Sojourner Truth - Friday, June 12, 2026

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1. KPFK 90.7 FM, Los Angeles.
2. We'll be right back.
3. Learn how your gift of property can make a meaningful difference.
4. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the People's Game.
5. And we are back.
6. And during the course of the World Cup soccer tournament that launched yesterday in Mexico
7. and will run through mid to late July.
8. We will be here Fridays at 5 p.m. on KPFK.
9. What is the People's Game?
10. It is the people's coverage of the most popular spectacle in the world,
11. the Quadrennial Men's World Cup Soccer Tournament.
12. And we have been operating the People's Game right here out of KPFK
13. since the 2010 World Cup with the team of myself, Alan Minsky,
14. my partner, Melissa Figueroa, and Fernando Romero,
15. who is in Mexico right now following El Tri's games.
16. So the World Cup right now, of course, is unlike anything we've had in the series before,
17. for one and two obvious reasons.
18. The first is that the World Cup is, of course, hosted predominantly by the United States.
19. There are 26 games out of the United States split between Canada and Mexico
20. and 78 games in the United States, including the semifinals and the final on July 19th.
21. And the second reason is because we are in a political crisis in the United States that, of course, is unlike anything that I've seen in my lifetime.
22. And as the global hegemon economically, militarily, and arguably politically, at least since the end of the Cold War, the United States being in crisis means the entire geopolitical system is in crisis.
23. And it merits being in crisis because it's so imbalanced with the few having so much money and so much power at the expense of the many. But this particular crisis in the United States is also defined by a rise of an absolutely reprehensible fascist right wing that is imposing a level of a class divide and race hatred that does exceed anything that I've seen in my lifetime.
24. It's been prevalent right here in Southern California with ice, of course.
25. And in this context, the most popular sport in the world, the global game, the sport that's
26. been the most popular sport in every country in the world, except a few other than the
27. but not the United States.
28. And it's here in the United States.
29. There's always been this disconnect between American sports culture and soccer.
30. Now, in this context, we're not welcoming the people of the world.
31. We're saying, come here at your peril.
32. And this is set up as possibly the ugliest World Cup in the history of the tournament.
33. And so we here at the People Game to look at all of those contradictions all of the dangers and still celebrate a game that unifies the working class across this entire globe Your thoughts at the top of this tournament Melissa Figueroa my co
34. Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, I think for the 16 years now that we've been doing the People's Game,
35. we've been anticipating this one, the World Cup 2026.
36. We had no idea that it would come at a time where almost the tournament itself will parallel what's happening in the wider world out there.
37. You know, we have now FIFA, of course, with Gianni Infantino and his weird bromance with Trump, just kind of directly mirroring the kind of sports washing kind of oligarchic spectacle that we already were going to expect out of FIFA.
38. but like in this case is like kind of supercharged just the way that oligarchy itself is supercharged
39. in the wider world. We have now a condition in which we have this world game, but people
40. from 75 countries cannot travel to the United States because of the insane immigration policies
41. in the second Trump administration.
42. We have the U.S. as a country that is emerging in the game
43. or new to the game or, you know, doesn't have the deep culture
44. that a lot of other countries have.
45. And yet the people from those countries cannot come here
46. and share their wonderful soccer culture with us.
47. So that's really unfortunate.
48. And then also we have, of course, the fact of the Iran war,
49. the interesting possibility that Iran and the United States
50. may actually face each other on the field if they qualify from their respective groups.
51. Yeah, there's a lot of parallels going on.
52. Again, the World Cup has always kind of mirrored world trends,
53. but I think this one is particularly stark.
54. And in this first inaugural episode,
55. we'll let you know that we'll be back here every Friday at 5 p.m.
56. We're going to be really getting going on all of our social media feeds.
57. Look for peoples underscore game on X or peoples.game on Instagram.
58. And we're going to get those going during all the games on the field and all the events that are happening politically around the world and around the tournament over the next few weeks.
59. But in this episode, we're going to hear from our co-host and co-producer, Fernando Romero, on the eve of him traveling down to Mexico.
60. We recorded this a few days ago.
61. And then we're going to hear from, in our featured interview, Thomas Hanna from the Democracy Collaborative.
62. He is somebody who organizes for really the game remaining the people's game.
63. So sports clubs and teams that are owned by the fans that are outside of the fangs of the oligarchy sucking the blood and joy from the game.
64. So that's going to be a great interview.
65. And we'll hear his thoughts about the upcoming tournament.
66. He is based in the United States.
67. And then we'll close out with Fernando, myself and Melissa with our thoughts in advance of the tournament.
68. But just before we launch into the initial interview with Fernando, I'm going to play little clips from two British soccer legends.
69. Craig Burnley and Ian Wright, and you'll hear their thoughts about how fraught and unfortunate the setup is for a World Cup in Donald Trump's America.
70. At this moment in time, and this could change, as Nedham said, when the football starts.
71. At this moment in time, the rest of the world are viewing this in nothing other than a negative light.
72. Immigration issues, ticket and prices, cost of travel, spread of the World Cup.
73. Too many games.
74. All of these things.
75. At this moment in time this World Cup is going to have to be brilliant on the field to win people over There is so much negativity there a lot of people worried about coming here and that that not that not really a good place
76. to be so hopefully when the football starts the stadiums are full the football's good and the fans
77. are treated which i'm sure they will in a very good way by the american public i've not have a
78. problem with that but if it goes the other way this competition could turn sour very very quickly
79. After speaking to US authorities, world governing body FIFA said Artan would miss the tournament.
80. Here's what ex-Arsenal and England legend Ian Wright had to say in response to that news.
81. I just read that the Somalian referee has been denied entry.
82. every few hours
83. it's another story
84. another story about fans denied
85. players denied, officials denied
86. journalists denied
87. now refs
88. you know something, I'm laughing
89. but it's not funny
90. something has to be said
91. expensive tickets, the most expensive tickets ever
92. expensive accommodation
93. transport through the roof
94. it has to be said
95. is this how the hosts behave really
96. for the greatest game
97. the greatest tournament in the world
98. is this how the hosts behave
99. are we not hearing more
100. are we seeing how the guitar got dragged
101. are we not hearing more
102. is this the spirit of football
103. really
104. you know who I feel for
105. I feel for the American fans who are desperate for this
106. American soccer fans who are desperate for this
107. how embarrassed they must be
108. how embarrassing for them this must be.
