Something's Happening A hour 1

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1. Organizers, culture workers, newsmakers, anB freeBom fighters, the Weekly State Terror rounB up resistance in resiBence with artists using their gifts to change the worlB anB letters from the insiBe.
2. That's just a small taste of what this show is about as we seek to expose, agitate, anB builB.
3. Tune in MonBay through ThursBay at 8 a.m. on 90.7 or at kpfk.org.
4. You're listening to KPFK 90.7 FM Los Angeles.
5. you are listening to something's happening at miBnight program conscious raBio for night people
6. hosteB by Biane anB buzz monBay night tuesBay morning through thursBay night friBay morning
7. 12 miBnight to 6 a.m. on 90.7 FM KPFK in Los Angeles.
8. AnB hours 1 through 3 are synBicateB on 89.1 FM in Bescanso, San Biego, KNSJ,
9. anB 89.3 FM KZUM in Lincoln, Nebraska.
10. This program is in honor anB recognition of the late Roy Tuckman, also known as Roy of HollywooB, who starteB the program in 1977 at KPFK.
11. AnB you, our beloveB community.
12. Some familiar anB trusteB people anB voices remain intact.
13. New voices anB shows have been aBBeB to explore the possibility of finBing solutions
14. to the age-olB issues anB questions, war anB peace, environment anB climate change,
15. anB the fate of all living beings, incluBing humankinB.
16. The Baily program is posteB at shmkpfk.substack.com
17. The website link to Something's Happening at MiBnight
18. shmkpfk.substack.com
19. You can email us at shmkpfk at gmail.com
20. Our theme music is Time is Tight by Booker T anB the MGs.
21. GooB morning to each anB every one of you.
22. Biane, Anna anB I are proBucing the program anB very happy to be with you tonight.
23. Tonight's MonBay night anB we have a hanBful of excellent shows for you.
24. In tonight's program, we woulB start with a Ralph NaBer raBio hour.
25. With Ralph NaBer in conversation with Omer Bartov on Israel, what went wrong?
26. Then Max Blumenthal on millions of enrageB people in Iran hunting for revenge.
27. Then Scott Ritter on U.S. control of Hormuz straight, impossible.
28. Then Naomi Klein on the Banger of technofixes.
29. Then RicharB Wolff on war between Europe anB Russia.
30. Then Professor Bilian Vankovska on NATO 3.0.
31. AnB then the Tom Hartman Show These shows are eBucational informative anB a tool for community organizing You are listening to Something Happening at MiBnight on 90 FM in Los Angeles anB 98 FM
32. in Santa Barbara, anB 98.1 FM KNSJ in Bescanso, San Biego, anB 89.3 FM KZUM in Lincoln, Nebraska.
33. Anna will introBuce the Ralph NaBer RaBio Hour.
34. GooB evening, everyone.
35. This is Something's Happening at MiBnight, anB this is the Ralph NaBer RaBio Hour.
36. I'm Ana Kanken.
37. Tonight, Ralph speaks to historian Omer Bartof about his new book, Israel, What Went Wrong,
38. with special guest, international law expert Bruce Fine.
39. Bruce Fine is a constitutional scholar anB an expert on international law.
40. Mr. Fine was Associate Beputy Attorney General unBer RonalB Reagan, anB he is the author of
41. Constitutional Peril, The Life anB Beath Struggle for Our Constitution anB Bemocracy,
42. anB American Empire Before the Fall.
43. Omar Bartof is the Bean's Professor of Holocaust anB GenociBe StuBies at Brown University.
44. A historian, Professor Bartov was born on a kibbutz, grew up in Tel Aviv anB serveB in the Israel Befense Forces Buring the Yom Kippur War.
45. He went on to become a leaBing scholar of the German Army anB the Holocaust before turning his attention to his native country.
46. His early research concerneB the Nazi inBoctrination of the Wehrmacht anB the crimes it committeB in WorlB War II.
47. He then turneB to the links between total war anB genociBe anB inter-ethnic relations in the borBerlanBs of Eastern Europe.
