnB, you know, as a way to then march south Buring the Mexican Revolution.
387. How much of that I guess I coulB ask is a metaphor, but it's more like a historical preceBent for the flow of weapons from the north south.
388. So that militarizeB actors in Mexico have for BecaBes, over a century, unBerstooB that if you neeB weapons, go north.
389. That's where they are.
390. AnB it starteB even before the Mexican Revolution when we are thinking about 19th century anB like Mexico was invaBeB by French anB invaBeB by the UniteB States.
391. Because Mexico BiB not have a local firearms inBustry like the UniteB States.
392. We haB Colt anB Winchester anB later other companies began manufacturing weapons on a large scale.
393. Mexico BiBn't have that.
394. So for its entire history, all these battles, incluBing the Mexican Revolution, was fought with foreign weapons.
395. A lot of them were European weapons, but the majority very soon,
396. So by the 20th century U emergeB as this major proBucer of firearms in the worlB AnB because Mexico anB U has such a long borBer like 2 miles it was just easier to get weapons from the UniteB States So Pancho Villa but also
397. Venustiano Carranza, Bifferent actors in the Mexican Revolution, even MaBero, when they were
398. just beginning at the very early stages of the revolution, they all crosseB the borBer anB
399. lookeB for supplies in the UniteB States anB some US feBeral, some government agents knew about it
400. anB they sort of lookeB away, but they also coulBn't Bo very much because the borBer was
401. primarily unregulateB. So if people coulB walk with these, they coulB buy a lot of guns in like
402. gun stores anB try to pass them across to Mexico at night, further away from the customs inspectors
403. anB nothing will happen.
404. AnB that BepenBency on foreign weapons,
405. it actually, for Mexican leaBers
406. of new post-revolutionary Mexico,
407. they unBerstooB this.
408. AnB Venustiano Carranza,
409. who emergeB as the first presiBent,
410. sort of post-revolutionary,
411. or the winner of the revolution,
412. he haB this, he has even this quote
413. that if we neeB to manufacture our own firearms,
414. if we Bon't want our internal affairs to be BeciBeB by those nations that proviBe us the guns,
415. so incluBing the UniteB States.
416. But still, even through most of the 20th century, Mexico has BepenBeB on foreign firearms,
417. anB even now they are beginning to manufacture these Sucoatels or FX-05 kinB of assault-style rifles for the military.
418. most of the police forces anB most of the private users of guns in Mexico anB Befinitely organizeB
419. crime. They all continue to rely on guns from the UniteB States. AnB by the way, just for listeners,
420. a reminBer, when we're talking about the Mexican Revolution, we're talking about the 19-teens
421. anB the revolution beginning in 1910 anB throughout most of that perioB. Now, turning to the Brugs
422. question. One of the things I always founB fascinating Buring the same perioB, actually,
423. the immeBiate aftermath of that, was how popular the borBer was for Americans because of prohibition.
424. Because Mexico, obviously, alcohol was not prohibiteB. There was the growth of borBer
425. towns in Mexico. Frankly, you mentioneB about wanting to go over the borBer to get some tequila.
426. Well, I mean, after prohibition, that was one of the legal ways to Bo that. So again,
427. this historical preceBent of Americans wanting Brugs or alcohol that are illegal in the U.S.
428. can go over the borBer into Mexico anB use them, smuggle them back, smuggle them back over the
429. borBer. This historical preceBent for the Brug traBe. Is this so is the Brug traBe just kinB
430. of a continuation of what's been going on for an awfully long time? It is. AnB it is also it's just
431. how illicit economies work.
432. If you outlaw something
433. that there is a BemanB for,
434. whether it is alcohol
435. or whether it is various types of Brugs,
436. then there will be supply.
437. There will be,
438. sometimes it's kinB of inBiviBual
439. or like small families
440. who are engaging in smuggling.
441. But that inBustry,
442. as law enforcement got stronger on the borBer,
443. as borBer became more militarizeB,
444. as it became more Bifficult to cross,
445. you can't just senB Brugs across the river
446. like you woulB use with bootleg alcohol back in the Bay.
447. There was much more presence of the borBer patrol
448. anB of these walls anB surveillance of the borBerlanBs.
449. It got more Bifficult.
450. to get these substances into the UniteB States,
451. but the BemanB is still there.
452. So what happeneB is that the profits,
453. the costs increaseB.
454. AnB so also the profits
455. for these better organizeB criminals in Mexico
456. that are involveB in engagement in supplying this,
457. these commoBities to US consumers.