109. You know what? This is the World Cup.
110. This is the World Cup of chaos.
111. Whoever wins this World Cup is going to have to go through
112. some serious, serious chaos to get this done.
113. I hope we can do it.
114. But something has to be said.
115. This is just like...
116. This is the World Cup.
117. This is the World Cup of chaos.
118. I suspect that line might stick.
119. Hello, everyone. Alan Minsky here with The People's Game with the two other producers and longtime producers.
120. We're not as young as we once were of The People's Game, going back to the very first year that we started in 2010.
121. And that means we are all reunited. I'm Alan Minsky, joined by Melissa Figueroa.
122. Hello.
123. And Fernando Romero, who is in greater Los Angeles right now.
124. But he is the featured subject of this segment because he is on his way to Mexico City for the first game of the 2026 World Cup.
125. And a soccer match that will not be heavily overdetermined and weighed upon by the hideousness of the politics in the United States of America.
126. And may actually be a festival of pure football joy.
127. So, Fernando, let us know what your plans are,
128. where you're going to be for the big game in Mexico City,
129. what you think is going to happen on that field,
130. and what's going to happen among the passionate fans of El Tri.
131. Thank you, Alan.
132. Like I said, great to be back.
133. It's been 16 years of the People's Game now.
134. It's my, what, fifth World Cup now with Alan.
135. And so I'm glad to be back.
136. And, yeah, as Alan mentioned,
137. I am privileged enough to be able to make the pilgrimage as you may say to Mexico City in a few days time It something that I definitely looking forward to I had the privilege to you know experience a World Cup in Brazil 12 years ago And as a Mexican national
138. a dual citizen of the U.S. and Mexico, I waited out where I wanted to experience this World Cup
139. in 2026. And definitely Mexico City won outright because it's, you know, soccer crazy country.
140. It's wonderful people. And, you know, you know, it's going to be a dream come true.
141. And I expect to that the intention is to see the game. As you all know, the tickets are extravagantly expensive.
142. So the expectation as of now, between the next 48 hours, expectations to go to the Stokaro at 12 p.m.
143. local time and just stand there with another half a million or two million Mexicans at the center of the city to, you know,
144. sing the national anthem, to see the game in the center of the city, where, as many people know,
145. that's where the Aztecs, the pyramids, have their kingdom and the pyramids that stood there. So it's
146. going to be really emotional, and it's going to be a really beautiful thing to see, to be right next
147. to half a million to a million Mexicans watching the game and the whole world watching what we're
148. watching at the Zócalo, right next to the National Palace with President Scheinbaum probably watching
149. the game as well from TV.
150. So it's definitely exciting.
151. And yeah, I'm just looking forward to it.
152. Like I said, it's a dream come true as a Mexican to be able to experience a World Cup in the
153. country that saw me, gave birth to me 42 years ago.
154. So I'm definitely excited.
155. I'm traveling with a couple of friends and we're watching the first game in Mexico City
156. and then taking a bus to Guadalajara a few days after that and then coming back to Mexico
157. City for the third game.
158. So we're definitely following the team each and every way.
159. And we'll get reports from Fernando from Mexico throughout the entire group stage.
160. And this is the first city and country ever to host three World Cups.
161. Oh, yeah.
162. Definitely.
163. I know some people are going to get mad at me for saying this, but maybe football's really coming home.
164. Yeah.
165. The games that were played right underneath where Fernando will be standing.
166. Now, I suppose I'm in a bit of a minority among soccer commentators from what I can garner,
167. but I am excited about El Tri this time.
168. And I think one of the reasons is, look, the Mexican National League is one of the stronger
169. domestic leagues at holding the best players from the national team in the domestic league.
170. And that creates the mystery that always used to exist in the World Cup.
171. People didn't know what they were going to see when they saw the Brazilian team or the
172. Argentinian team if they're in Europe.
173. that our South Americans didn't know what to expect when they saw the French team or the
174. German team or the Italian team when they came to South America. And this is one of the few
175. countries where it's going to be introduced to a whole network of players, certainly on a
176. competitive team. And I'm pretty excited about them. I know that maybe that's not exactly the
177. sentiment in Mexico, but what are your thoughts on Eltree? It's 50-50. I'm definitely excited
178. about the team. I think the team, you know, what I was thinking about this, you based it on between
179. the last World Cup and this World Cup and between 2022 to the present I think this team is uh more
180. cohesive there's a lot more talent the uh the structure is there we have players that have been
181. on the national team uh there's players with a lot of experience and there's players that are very
182. young for example the uh we have a player in Gilberto Mora who's 17 years old which is very
183. exciting very exciting to have a a minor someone who's underage to play at the World Cup which I
184. I don't know if it's correct, but it might be the first time Mexico has fueled a player that's underage.
185. So that's really exciting.
186. And, you know, we all got to see him in the Gold Cup last year, and he did great in the Gold Cup.
187. final at the same time i think the you know i was reading a couple articles a few days ago how the
188. uh this this team this mexican national team is very uh there's been a respect of the process to
189. develop the players that last week when they played serbia uh seven of the players that started
190. last thursday were also part of the team at the olympics in japan in 2020 so those seven starters
191. were there you know we're talking players that are like in their mid to mid to late 20s so that's a
192. very exciting thing, not only of the youth, but also the development. They respected the process
193. of the development of these players. So I think there's a couple of things that are missing on
194. the team. I think there's definitely a right back that is needed. Last Thursday was Jorge Sanchez,
195. who started on the right back, but he lost a couple of balls, wasn't running on the line the
196. way I think he should have been doing. And then I think the other thing that's a big gap is scoring.
197. I think we definitely need more scoring.
198. I think, you know, we need Santi Jimenez to step up during the World Cup.
199. Raul Jimenez is there, but he definitely needs a backup to support with that.
200. But it's definitely very, it's a really exciting team.
201. Vasco Aguirre and Rafa Marquez have been doing a great job on the technical side.
202. And I know maybe because I'm Mexican and we saw them beat Serbia 5-1.
203. And three months ago, I was mad at the Mexican Nationals.
204. But like now it seems like things are clicking and it's exactly at the right time for all those things to start clicking.