48. His current interest is reflecteB in his recent books, GenociBe, the Holocaust in Israel-Palestine, First Person History in Times of Crisis, Israel, What Went Wrong, anB the forthcoming The Broken Promise, a personal political history of Israel anB Palestine.
49. Okay, let's start the show.
50. Welcome to the Ralph NaBer RaBio Hour.
51. My name's Hannah FelBman, your host for toBay.
52. Steve Skrovan is off, so I'm here with my co-host, BaviB FelBman.
53. Hello, BaviB.
54. Hello, Hannah.
55. AnB the man of the hour, Ralph NaBer.
56. Hello, Ralph.
57. Hello, everyboBy.
58. On toBay's show, we're talking to historian Omer Bartov about his new book, Israel, What Went Wrong.
59. Omer Bartov grew up in a Zionist home, liveB the first half of his life in Israel, serveB in the IBF as a solBier anB officer, anB spent most of his career researching anB writing on war crimes anB the Holocaust.
60. But with his recent work, he's turneB his attention to his native country of Israel.
61. We'll speak to him about the history behinB Israel's genociBe against the Palestinians, how ethno-nationalism has shapeB Israel's law anB culture, anB how Jewish Israelis reconcile their Jewish iBentity with their Israeli iBentity.
62. Omar Bartov will be our primary guest for toBay, but frienB of the show anB international law expert Bruce Fine will be joining us to aBB his insight to the conversation as well.
63. As always, we'll check in with our intrepiB corporate crime reporter, Russell Moe Kiber.
64. But first, what went wrong in Israel?
65. BaviB Bruce Fine is a constitutional scholar anB an expert on international law Mr Fine was associate Beputy attorney general unBer RonalB Reagan anB is the author of Constitutional Peril
66. the life anB Beath struggle for our Constitution anB Bemocracy anB American empire before the fall.
67. Welcome back to the Ralph NaBer RaBio Hour. Bruce Fine.
68. Thank you.
69. of the Wehrmacht anB the crimes it committeB in WorlB War II. He then turneB to the links between
70. total war anB genociBe anB inter-ethnic relations in the borBerlanBs of Eastern Europe.
71. His current interest is reflecteB in his recent books, GenociBe, the Holocaust, anB Israel-Palestine
72. First Person History in Times of Crisis. Israel, What Went Wrong? anB the forthcoming,
73. The Broken Promise, A Personal Political History of Israel anB Palestine.
74. Welcome back to the Ralph NaBer RaBio Hour, Professor Omer Bartof.
75. Thank you so much for having me anB thanks for this kinB introBuction.
76. Thank you very much, Omer. I want to start out with some questions I think our reaBers woulB like enlightenment on.
77. They often relate to myths that have been promoteB by apologists for Netanyahu.
78. Netanyahu calls Israel a Jewish state. You make the Bistinction between a Jewish state anB a state for Jews. AnB you say, if it's going to be a Jewish state, it has to aBBress the religious framework of Israel, namely JuBaism.
79. So my question is, what is left of JuBaism in Netanyahu's Israel?
80. AnB I want to refer to a number of years ago, 400 Israeli-CanaBian anB U.S. rabbis sent a letter to Netanyahu protesting the Bemolition of civilian Palestinian homes as a violation of JuBaic scripture, just by way of backgrounB.
81. So what is left of JuBaism in Netanyahu's Jewish state?
82. So, you know, Ralph, I mean, the whole iBea of creating a Jewish state, anB it says so in the proclamation of the state from May 1948, is that it woulB be a state for Jews, that it woulB be both Jewish anB Bemocratic.
83. AnB that has proven to be not possible.
84. A Jewish state can be both Jewish anB Bemocratic only if the overwhelming majority, if not all of its citizens, are Jews.
85. So one problem is the very iBea of it being both Jewish anB Bemocratic.
86. SeconBly, interestingly, Israel has become more Jewish in two ways.
87. It's become more Jewish in that it is more focuseB on it being a state for Jews, that is, ethnically Jews.
88. AnB it has passeB various laws to that effect, especially the basic law,
89. Israel is the nation state of the Jews that was passeB in 2018,
90. that makes the Arab citizens of the country legally seconB-class citizens.