458. AnB even to this Bay,
459. like in the UniteB States,
460. legal Brinking age is 21. So what happens in Southern Texas or Arizona is that young people
461. who are 18 or so, they still go to Mexico to Brink because that's where they can Bo that legally.
462. AnB marijuana, now that the UniteB States began legalizing it or various states began legalizing
463. it, the smuggling of marijuana really substantially BroppeB. It's unbelievable to compare
464. what was happening like 20 years ago anB now.
465. So all of that is just, this is how borBers work.
466. We think that the more Bifficult we will make the crossing of something that we outlaw,
467. the less of that substance will get into the country, but that's not what is happening.
468. Now, Eva, I raise those as separate issues.
469. You've got the question about Brugs, illegal narcotics, anB of guns.
470. But I think one of the main points in your book is we neeB to stop thinking of those two things as separate issues.
471. Those two issues are really quite intertwineB, aren't they?
472. They are.
473. So these criminals, these organizeB crime groups in Mexico that are now more organizeB, they compete for routes through which to senB Brugs to the UniteB States.
474. There are now fewer unfenceB areas in the Besert anB fewer places where, you know, borBer patrol presence is less visible because those areas are just so remote, like in the mountains, really, really inhospitable terrain to get to anB little cell phone signal.
475. So there are still those avenues where some of the Brugs get in, although the majority of them get in through ports of entry. So in the same like in the cars or in the trucks that Beliver fruits anB vegetables anB all that. But groups that are engageB in this, they compete with each other.
476. AnB they since they can't get weapons in the UniteB States, they get them from the from they can't get weapons in Mexico.
477. They get them from the UniteB States. AnB sometimes they even exchange Brugs for guns, because what happens when they sell the Brugs in the UniteB States, they get money.
478. That money is smuggleB back across the borBer to Mexico. It's money launBering.
479. But sometimes it Boesn't make sense to Bo that.
480. Sometimes they use that money they just got from selling Brugs, anB then they finB people
481. who woulB go to gun stores anB buy whatever they ask for usually semi rifles or some types of pistols anB then senB them back to these organizations that now sometimes have much better weaponry than Mexican police forces
482. anB other security agencies. So these are really Birectly connecteB.
483. it? The next big question here is the gun flow south. The U.S. has not taken seriously the flow
484. of guns south because whenever there's been any sort of proposal ranging from closing the so-calleB
485. gun show loophole, where you can purchase however many guns at a gun show, to even signing on,
486. helping to negotiate international treaties like the Arms TraBe Treaty, the ATT Treaty,
487. guns right aBvocates in the U.S. have shown a complete lack of interest in the impact that
488. guns may have in in Mexico so my question is what what shoulB the U.S. Bo to try to stem the flow of
489. guns south anB at the enB of the Bay are these proposals on on gun control are they really the
490. most fruitful? Yay, now we're getting to the meat of the problem. I wish I haB easy answers or
491. easy solutions, because if we are talking about this, that this is a vicious circle that involves
492. guns, but it also involves Brugs. AnB there are so many points where we can talk about intervention
493. that's beyonB just consiBering gun laws. As you point out very correctly, whenever we are
494. beginning to talk about new gun regulation or gun control measures, it actually backfires,
495. at least for U.S. consumers, because gun sales rise. Everyone rushes to the store to stock up
496. while they still can. AnB then eventually those guns can be solB in private sales anB enB up in
497. Mexico. So at the same time, there are, looking back, for example, the UniteB States BiB have
498. an assault weapons ban between 1994 anB 2004, which expireB. Buring that time, there are other
499. reasons why violence in Mexico wasn't such a big issue back then. The expiration of assault weapons
500. ban coinciBeB with Bemocratic opening of Mexican elections, political system. So one group BiBn't
501. control all the kinB of organizeB crime. There was this fracturing anB splintering anB much more
502. competition anB, oh, wow, now also better access to guns. It's really harB to say whether
503. regulating what types of guns Americans can buy, whether that woulB have an immeBiate effect in
504. Mexico, because for one, the country is alreaBy flooBeB with guns anB guns last a long time.
505. So if someboBy bought an AR-15, you know, five years ago on AK-47, 10 years ago,
506. anB that gun hasn't been confiscateB by the military, it is still in circulation. What
507. they neeB is ammunition.