205. I know that there have been protests that have wreaked havoc on the final preparations, snarled up traffic in Mexico City, because there has been a lot of protests.
206. The Largest Teachers Union is on strike, as well as several other public sector unions.
207. And while the issue itself is not directly related to the World Cup, it's more about like pension reform, actually.
208. The unions are using this moment that Mexico is in the spotlight and Mexico City in particular to be able to push forward with their demands.
209. It's a really interesting way of using that leverage of the World Cup, especially because, you know, many cities have been promised these economic booms because the games are coming.
210. And in the United States, that's just not happening. Not only are like something like 20 out of the 48 countries have travel bans, so like they can't even come to the United States.
211. You know, Mexico City is probably going to be one of the only cities in this tournament that's actually going to have an economic tourist boom from this.
212. And so it'll be interesting. I don't know what you know about this political struggle that's pushing itself into the spotlight as the World Cup begins.
213. First of all, I do want to say that I completely support the teachers and I completely support, you know, the using the World Cup as a stage to present, you know, your struggle.
214. So I'm glad that they're doing that. And I and I hope I can join in a couple of protests while I'm down there myself.
215. But, yeah, it's good to see that Mexico City, out of all the cities that are hosting World Cup games in the next five, six weeks,
216. that they're the ones that are leading the charge about, you know, the working class,
217. about, you know, teachers' rights, unionizing members, and the economic situations that
218. a country like Mexico, Mexico City in particular, are going through.
219. So it's really relieving to see, you know, we're here in L.A.
220. We haven't, not only haven't really felt the fever of a World Cup, but we're not seeing
221. it yet, this type of a protest and putting the World Cup in.
222. And I think some of the workers at SoFi are planning on pushing back and doing a strike here in L.A.
223. But we haven seen it to the way that Mexico City the teachers have been doing it the last few days So it really beautiful to see And you know myself yourself Melissa and Alan that I feel like that what the workup is also about is about presenting you know these issues
224. that are embedded in the society where, you know,
225. not just the workup is being played, but across the world.
226. So that's also really exciting.
227. And I hope that the teachers continue to, you know,
228. agitate and protest and that their goals are met
229. and that they're heard as well.
230. So it's exciting. And, you know, this came up a few days ago.
231. So I'm definitely looking forward to getting down there and being and participating and then supporting in that.
232. And we will love to be seeing updates from Fernando.
233. Now, People's Game, our Instagram tag is going to be peoples.game.
234. And then on X, which I we're no fans of Twitter is peoples underscore game.
235. And we'll be seeing updates from Fernando on both those and maybe some images from the Zocalo, maybe even images from Azteca Stadium.
236. one of the greatest cathedrals of soccer ever built,
237. a purely sublime location to watch the opening of the World Cup.
238. But again, nothing I think could equal to that,
239. to walking into Stadio Azteca on the first game of the World Cup
240. would be coming upon that massive crowd on the Zocalo.
241. And Fernando, my spirit will be with you there,
242. as I'm sure Melissa's will be.
243. And you are blessed and you deserve this.
244. You are a great advocate for the people and the people's game.
245. thank you so much Fernando and we'll be hearing from you again soon
246. thank you
247. most countries
248. have weaknesses somewhere
249. and they definitely are professional
250. high performers
251. Holland would be great
252. I personally don't see it
253. Thomas and I have something in common
254. he is consistently
255. an advocate for
256. fan ownership of soccer teams
257. which, by the way, is the case for some of the great clubs in Europe still.
258. Some of the most competitive clubs in Europe, most teams in the Bundesliga and Real Madrid in Barcelona in Spain.
259. So it's something that exists and is still vibrant for soccer clubs across the world, even at the highest level.
260. Not in, for the most part, though there are exceptions, Serie A and the Premiership.
261. But that really brings us to the subject of fan ownership and the great history of that.
262. in the sport of football really highlights one of the essential points of crisis for contemporary
263. football, which is this great working class sport built up among the working classes from people
264. all around the world now being dominated by big money to the same degree that luxury real estate
265. is dominated by big money across the world in cities like New York, San Francisco, Paris,
266. et cetera. So how did we get here and what can we do about it? Elizabeth Vigoro is going to
267. introduce Thomas Hanna. Thank you, Alan. So yeah, let me introduce Thomas properly. Thomas M. Hanna
268. is Vice President of Research and Policy at the Democracy Collaborative. He is also an Honorary
269. Research Fellow at the University of Glasgow and a Fellow at the Climate and Community Institute.
270. He's also a first-generation immigrant to the United States, having arrived as a child in the
271. early 1990s. He lives in Virginia with his partner and two children. He's played soccer for more than
272. 35 years at various levels, a volunteer coach for a local youth travel soccer program comprised of
273. about 40 kids from diverse socioeconomic backgrounds, and is also a certified referee.
274. Well welcome to the program Thomas Thank you so much for having me It a pleasure to be here Right on speaking of referees i don know if you all have heard um about the somali referee who was denied a visa into the united
275. states today it was his dream he was going to do his dream job which was your referee the final
276. and um he cannot come into the country because he arrived at the airport they asked him about
277. some Somali group that, you know, of course, DHS considered a terrorist group. And he must have
278. said something that made them say that he was affiliated with them and did not let him into
279. the country. So this guy is unfortunately not going to get to live out his dream this year.
280. And also that's a bad, I don't know what kind of portent that is for what this World Cup is going
281. to be, but it's kind of a very second Trump term thing to have happened, like right at the start
282. of the tournament. So just getting your thoughts. Yeah, I think it's symptomatic of this tournament,
283. you know, in general, and a lot of the issues that, you know, people have been been raising
284. about the sort of cozying up of FIFA to Trump and, and, you know, sort of how this tournament
285. has sort of unfolded so far.
286. You know, it's not just the referee.
287. It's also, you know, fans from different countries,
288. from Haiti, from Ivory Coast, from other places
289. who've been denied visas.
290. The Iranian team, their technical staff
291. has been denied visas.