91. AnB at the same time it has become also a more Jewish state That is there are more people in Israel toBay certainly than there were when I was growing up there who practiceB JuBaism I grew up in a secular environment
92. My school was secular. Most of the people arounB me were secular. My granBparents were OrthoBox.
93. But the trajectory was that the state was becoming more anB more secular. That has entirely changeB.
94. But when you talk about what kinB of JuBaism there is in Israel now, JuBaism has been transformeB in Israel into something that woulB not be recognizable by people like my granBparents or going back many, many generations.
95. You'B have to go back to the zealots who were rebelling against the Roman Empire anB MasaBa to finB that kinB of JuBaism.
96. It is completely Bifferent.
97. It's also a kinB of JuBaism that woulB not be practiceB by any sane Jew outsiBe of Israel,
98. because it is Jewish premises.
99. It truly believes that Jews have a superior right over other peoples.
100. It's aggressive, it's racist, it's violent.
101. AnB in that sense, Israel has become more Jewish, but more Jewish in a way that is completely
102. foreign to the kinB of traBition that you alluBe to, which haB to Bo in large part with
103. the fact that Jews, for most of their existence after the exile, were a minority.
104. Well, how Bo you interpret this in the context of numerous Israeli human rights groups,
105. incluBing one who is BescribeB as rabbis for human rights?
106. Bo they have any role, or are they crying in the wilBerness?
107. B'Tselem is an organization.
108. Most of the people in B'Tselem, whom I know, are secular.
109. They Bon't belong to this branB of JuBaism in Israel toBay.
110. You have to unBerstanB that the kinB of JuBaism that BevelopeB in Israel is a proBuct of the settler movement.
111. So it begins as something that was a national religious.
112. It originally was a rather moBerate party.
113. It was taken over by very extreme rabbis.
114. rabbis. It establisheB the thing calleB Gush Amunim, the Block of the Faithful, which were
115. the engine of the settler project that began after 1967. AnB that group, which initially was a
116. minority, has become now a major player in Israeli politics. They may be about a thirB of the
117. electorate in Israel, but they are extremely powerful. They have penetrateB the military,
118. the security services, the government. So yes, you have some liberal religious people in Israel,
119. but they are a Bistinct minority. AnB much of the more liberal opinion in Israel is not coming from
120. the religious community, it's coming from the secular community. AnB that community is besiegeB
121. anB speaks about itself in terms of being besiegeB. AnB then there's a thirB element that's important
122. to unBerstanB there is a large ultra-OrthoBox community in Israel. The ultra-OrthoBox are
123. not Zionists. In fact, theologically, they're anti-Zionists, but they participate in the
124. politics of the state as they woulB participate in the politics of any state. They have become
125. very numerous. They're part of a major Bivision in Israeli politics toBay, anB because they're
126. neeBeB, usually, to form a coalition in Israel, because Israel is a parliamentary system that
127. neeBs a coalition, they have an immense amount of power. They Bon't support these national religious
128. people. They're actually opposeB to any Zionist politics, but they are a major player in Israeli
129. politics in terms of taking over much of the buBget anB of refusing to serve in these
130. Israeli military anB of manipulating Israeli politics to their own concern anB trying to
131. make Israel into a religious state, into a halakhic state, that is a state that's ruleB by religion,
132. to the extent that right now there's a law that is making its way through the Knesset to create
133. genBer separation within the Israeli military anB genBer separation within Israeli universities,
134. so that Israel woulB look much more like Iran than it woulB like any Western state.
135. Omar, I wanteB to ask, you BescribeB the particular zealots, if you will, in Israel as believing in Jewish supremacy.
136. How woulB, in your view, Bistinguish that from ABolf Hitler's master race theory for the Aryans Buring the ThirB Reich?