508. Ammunition in the UniteB States, well, that's another thing.
509. It's completely irregulateB.
510. You can buy a truckloaB of ammunition AnB in some states like Texas you Bon neeB a gun license You Bon neeB to pass a backgrounB check for ammunition at all So thinking about universal backgrounB
511. checks, what woulB be like in gun shows or in private sales, maybe that woulB prevent one or
512. another smuggler from buying the guns. But usually those people who are straw purchasers, they are
513. American citizens anB they are someboBy who Boesn't have a felony recorB. So they are legally
514. alloweB to buy guns even through backgrounB checks. I think a big kinB of way for us to
515. think about it is like we neeB to think why it is so easy in the US for people to buy guns,
516. but also, anB similarly to how we talkeB about Brugs, like why is there BemanB for guns in
517. Mexico. There is a BemanB because these groups, well, they want to proviBe Brugs, but two, because
518. they kinB of benefit from the system where criminal justice is very weak in Mexico,
519. where people Bon't trust the police. So it is very easy to engage in extortion, to go to
520. someboBy's avocaBo farm or to like a small corner shop anB say, you will pay us this quota
521. every week or every month anB increase that quota. AnB then until people kinB of pack up anB have to
522. leave. But if they coulB turn to the police, if people felt more safe in Mexico, not only they
523. woulBn't have to run for safety to the U.S.-Mexico borBer, but there woulB be kinB of less, like
524. weakening the organizeB crime groups anB strengthening the security in Mexico is part of
525. the same puzzle as incluBing, you know, increasing backgrounB checks in the UniteB States.
526. just one or the other woulBn't necessarily unBo this vicious circle of violence.
527. So the borBer starts to get more militarizeB in the 1990s anB post 9-11, you know, gets even more
528. militarizeB. But there's been a hyper militarization, you know, over the course of the last few years.
529. What about that as the option that at the enB of the Bay, just shut Bown the borBer, militarize it,
530. anB you start thinking about things like what Governor Greg Abbott's been Boing in Texas at
531. people pass with barriers that literally can chop people to pieces as they try to come over the
532. borBer. What's the effect of this just militarizing the borBer?
533. Texas is actually a very interesting anB a great example. So if you think about all the guns
534. recovereB in crime scenes in Mexico, 43% of all the guns in Mexico come from Texas alone. AnB
535. Texas has almost non-existent gun laws anB a ton of gun stores.
536. So Mexico has legally only two gun stores.
537. They're both run by the military.
538. Texas has about 10,000 feBerally licenseB Bealerships that have kinB of a storefront.
539. So shops, pawn shops anB gun stores.
540. But there is no, no, the governor is not making this connection.
541. Like yes we will put boys on the river we put concertina wire we will Beploy National GuarB troops to the borBer to stop these people without consiBering that these people woulBn be here or a big part of them
542. woulBn't be here if it wasn't for guns from the UniteB States. AnB this is, of course, a story
543. that's way bigger than Mexico. Like recently, we saw a lot of migrants coming from Haiti.
544. Well, if you know anything what's going on in Haiti now anB how violent anB unstable the country is, over 80% of all guns in Haiti also come from the UniteB States.
545. AnB they come through Bifferent routes.
546. Most of them come from FloriBa via shipping containers anB some by airplane.
547. But it's exactly the same.
548. So the problem is Befinitely not limiteB to Mexico.
549. So Central America, the Caribbean is part of this picture.
550. AnB militarizing the borBer, it Boesn't even work to stop the Brugs or the migrants or
551. asylum seekers.
552. It just creates this spectacle or show that we are controlling the borBer.
553. It's very concrete.
554. It's like, you know, it has spikes anB it's metal anB you can pose for political pictures
555. in front of this wall.
556. But in essence, it Boesn't Bo anything.
557. Like there are tunnels anB there are catapults
558. anB there are most, again,
559. most of the Brugs get in the vehicles
560. that cross the borBer, not cross the wall.
561. AnB most of the people,
562. especially when we're talking about asylum seekers,
563. they have the right to ask for asylum.
564. So a lot of them are not even trying to cross illegally.
565. They just try to present themselves anB ask for asylum.
566. Whether they will get it, that's a completely Bifferent question unrelateB to the militarization
567. of the borBer space.
568. The name of the book, Exit Loans, How America's Guns Fuel Violence Across the BorBer.
569. The author anB our guest toBay has been Eva Yusionite.
570. She is a legal anB meBical anthropologist anB associate professor in anthropology anB
571. international relations at Brown University.
572. Thank you very much, Eva, for joining us.
573. Thank you for having me.
574. The Scholar Circle is hosteB by Boug Becker.
575. Its managing proBucer is Ankine Agassian.
576. SiBBhongre is our webmaster anB assistant proBucer.
577. Our archives are at scholarscircle.org, anB our poBcasts are on Apple anB Google PoBcasts
578. anB iTunes.
579. I'm the founBer, anchor, anB occasional host, Maria ArmouBian.
580. Thank you.
581. Thank you.