292. So for the world's game, as it's titled,
293. it's not necessarily becoming the world's game.
294. It's definitely becoming, you know,
295. the Western world's game or the United States' game
296. where they get to impose the rules
297. and FIFA is really not using its power for such an all-powerful, huge, giant organization
298. to not been able to sort of push back, or maybe it doesn't even want to push back on some of these
299. rules and some of these things that are being imposed on countries and fans from around the
300. country. You know, my personal opinion is, you know, there's so much to critique about this
301. World Cup. There's so much to critique about FIFA, but I also need to balance that with
302. not trying to suck the joy out of a game and out of a tournament that has meant a lot to me over
303. the years. And that means a lot to my kids. It means a lot to kids and families and players
304. across this country, across the world. So there's so much joy to be had, and it's going to be a
305. great tournament. But at the same time, we shouldn't pull our punches in calling out what's
306. wrong with it. Yeah, if I can chime in, one of the things that's been a central focus of this
307. series since its inception is the tension that exists that has only increased in that FIFA,
308. again, this is a game that has been built up by working class people across the world. By the way,
309. the United States being something of a paradox in that regard, where certainly a huge, huge,
310. larger portion of the profile of the sport in the United States is related to the suburban
311. an upper middle class, right? And that's just the general free-floating public conception of the
312. sport of soccer in this country, which is in contrast to much of the world. But FIFA really
313. brings us to this sort of point of high tension between the abuse of the globe, abuse of the
314. people around the world, of 21st century financialized capitalism, and the ability to
315. deliver a spectacle, right? And what a paradox FIFA is, because now with every World Cup arriving,
316. the crises around FIFA and its corruption is more understood by more people.
317. It's more heightened.
318. And yet every time they pull this thing off every game starts right at the hour it designated Everything is now unified No longer Austria and Germany can kick the ball around midfield in the final group stage game It all pulled off flawlessly almost better than any you know much more seamlessly than the Olympics
319. And I think even like the American Super Bowl has a lot to learn from the efficiency of delivering the spectacle to the satisfaction of the global soccer fan.
320. And that's what we live with, with the World Cup.
321. So great point, Thomas.
322. Yeah, I think that's definitely right.
323. I do also think that FIFA is running the risk of diluting the World Cup or diluting the brand of the World Cup a bit by their extractive practices,
324. by making it inaccessible to large numbers of people.
325. You know, I went to the World Cup in 1994 when I was in the United States.
326. I have a ticket stub for $25 and it was a formative moment in my life.
327. life. I was a young teenager and that really sort of like kick-started my love of soccer that's
328. lasted 40 years, right? And I think, you know, FIFA, by trying to extract for the present moment,
329. try to maximize profit for the present moment, is sacrificing the long-term. And I think that's
330. very symptomatic of our financialized capitalist system, right? It's all about profit maximization
331. in the short term over the long-term investment that will gain us a more sustainable system in
332. the long run. And I think you see that with soccer, right? We run this risk of making it,
333. you know, an inaccessible sport for the people of the globe. And, you know, I don't particularly
334. like the president of Real Madrid, Perez, but, you know, he makes a very good point about sort
335. of losing the youth. There's so much more competition for, you know, there's other sports
336. out there. There's other things like, you know, competing for the minds of youth and the youth
337. players in across the world. So, you know, if it were me, if I were FIFA, I'd be putting a lot of
338. energy and resources into making it much more of an accessible thing, making it more exciting for
339. younger kids, for the next generation, rather than trying to make as much as I can off of this
340. particular tournament or that particular tournament. It's really bad because it's like,
341. I think at last count, they said that there was something like over 200,000 old unsold tickets
342. And I do believe that the prices are currently over $1,000.
343. They were like $860 on average the last time I checked.
344. But I'm pretty sure now that the tournament started, they're probably surge price to over $1,000.
345. And, you know, I mean, there's a lot of actually pushback as well to like surveillance pricing and surge pricing in certain states.
346. but um you know there's a couple of things that i wonder is like one are there so many unsold
347. tickets and you know um because nobody can afford anything anyway much less a thousand dollar
348. tickets um that you think that they would you know kind of do that thing where they like kind
349. of fire sale them right before the game so our people line up um but that also makes me wonder
350. because you know like in latin america and other places right if you can't get into the game there'd
351. be it's like a massive gathering in like say the socalo that we saw on thursday that i think our
352. friend fernando was at um but um if people do that here in the united states there's i mean there's
353. so it kind of puts in a different calculation because public space is so much more locked down
354. right like uh i don't see where like if if there are like mass gatherings on the street to like
355. watch a game and especially with in cities that ICE is going to be around.
356. It's it's I don't know.
357. It's like now that I think of it of like,
358. what do people do when they can't afford a game, right?
359. They go outside and they stand outside.
360. It's like, I don't see that happening in the United States in ways that's going to have like a great turnout or not, not just a great turnout, but a good outcome with like cops and ice and all of that stuff.
361. I just wonder, you know, for a country where that's been trying to cultivate a love of the game, like where's the space for that now?
362. it? Yeah, I mean, I think the, you know, we could get into the ticketing fiasco and that. That's
363. an entire probably episode on that. But I mean, you know, the sort of dynamic pricing that it's
364. not just soccer in the United States. This is all sports. And a lot of sports are just becoming
365. unaffordable for people to go to. It doesn't exist in many parts of the world. It's really a very
366. uniquely American thing. You know, even Canada, you know, they had to, you know, the tickets
367. that were on sale in Canada had to be changed at one point. I forget exactly what happened,
368. but, you know, they couldn't do the dynamic pricing in Canada and Mexico to the same way
369. that they did it in the United States. And it just introduces this speculative element into the
370. ticketing system, people buying to flip for a profit. You know, I think, you know, I don't
371. know how many tickets will be unsold. I don't know how many empty seats will be in a game. But I do
372. know there'll be people out there who have bought these tickets at an inflated value with no
373. intention of going to a game simply to resell them, to sort of flip them for a profit. And maybe they
374. will. Maybe they'll be successful in doing that. And maybe they won't. Maybe they'll take a loss
375. on some of those tickets because they won't be able to sell them at the inflated values that
376. they thought they were going to get. But the whole thing, you see it every day in every news article,
377. You know, hotel bookings aren't what they thought they would be.
378. Flights aren't what they thought they would be.
379. You know, the whole process, the ticketing process, the, you know, ice, as you mentioned, immigration, everything has sort of created this atmosphere around the tournament where people don't necessarily want to come.