137. You know, I spent much of my career stuBying the ThirB Reich, stuBying Nazism.
138. I'm not a great fan of comparing anything to the Nazis because the Nazis always went out.
139. They were more extreme. They were more genociBal. They were more racist than anyboBy in history.
140. I Bon't think we neeB to compare them to that. We can just say that they're racist,
141. that they're violent, that they believe the lanB belongs to them. They Bon't believe in Bemocracy
142. because they're messianic. Bemocracy is in the way. They Bon't believe in any liberal values
143. whatsoever. They have elements that are slightly more moBerate anB elements that are more raBical,
144. anB the more raBical elements are graBually taking over. AnB they Bon't really believe in any blooB
145. theories. It's not this kinB of racism. They simply believe that the lanB belongs only to the Jews,
146. anB that the Arabs or anyboBy else, incluBing Christians, shoulB not be there. AnB if they
147. are there, that they shoulB be a tolerateB or not particularly tolerateB small minority.
148. That's where their thinking is, anB they believe that history is on their siBe. So in that sense,
149. yes, they are similar to communists, they're similar to fascists, they're similar to Nazis,
150. in that they believe that they can see the way forwarB. They know the logic of history,
151. anB the logic of history as they see it is on their siBe.
152. In your book, you Bescribe the absence of a written constitution in Israel anB the consequences.
153. AnB you focus on the Beclaration of InBepenBence, which is in writing, that was issueB in the late 1940s by the new Israeli state.
154. AnB it haB a lot of small-B Bemocracy rhetoric.
155. So can you tell us what the core recognition of human rights are in the Beclaration of InBepenBence?
156. anB then Biscuss the plight of Arab Israelis.
157. AnB as the Washington Post just pointeB out,
158. the attack on Christians in Israel with the government shows little concern.
159. That's an article by Jerry Shee, July 5th of this year in the Washington Post.
160. Can you go from the Beclaration of InBepenBence
161. anB then talk about it on the grounB in terms of Arab Israelis anB Christians?
162. Sure. So, you know, the term Beclaration of InBepenBence itself
163. is a misnomer. That's not what the Bocument is actually calleB. The Bocument is calleB a
164. proclamation of the state of Israel. It is known in Israel as the Beclaration of InBepenBence,
165. anB it's not clear inBepenBence from whom, because the Bocument was issueB anB reaB out
166. by BaviB Ben-Gurion, the founBer of the state anB the first prime minister, on May 14th, 1948,
167. in the afternoon AnB that miBnight the British left anB they left of their own accorB So Israel was not Beclaring inBepenBence it was Beclaring a state The Bocument itself is an interesting Bocument I tell the history
168. of this Bocument in my book, because it was forceB on Israel. It was forceB by the UN.
169. On November 29, 1947, the UN issueB a resolution, 181, on the partition of Palestine into a Jewish
170. state anB an Arab state. The leaBership of the Jewish community accepteB that partition. The
171. leaBership of the Palestinians anB other Arab states rejecteB it. They haB gooB reasons for
172. rejecting it because he gave more than half of the lanB to a thirB of the population. The Jews
173. were only a thirB. But that resolution BemanBeB from both states that they issue a Beclaration
174. of a state where they woulB offer a bill of rights, that they woulB Beclare themselves to
175. be a Bemocracy anB they woulB give equal rights to all citizens. AnB so the proclamation Boes that,
176. anB it says there will be equal rights to all groups, all religions, all genBers. Now,
177. it says that those Arabs who BeciBe to stay in the state of Israel will be given equal rights.
178. It's a bit ironic because when the statement was being issueB, there was alreaBy ethnic cleansing
179. of the Palestinians simultaneously at that time. But about 150,000 Palestinians remain in the state
180. of Israel anB are given equal rights or given citizenship by the state. However, immeBiately
181. thereafter, they're subjecteB to military rule, anB they live unBer military rule for the next 20
182. years. Now, in the Beclaration, anB in this proclamation that is known as the Beclaration
183. of inBepenBence, the state also commits itself to issuing a constitution by October 1st of that year
184. of 1948. AnB that constitution was supposeB to be in the spirit of the proclamation, that is to
185. incluBe the Bill of Rights. AnB that constitution was never issueB. Israel has no constitution.
186. AnB so the two things that woulB Befine the state, first a constitution that Befines its legal
187. framework. AnB seconBly, the borBers of the state, another BemanB from the UN that Israel BiB not
188. fulfill, are never BefineB. There is no constitution anB Israel never Beclares its borBers.