380. They don't necessarily want to spend money.
381. They don't necessarily.
382. It just doesn't have that same sort of vibe, that same sort of joy as other tournaments have in the past.
383. Well, as we're speaking, we're a few hours away from the USA's first game at SoFi
384. against a club, Paraguay, that is among the teams, the other 47 teams in the tournament.
385. It's not a club that's going to have a lot of domestic support in the United States.
386. And, you know, you see the announcers on Fox say it's going to be packed a red, white and blue celebration.
387. Well, you know, USA, Team USA home games are often overwhelmed if they just put them in an honest location by support for the opponent club.
388. And, you know, Canada, obviously, which launches their first game within an hour, goes second and Mexico went first.
389. And I thought the World Cup looked like a World Cup in Mexico.
390. And by the way, in Los Angeles, to Melissa's point, I don't know what we'll see in terms of ice raids at large public gatherings.
391. It's very possible and it could be horrific.
392. But I should mention, thanks to Unite Here, Local 11 in Los Angeles, the ice will not be at World Cup games in Los Angeles because they were successful in that.
393. Well, and actually the L.A. Coliseum was used to have a big public screening of the Mexico game and it was totally packed.
394. And of course, there was no ice presence at that one would think, of course, if if Stephen Miller had his brothers, they would have been rounding people up as they came out of that event.
395. And, you know, unfortunately, the major cities where the games are being played are many of them are sanctuary cities.
396. And the city governments, we can expect, will try to do what they can to prevent that.
397. And of course we saw the whole episode with the Knicks and the fan zone when Donald Trump was president at Madison Square Garden putting a curse on the New York Knicks for at least one game or maybe six quarters as it were I actually want to get to what Thomas work is for advocating for public ownership and fan
398. ownership and what his sense is as he encounters soccer fans around the world, the kind of,
399. you know, resentment that exists towards private ownership, towards the big moneyification of the
400. game on so many levels.
401. Yeah.
402. Thomas, tell us about your work.
403. Yeah, definitely. I mean, this sort of lack of affordability that is infecting sort of all aspects of our culture and our society and our economy is no different for soccer, for football.
404. You know, you talk to fans in the UK and they're getting priced out of games, Premier League games.
405. You know, they're they're getting priced out of games in Germany and Spain.
406. You know, this sort of, you know, lack of being able to, like, support your team the way that you used to be is a global phenomenon.
407. And don't get me started on youth soccer, especially in the United States and how much money has infected youth soccer and the effects of that.
408. You know, if you want one reason why the U.S. is, you know, despite its population is ever going to sort of win a World Cup or or not in a long time, you just have to look at the youth game,
409. which I have a lot of experience with in the US.
410. But to get back to your point,
411. it's really for us, for me,
412. football is, you know, I love it, it's part of my life,
413. but it's the way that I view the economy and society more generally.
414. I believe that we need much more, you know,
415. what we would call economic democracy.
416. We need much more ownership of our economy,
417. of our society in the hands of working people, of everyday people,
418. rather than in the hands of the elite. So, you know, that goes for sport, that goes for workplaces,
419. that goes for cultural institutions. And so in the realm of sport, we work, as you mentioned,
420. you know, with communities across the country, across the world, who are interested in,
421. you know, call it fan ownership or call it public ownership, you know, some form of collective
422. ownership of their sports teams. You know, the U.S. has the Green Bay Packers model. It's like
423. a share ownership model where hundreds of thousands of people own shares of the Green Bay Packers.
424. The NFL, the NBA, NHL, you know, Major League Baseball, they all have a Green Bay Packers rule
425. in their rule books that say you can never do that again. You can only own teams if you're
426. billionaires. But we have one. We have a legacy. There's some minor league teams as well in the U.S.
427. and then in the rest of the world where you don't have those necessarily those restrictions you have
428. decent amounts of fan ownership you mentioned at the outset germany they have the 50 plus one rule
429. for many clubs where they have to be 50 plus one owned by the community uh there are some
430. exemptions uh for teams that are owned by you know like uh word of bremen i think or or you know
431. teams or leverkusen i think it whether it is teams that are owned by companies uh but there are a few
432. exceptions, but by and large, they have this 50 plus one rule. There's fan-owned football teams
433. in the UK, especially the lower levels. You know, there's one in Ireland, in Dublin, that we work
434. with at the Marks and Collaborative called Bohemians, which is a fan-owned team that's doing
435. really interesting economic development and community economic development work around the
436. fan ownership of the club.
437. There's teams in London, Liverpool, other places.
438. And a lot of it, you see, it's just people being really
439. just disgusted.
440. And in many cases, they're not able to take over
441. their own Premier League team.
442. So they'll go out and start their own.
443. And some of these teams have had a long are rising up the divisions AFC Wimbledon is one That was a team that was started because the legendary team of Wimbledon in South London was ripped out of the community and and moved you know
444. I forget how many miles, 200 miles, maybe.
445. MK Dons now.
446. Yeah. MK Dons.
447. And the supporters responded by creating a new team,
448. AFC Wimbledon that's fan owned and they are actually moving up the leagues.
449. They're, I don't know, I think maybe league one, maybe league two.
450. I'm not exactly sure which league they're in now
451. but yeah so that model does exist around the world
452. and I think it's a model that has a lot of promise
453. you know to sort of counterbalance
454. the sort of hyper financialization of the major clubs
455. is to start really taking you know some of the other clubs
456. into this sort of fan community ownership
457. and creating a different model
458. that eventually hopefully can prove to be something
459. that people you know like and works
460. and maybe we can display some of the bigger companies and corporations over time.
461. Well, here's where I should come clean to the People's Game fans out there and listeners.
462. Since the last iteration of the People's Game, I actually got involved in trying to put forward a proposal that my beloved Everton,
463. and by the way, as you can see, in honor of the city of Liverpool, having some degree of solidarity between the two clubs there.