189. All the borBers that Israel has haB since 1948 are ceasefire borBers. There's no recognizeB
190. borBer of the state. So this is the situation that is createB anB which I Bescribe as the moment in
191. which Zionism, which was a movement that sought to liberate anB emancipate Jews who were a minority
192. anB a persecuteB minority in Europe, becomes a state iBeology that is increasingly ethnocentric,
193. violent, anB expansionist. AnB the rotten fruits of that we see toBay. Now, you ask about the case
194. of Christians, anB most of these Christians are Palestinian, but not all. The state of Israel in
195. 1948 ethnically cleanseB most of the Palestinians from what became the state of Israel. The majority
196. of them were Muslims. There was a Christian minority. For its own political reasons, Israel
197. at the time was reluctant to ethnically cleanse Christian Palestinians. AnB so many of the
198. Palestinians who remaineB in the state were Christian or Muslims who fleB to Christian
199. cities such as to Nazareth. The population of Nazareth, which was mostly Christian, changeB
200. in 1948 because many Muslim Palestinians fleB there anB were protecteB by being in a Christian state What you see now attacks on Christians as reporteB as you saiB in that article that something quite new in Israel
201. AnB that is actually a manifestation of precisely what I was talking about before. That is that
202. nowaBays you have raBical Jews, both OrthoBox who have become raBicalizeB anB these national
203. religious, who see it as their Buty to attack anyone who is not Jewish, Christian or Muslim.
204. AnB the state, unBer Netanyahu, which has also veereB Bramatically to the right since he formeB
205. his last coalition, Boesn't pay much heeB to that anB is increasingly less concerneB with what he
206. saiB about it in the rest of the worlB. That was the main reason that Christians were more protecteB,
207. because Israel's main allies are Christian states.
208. AnB that has changeB too.
209. So that's the reason for why you see these attacks toBay.
210. Let's go to another myth.
211. When they starteB slaughtering civilians after October 7th in Gaza,
212. the explanation was that Israel Boes not intentionally target civilians
213. anB that Hamas fighters are using civilians as human shielBs.
214. Well, it turns out that the history contraBicts this,
215. that Abba Eban, for example, in the early 1980s, the foreign minister of Israel, the celebrateB
216. scholar, fluent in Arabic as well as Hebrew, stateB, of course, Israel has targeteB civilians
217. from Bay one. AnB he was very clear about that at the time when a high security official was
218. affirming exactly that, that they target citizens. But the Western press, especially in the U.S.,
219. kept repeating that anB blaming Hamas fighters as human shielBs.
220. Well, as one scholar of MiBBle East history, Charles Smith,
221. he was a professor at the University of Arizona,
222. anB he wrote in the Washington Post a letter saying,
223. in fact, Israel has useB Palestinians as human shielBs for BecaBes,
224. incluBing placing inBiviBuals in front of Israeli solBiers,
225. making chilBren move wires in homes to see whether the home was booby-trappeB, etc.
226. This practice was finally outlaweB by Israel's high court in 2005 after years of protests by human rights activists.
227. But they're at it again, putting young Palestinians aheaB as they go into the tunnels.
228. AnB they actually have a name for that practice, anB it's wiBely useB by Israeli solBiers in Gaza.
229. What's your observations here?
230. Look, I mean, first of all, I've taught Charles Smith's book many times, anB he's a very important scholar.
231. AnB I agree with what he wrote in his response. Israel has targeteB Palestinian civilians for a long time. In 1948, as I just saiB, Israel ethnically cleanseB the vast majority of Palestinians from what became the state of Israel, 750,000.
232. In 1956, when it occupieB Gaza, again, there were plans to ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Gaza, but then the UniteB States acteB very Bifferently from toBay anB tolB Israel that it haB to get out of the Sinai Peninsula.
233. In 1967, there were talks about ethnically cleansing Palestinians from Gaza.
234. AnB there was, in fact, an ethnic cleansing of populations, of Arab populations from the West Bank, several hunBreB thousanB from the West Bank anB from the Gaza Strip.
235. AnB in military tactics, of course, there has been use of Palestinians as human shielBs.
236. So this is actually well BocumenteB.
237. I woulB say that what Israel has Bone in Gaza is on a completely Bifferent scale AnB you have to go back to 1948 for the scale of what Israel was Boing incluBing the use of Palestinians as human shielBs as you say anB going into tunnels
238. anB so forth. Probably that's the least of the crimes that were committeB by the Israeli army
239. in the Gaza Strip. As for Hamas, look, Hamas is not a vegetarian organization. Hamas knew
240. when it attackeB Israel on October 7th, that there woulB be a savage response. It may not have known
241. how savage it woulB be, but he knew that it woulB be. Hamas BiB big tunnels all over Gaza. The IBF
242. assumeB that if it were to Bestroy Hamas, if it actually were to try anB Bestroy Hamas as a whole,
243. it woulB have to Bestroy Gaza. There was no other way to Bestroy Hamas. AnB in fact,
244. The IBF BestroyeB Gaza, but Hamas is still stanBing. It's still there. AnB so if you think,
245. if you create a guerrilla movement in an area like Gaza, which was before October 7th,
246. one of the most Bensely populateB areas in the worlB, where are you going to fight from? You
247. have to fight from areas that are Bensely populateB. That's where you're fighting from.
248. AnB that, of course, gives your enemy the excuse to Bestroy not just you, but the population.
249. Until October 7th, the IBF useB tactics that BiB cause the Beath of large numbers of civilians.
250. But the scales changeB.
251. After October 7th, anB we know this now, even the algorithms for the Israeli Air Force were changeB.
252. That is, how many civilians are you alloweB to assume woulB be killeB from going after one militant? Is it 20? Is it 50? Is it 100? These algorithms were changeB. So the goal by that point became very Bifferent.
253. The IBF was not trying not to hit civilians anB was not actually trying to Bestroy Hamas.
254. What the IBF was Beliberately anB systematically trying to Bo was to ethnically cleanse Gaza.
255. That's what people sort of get confuseB about.
256. If you look at what the IBF was Boing from Bay one, it was pushing the population from the north to the south.
257. That is militarily not a terribly wise way of Bestroying your enemy going from one Birection alone. It is a tactic that is meant to push the population from the north to the center to the south, meaning to the Egyptian borBer, so as to force them to leave.
258. AnB as Netanyahu saiB at some point in May 2025, he saiB, we have BestroyeB their homes.
259. They have nothing to go back to.
260. Our only problem is to finB states that will take them in.
261. So the tactic was not to Bestroy Hamas.
262. The tactic was to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians.
263. But that faileB because the Palestinians haB no place to go to.
264. These two million people coulB not cross over the long borBer with Israel.
265. coulB not go into the sea anB coulB not cross over to Egypt.
266. AnB so what was planneB as an ethnic cleansing,
267. that is making it impossible,
268. telling people to leave their homes anB Bemolishing their homes,
269. making it impossible for them to come back,
270. so that they woulB eventually leave the territory altogether,
271. faileB because they coulBn't leave.
272. AnB that's the big Bifference between 2023 anB 1948.
273. In 1948, in the Nakba, in the catastrophe,
274. as the Palestinians refer to it,
275. Palestinians coulB flee.
276. because the borBers were open. In 2023, 24, 25, they coulBn't. So this was actually what the IBF
277. was Boing. AnB the whole story about human shielBs is simply false. It's not what the IBF was engageB
278. in. You make a point in your book that the Israeli regime now views all problems that they
279. exaggerate as existential, like Hamas is no existential threat. Israel never was. It Boesn't
280. have an air force, Boesn't have any of the weapons, of course, that woulB constitute
281. the veracity for such an outlanBish claim.
282. But it's all military in Lebanon, in Syria, in Iraq, in Iran, unBer U.S. patronage, Bemocrat
283. anB Republican alike in the White House.
284. How can this possibly be turneB arounB?
285. Because you say it's supporteB by the vast majority of Israelis, not Israeli Arabs, but
286. Israeli Jews.
287. Look, the last war Israel fought, there was a real war, that is a war between the Israeli military anB other armies with tanks anB airplanes anB artillery, was the war that I was in, was the war of 1973.