464. Thomas is a Liverpool FC fan and I'm an Everton fan. As you can see, we're getting along, working class solidarity, etc.
465. Bill Shankly, a great, well, Bill Shankly, great socialist.
466. We call ourselves the People's Club, whatever. Actually, the politics of the politics of of Liverpool are quite beautifully left.
467. And both clubs have associations with the left and not any other political formation throughout their long history,
468. except for the fact that they're both owned by oligarchs now, of course, and American oligarchs.
469. But in the interim, when Everton's last very considered failed ownership was putting the team up for sale and they couldn't get a bidder,
470. I actually got involved in trying to organize and see what it might take to have the fan ownership of the Liverpool club.
471. And this was something that I didn't go public with at all.
472. I was very close to doing so, but I knew that I would have to reach out to, of course, the great Evertonian fan groups.
473. And I certainly didn't want to be involved at all in presenting something that would cause a lot of harm.
474. Evertonians were very much hurting during this period. They were always suffering near relegation.
475. If people don't know, Everton is the team that has been in the top flight of English football more than any other club playing,
476. actually substantially more games than any other club.
477. So this wound to Everton, the Everton community in Liverpool
478. and around the world was very sore.
479. But I don't want to go off on this too much.
480. And oddly, by the way, the roots of my getting involved with that
481. was an almost symbolic effort in Los Angeles when the Dodgers were up for sale
482. to make a proposal for a fan ownership component for the L.A. Dodgers
483. or even the whole thing.
484. And we knew the MLB rules, et cetera,
485. but we wanted to go right into the face of that publicly.
486. It was our plan for that.
487. That never got off the ground. This one in Everton, you know, I got some meetings with people who knew what to do about this stuff, learn more about it. And by the way, I should also say, by the time the proposal was going forward and being taken seriously, there were different proposals on the table.
488. But one was in the primary one to have it be a believable strategy would be to find a group of very wealthy people or investors who would basically play the white knight role of buying up the club with the stipulation that there'd be a percent fan ownership that would increase, increase until it was majority and then step back.
489. And by the way it was very well understood that that would have allowed them to make a huge short gain if the club continued to ascend in value which is the case with premiership clubs because that the texture of the game
490. It's horrifying, horrifying to me.
491. And maybe in particular because I went through this experience,
492. to see the way the game, every single off-field breath of highest-level global football,
493. which is by far the most popular spectator sport in the world, has these unbelievable price tags to it.
494. Everything has a dollar total, as it were, a euro total or a pound total attached to it.
495. So what do you feel out there when you speak to people and you do this work around the world?
496. Do you sense that there is a groundswell of disgust at the big money and a real desire to bring this back to the communities that care most for the game,
497. both as a spectator sport and as a participatory sport?
498. My sense is that that is a yes on politically.
499. Yeah, I think so.
500. I mean, you just look at it, I mean, even Manchester United supporters protesting the
501. Glazers, you see fans of all different political persuasions marching with banners in the street
502. with Chelsea and others against Blue Co.
503. You see it almost with every single club where these big money interests come in, and then
504. they sort of just ruin the club.
505. You saw it in Switzerland with the protests against the LAFC owners.
506. You know, you just, it's country after country where these big money interests come in.
507. The teams, the fans, they get the shorthand of the stick and they protest and they get up in arms about it.
508. I mean, obviously every fan likes their team to win and likes them to buy the best player and spend money.
509. You know, that's just, you know, people like that.
510. But like when you actually think critically about it, and I think a lot of football fans do think critically about about the long term health of the game and their club.
511. I think you you will see pretty universally, at least in my experience, people think that the amount of money that's flowing into football and the extraction of money out of football is not positive for the long term.
512. welcome back one of the things we've always believed in the people's game is that especially
513. the united states and with a u.s-based podcast the public really doesn't get up to speed and
514. following the world cup till right before the world cup begins so this is our sort of brief
515. very summary version of uh you know our sense of what we're looking for going into the tournament
516. with some very simple questions.
517. So for all three of us, four sets of questions.
518. And the first one is,
519. what player are you looking forward to shining,
520. just making a magical impression
521. upon the people of the world in this World Cup?
522. What player are you really looking forward to stand out?
523. Mel, you're on the hot seat first.
524. Well, if we're not just looking at up-and-comers,
525. I wanted to mention that our Lord and Savior,
526. Guillermo Ochoa, is playing his record sixth World Cup
527. at 40 years old.
528. So there's a lot of hope for us yet.
529. You know, Ochoa is an icon.
530. As listeners of the People's Game know,
531. I'm a particular fan of goalkeepers.
532. So I am looking forward to some awesome stuff.
533. In terms of younger players,
534. an interesting player that's been very good
535. and has also done some pretty interesting stuff politically
536. is Laminia Mall from Spain.
537. He has taken some stances, you know, for Palestine and different things.
538. So that's definitely a player to watch.
539. I think he is one of the favorites for Best Young Player Award.
540. He's really good, and he's really good.
541. Yes, and Young Player of the Tournament, possibly the Player of the Tournament.
542. Fernando, your thoughts?
543. I want to bring through a player leaning on Mexico.
544. I want to see Gilberto Mora do well.
545. But at the same time, I do want to say that I prophesize that Scott McTonamay is going to do really well for Scotland as well.
546. So that would be really exciting to see.
547. The previous two seasons ago that he had with the Napoles, I think Scotland and Scott McTonamay is going to do really well during the World Cup and kind of rooting for that as well.
548. On the A's, being spoken about as a possible Ballon d'Or nominee.
549. And certainly will be if Scotland wins the World Cup, as Alistair McAllister thinks is definitely going to happen this time around.
550. Well, you know, for me, and I'm sorry this focus on El Tri, and it's sort of a weird kind of thing to highlight, but I'm very interested in number 16, a black Mexican player, Quinones, who I believe will be in the starting lineup, playing in a kind of 10-slot role.
551. He led the Saudi league in goals, where goals poured in.
552. As I said, I'm impressed with El Tri, and I think we probably have too much El Tri on our brain right now in terms of the players that we've highlighted.