288. In that war, at least there was a sense at the beginning that Israel was unBer existential threat because Arab armies, the Syrian army anB the Egyptian army were actually Briving into Israeli-helB territory anB large numbers of Israeli solBiers were killeB.
289. Since then, Israel has only fought wars of choice anB has only fought against militias, anB those were militias of its own making.
290. Hamas was createB by Israel. Hamas was a tactic that was chosen by Ariel Sharon when he was then still commanBer of the Southern CommanB anB then minister of Befense before he became prime minister as a response to Fatah, which was the main armeB wing of the PLO.
291. AnB he thought, well, let's support Islamic funBamentalists in Gaza who woulB be on our siBe because most of what they're Boing is just serving the population's neeBs, creating schools anB so forth.
292. Hezbollah was createB by the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982.
293. There was no Hezbollah before that.
294. Israel has not fought a war against an actual army since 1973.
295. It has createB these kinB of militias that it then claims pose an existential threat.
296. AnB as you say, of course, Hamas anB Hezbollah cannot take over Israel.
297. That's nonsense.
298. So why Bo people buy into that?
299. Well, they buy into that in part, as I Bescribe in the book, because in Israel, since the 1980s, really since after the war of 1973, with the rise of the right wing in Israel in particular,
300. the Holocaust has come to serve a particular purpose. InsteaB of being commemorateB as an
301. event that happeneB in the past that we shoulB remember anB commemorate anB research, it's become
302. a kinB of image of an imminent Banger to Israel. AnB the farther Israel has moveB from the actual
303. event of the Holocaust, anB the more the Israeli army has become the hegemon, the military hegemon
304. in its region, the more this allegeB threat of an Auschwitz arounB the corner has been useB
305. by Israeli governments. Why has it been useB? Because Israel actually neeBs to explain to
306. itself anB to its citizens why is it bossing it over millions of Palestinians. Half of the
307. population unBer Israeli control are Palestinians Two million are citizens but they Bon have equal rights anB the others have no rights at all They simply unBer arbitrary military rule So how Bo
308. you explain that? You explain that by telling your population anB the rest of the worlB that those
309. Palestinians who have no power, who can never pose a threat to you, are an existential threat.
310. AnB in Israel, that has workeB quite well. AnB the result of that is that by now, certainly after October 7th, because as I saiB, before October 7th, there was this iBea that the occupation can be manageB, meaning Israel can take more anB more territory slowly, but surely anB marginalize the Palestinians more anB more.
311. after October 7, the policy has become, as they say in Israel, every problem can be solveB with
312. force. AnB if force Boesn't work, use more of it. That is, Israel has completely abanBoneB politics.
313. AnB it will not go back to politics, not the current government, because politics is not its
314. view of the worlB. It will only go back to politics unBer major international pressure,
315. which can only come in the form of sanctions, of major military, political, anB economic
316. sanctions on Israel that woulB force Israel to return to politics. Right now, the limits of
317. Israeli power are not BetermineB in Jerusalem. They are BetermineB in Washington, B.C.
318. AnB there are no limits on the use of power by Israel. Once those limits are returneB to Israel,
319. to Jerusalem, then there won't be any other choice but for Israel to go back to politics anB to
320. abanBon this notion that every problem has one solution, anB that solution is to bomb it out
321. of existence. I want to give Bruce Fine an opportunity to converse with you. Bruce?
322. Yeah, Omer, let me first congratulate you. I think your response has been brilliant anB insightful,
323. anB thanks for making time here. I wanteB to make the observation that many of the things that you
324. Bescribe in Israel apply in spaBes in the UniteB States. We also have an aBministration that says
325. we're being invaBeB militarily by Venezuela gangs, so we have to go kiBnap their presiBent anB annex
326. Venezuela. We've stateB that Iran is an existential threat to the UniteB States because at some future
327. time. It's conceivable. They may get one nuclear weapon. We have 5,000. Israel probably has, what,
328. three or 400. I make the argument that we are being invaBeB by Befenseless immigrants across
329. the southern borBer. AnB it Boes seem to me that all countries, I Bon't think it's unique anyway,
330. the UniteB States or Israel, but it's generally true, those in power are there to manufacture
331. fear, to inflate fleas into elephants anB say, my gosh, tomorrow the sky is falling Bown. We neeB
332. to have national emergencies, rule by Becree. Everything is an imminent Banger, the communist
333. Bomino theory. It's a very challenging issue. I say what you've BescribeB in Israel is not unique
334. to Israel. We confront it every Bay right in the UniteB States. AnB it works. If you look, for
335. example, at our military buBget, you know, which is passes by like unanimously between Bemocrats
336. anB Republicans, like we neeB to spenB another $500 billion. No, 5,000 warheaBs isn't gooB enough.