553. Obviously, 48 teams.
554. There are so many incredible players.
555. By the way, I love Senegal.
556. Two of my Evertonians featured on Senegal when they won,
557. and yes, they won the African Cup of Nations.
558. That was not won by Morocco.
559. That was won by Senegal but taken away by them because they walked off the field.
560. But Idrissa Ghanegui passes prime.
561. Illumin and Jai sure can dribble,
562. but he seems worn out by the long premiership season.
563. They don't have great expectations for him.
564. I wish I could say him, but Quinones from Mexico,
565. top scorer in the Saudi League, not really a fan of the Saudi League,
566. but, you know, goals pour in there,
567. And that can produce confidence in the context where Mexico can win all three of its early games and we could really have a new national hero.
568. So on to the second round of questions, a team that you think not necessarily will win, not at all will win, but will surprise positively, and a team that will disappoint.
569. And Fernando, you're up first this time, then myself, then Mel.
570. I honestly think that the Norwegian team is going to do really well and impress a lot of people.
571. They have just a wonderful generation of players, Odegaard and Erling Haaland, and a couple of the players that play in the Serie A in Italy.
572. So I do see Norway not just impressed, but playing well and going far, going into the round of 16, even the round of eight.
573. They cleaned house in the qualifiers.
574. So I do see them going really far and impressing all of us.
575. And a team that will disappoint.
576. A team that was a point, honestly, the team that I think will be a disappointment, a huge disappointment, I'm looking at Portugal.
577. I think Portugal might, they'll definitely get into the second round, there's round 32 of the round of 16, but I don't see them going that far.
578. Portugal will be the one that I think will be a disappointment.
579. And I know that you're a fan of Bobby Martinez.
580. I think they're going to have a tough time.
581. And they're already hurt by injury.
582. And of course, they're also hurt by last year's death of Diego Jota.
583. Well, I said I'd be second and Mel will be third this time.
584. And I'm just sort of thinking with my heart here because the team that I think is going to impress and they impressed last time.
585. But I think they're going to impress again and fully establish themselves as a true global powerhouse that will be hosting the World Cup next time.
586. And that is Morocco. So how can Morocco possibly impress and surprise when they got all the way to the semifinals?
587. Well, that's because they played quite defensively last time. They were more open two World Cups ago, and I've seen them now, and they really know each other. They played beautiful connective soccer. Still a little weak on scoring goals, but I expect them to go very, very deep in a way in which they will be spoken about as performing as well as any team in the tournament as we go through the rounds.
588. There still will be a sense that maybe they won be favored come the final rounds but maybe they be seen that way differently this time I expect Morocco Disappoint I going to say USA Now I always been soft on rooting for them because I grew up as
589. a competitive soccer player in my youth in a time when it was not unrealistically entirely that
590. having grown up playing in Italy that I could play one day in the World Cup for one team,
591. the only team I could play for. I was smitten with an illness in college that took my college
592. opportunity away in the end. But I probably, realistically, wasn't as good as even as that
593. generation of American players. But of course, the target date would have been the Home World Cup.
594. USA should never have qualified in 1990. They did because Mexico was not allowed to compete for the
595. 1990 spot in Italy. And they were rotten in Italy. They were pretty rotten in 94. But could I have
596. made that team? I don't know. I've always dreamed that maybe I could. And so I've always been soft
597. on them. But now I think they're really going to disappoint. There's expectations that are high.
598. And they simply, I don't think, really have enough scoring prowess.
599. And they'll be vulnerable at the back.
600. They're just not that good at the back.
601. And so that's my sense there.
602. But, Melisa, you're up for a team to surprise positively and then disappoint.
603. Well, you took my answer because I love Morocco, too.
604. And I was actually just watching because I was going back through our social media accounts.
605. I was watching Nico Cantor, the son of the legendary Argentinian announcer Andres Cantor, going,
606. Maruecos
607. That's like been in my head all day
608. Maruecos
609. In terms of another team
610. I think Japan
611. You know not a lot of people think of Japan
612. I mean and they've been great
613. I mean they've been up there
614. They've been in the top tier
615. But if people who don't follow soccer
616. You know I think they'll be very impressed
617. I'm also curious
618. If something
619. Cool will happen out of Iran actually
620. They weren't bad the last time around, you know, actually.
621. And, you know, who knows?
622. They might have invented some asymmetric football we might be surprised by.
623. Who do I think will disappoint?
624. I think in terms of entertainment value, perhaps Brazil might go far, but they won't be as entertaining, if that makes sense.
625. I think over the last few World Cups, you have more and more of the best Brazilian players that get farmed out to Europe very, very early in their careers.
626. And so you don't, I mean, there are a few players on the squad, including the keeper and a few other folks who come from the Brazilian leagues.
627. I hate to say this because I am like a Brazil fan more than anybody.
628. There's something in the dilution of their style.
629. And I think actually L3 might be more of the carrier of the classic Latin American style than Brazil will be this tournament.
630. I'm going to follow your Brazil as a disappointment with Brazil as the winner.
631. Now, that's sort of crazy.
632. But I think they have the eyebrow behind them.
633. Carlo Angelotti.
634. In fact, one of the defining features of this World Cup is how many accomplished world-class club tournament coaches are featured in this World Cup.
635. Thomas Tuchel, Pochettino, of course, and none more than, and by the way, Roberto Martinez, who, of course, won the FA Cup with Wigan, and Carlo Ancelotti.
636. And I just think the guy has some real magic.
637. He has the two top defenders from the two Champions League finalists in PSG and Arsenal as central defense in Gabriel Martínez.
638. And Alisson, by the way, will be the starting goaltender.
639. You're mentioning the backup goaltender there from the Brazilian League.
640. And Alisson is unbelievable.
641. Go back and watch him just a year ago against PSG.
642. He's standing on his head like a hockey goal and stopping everything in the world.
643. And they simply are going to have offense.
644. Yes, I acknowledge the favorites should be Spain, France, and then somehow Argentina.
645. But I expect Brazil to be positively surprising And again Carlo Angelotti is a magician I going to say the other thought that I know is in your brain I going to say Belgium
646. You're going to say Belgium to win?
647. They played great in their warm-ups.
648. Yeah, they're solid.
649. So you think Belgium is going to show up the golden generation with a post-golden generation?
650. They still have the best goaltender in the world.
651. Top three for sure.
652. I like a dark horse.
653. Other than that, I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe Argentina.
654. I'm going to concur with you, Alan.
655. I think Brazil, you know, the last time the World Cup was played in the U.S. in 1994, Brazil took it.
656. So I think Brazil, and I concur with what you said, I think Carlos Ancelotti will become the first foreign head coach to lead a team to the World Cup.
657. I think he has the chops.
658. I think he knows the game.
659. And, you know, having Neymar on the squad one more time will definitely be an exciting thing to watch for, I think, his fourth World Cup.
660. So I think Brazil has it all.
661. I think a close second would be Spain, but I think Brazil, because of the coaching and just the sheer talent that the whole team has, will definitely be my guess to take the whole thing.
662. And for our final question, given how fraught with something that you'd like to see in terms of political expression or just the politics in general of this World Cup.
663. once again shall we say because this is not new to the world cup um taking place once again in
664. nations that are going in an authoritarian direction ice at the matches has been a huge
665. issue i think that is going to definitely perhaps touch off some things that might happen you know
666. same thing with the visa issues around not just around fans that want to come from some of the
667. 75 countries that have travel bans right now, but also some of the players, you know, like
668. Briella Mbolo and the entire South African team, which as of, what, five days ago has
669. still hadn't had their visas approved.
670. That's definitely going to be a huge issue coming up.
671. There's probably going to be some ridiculousness between Trump and Infantino.
672. That's just, you know, going to be pretty disgusting to see.
673. on the other hand i have a lot of hope that again just like the mexican teachers just like
674. you know a lot of folks who understand that this is a global spectacle and this you know if you're
675. going to have a platform to say anything or do anything this is the time to say it i'm especially
676. hopeful that maybe around some of the scotland games we have a very vibrant activist culture
677. in the Celtic world, and we'll talk about some of that later,
678. that will hopefully inspire some of our MLS fans at home.
679. And also I have to give a shout-out to my hometown, good old Los Angeles,
680. which has seen some of the fiercest resistance against ice,
681. and I expect may be a center of some really cool activism around the World Cup.
682. So those are my hopes.
683. Melissa nailed it
684. I think it's just a really weird
685. World Cup, just the fact that
686. we're living through this World Cup
687. with extravagant prices that
688. working class fans, the fans that go to the stadium
689. every weekend to fill
690. to go see LAFC or go to see
691. Chivas, Guadalajara
692. are not going to be able to make it into the games
693. at the stadiums
694. but at the same time just the political background
695. of everything that's going on
696. my hope is that
697. Iran goes really far
698. My hope is that, you know, just like four years ago, a team like Morocco goes really, really far.
699. You know in 2022 I think a lot of us were just you know I personally I was Moroccan leading up to that semifinal And so my hope is that the Iran or Egypt or Morocco or Tunisia one of the teams from the Middle East make it really far
700. My hope is that at least that there's at least either one player or one team
701. that really carries the flag and carries the torch for what's going on in the global south.
702. my hope is that one player or one team
703. really says
704. leaves the charge during the World Cup
705. and that they go really far
706. and I know that's really difficult
707. for players or teams because of
708. penalties and federations coming down
709. on them but my hope is that one of them stands up
710. and says this is
711. BS what's going on in this country
712. what's going on in this hemisphere
713. and in the world and that the fact that we're
714. just going to watch the World Cup and pretend like nothing
715. is happening
716. yeah that's my hope I hope that one of them you know does that so yeah like I'm definitely looking
717. forward to like I said these teams to go really far specifically Iran there's one thing to mention
718. I don't know it's been mentioned yet is that if Iran and the U.S. they both end up in second place
719. in their group stage in a group team in their in the group phase they face off in the round of 32
720. so that will be a really awesome thing that's right so that'll be on July 3rd that will be in
721. the day before the 250th anniversary of the birth of this country.
722. So it's something to look forward to.
723. And yeah, I guess a lot of us are looking forward to that.
724. Like I said, whether it's Iran or Egypt or Tunisia or Morocco to lead the charge.
725. So that's my hope.
726. And then people can bring little pieces of Lego to show their support.
727. I too was going to highlight Iran.
728. But in terms of really putting forward a hopeful message,
729. I would love to see the American public embrace and support the Iranian team.
730. Now, I know we can't expect that across the board, but I want to see the balance of the people do that.
731. I also look forward to expressions of solidarity with the people of Gaza.
732. In the 2022 World Cup, the Palestinian flag was frequently flown by the Moroccans as they defeated their colonial oppressors from Spain and Portugal in successive rounds on their way to the semifinals.
733. and I think their fans will have similar expressions
734. as with many teams from across the Levant and elsewhere.
735. By the way, the Norwegian team has been very good
736. in its shows of solidarity for the people of Palestine and Gaza.
737. And one might also expect to see some of that,
738. as Melissa pointed out, from the Scottish fans.
739. But also, I will say this.
740. I truly hope that in places in America
741. where there are TV screens set up outside of the stadiums
742. and all around the country and all around the world,
743. There's a deep sense of disgust with the cost of the tickets, that this is the people's game.
744. It is a game of, for, and by the working class, and that that sentiment is expressed joyously outside of the exorbitant stadiums until, hopefully, maybe, FIFA will be forced to lower its prices and the shame of empty stadiums in the United States will end.
745. People's forum for a people's game?
746. There we go.
747. Absolutely.
748. So those things all, much to hope for.
749. And, you know, one of the things that's being said in so many shows right now is that there's all this fraught politics.
750. Just like Qatar, the incredible competition, the competitiveness and the beauty of the games on the field, the narrative there will take things over.
751. I think it's going to not take it over as much, as fully as it did in Qatar, which is sad because Qatar had a lot that needed to be brought up and highlighted.
752. All that lets hope that enough popular political expression exists in the first rounds of the tournament that we can celebrate this joyous festival of football.
753. Join us at the People's Game and follow for...
754. Join us at the People's Game.
755. and follow Fernando as he's down in Mexico,
756. and follow Melissa as she recovers and makes it back for the third time.