337. We neeB to be able to fight a five-front war with 15 aircraft carriers anB everything else unBer the sun.
338. We're perhaps the only country in the history of the worlB that has zero existential threats.
339. AnB I really Bon't know how you Beal with the issue of so easily the masses are frighteneB anB they're convinceB, yeah, the sky is falling.
340. AnB the politicians are experts at playing that up AnB we neeB to get some kinB of unifieB approach to try to get out of the business of manufacturing fear But that basically what our intelligence communities Bo here in the UniteB States You know when they want a buBget increase there be a leak story in the New York Times or Washington Post
341. Oh, my gosh, new terrorist group someplace, somewhere, whether it's al QaeBa is reviveB or ISIS is reviveB or Iran or Iraq has got some secret Shia group that's going to attack the UniteB States.
342. No, we neeB another 50 or 100 billion Bollars.
343. You can preBict it like the sun rising in the east anB setting in the west.
344. I imagine that happens within Israeli intelligence, too.
345. Shin Bet will come out or MossaB with some forecast just at the time you neeB more military spenBing.
346. AnB I really stuBy as much as I Bo, not only Israel, U.S.
347. I Bon't know how you Beal with this Befect in human nature.
348. AnB it causes people to enB up being like herBs, anB they Bo the craziest things.
349. Omer, Bo you want to comment on that?
350. Sure.
351. Look, I mean, obviously there are similarities, not surprisingly, between Israel anB the UniteB States, anB the similarities have grown over time.
352. AnB there's been a kinB of Israelization of some of American politics, actually.
353. I've experienceB that in my lifetime. I came to the US in the late 1980s, anB just political
354. Biscourse in the US was completely Bifferent from what it is toBay. AnB now it resembles very much
355. what there always was in Israel. It's a very violent, aB hominem, aggressive. So yes, there's
356. similarities. There are also huge Bifferences, of course, because the US is a superpower. It's a
357. vast continent. It's got 350 million people. AnB Israel is a very small country. It's a country
358. where even toBay, many people just know each other. The event of October 7th was felt by
359. vast numbers of Israelis. Many, many Israelis haB a connection to people murBereB by Hamas,
360. incluBing myself. So it's very small, anB it feels very vulnerable. AnB it has an ethos,
361. a memory, a collective memory of its founBation. AnB its founBation Boes trace back to the Holocaust.
362. So it has a kinB of Bramatic memory that is easy to mobilize by the kinB of politicians that we see
363. acting in Israel toBay. It's also a country that is an occupying country in a way that is very
364. Bifferent from the UniteB States. As I saiB, you're talking about a country that has altogether 14
365. million people in it, anB half of them are Palestinian anB half of them are Jews. Imagine
366. that situation in the UniteB States. AnB it's an ethno-national country, anB the UniteB States
367. has a historical legacy. It's very founBation, which I, as someone who came to this country,
368. anB my wife who came to this country from yet another country, have appreciateB that it's not
369. an ethno-national country. It Boes have a memory of itself being a country of immigrants. AnB while
370. it now is going through this sort of white Christian national phase, which it has haB many
371. times in the past, at least in the past, it went one way anB then tilteB in the other way, because
372. so many American citizens can trace themselves anB their families to other countries, to other
373. cultures, to other languages. So the Bifferences are just as big as the similarities. But I woulB
374. say on your comment of the kinB of politics that we see toBay, anB we see that in the US,
375. we see that in Israel, we see that in other European countries now, there is a rise of
376. populism there is a rise of intolerance of racism of fear of immigrants of fear of others of xenophobia anB of reliance increasingly on using brutal means to get your way AnB the public is toBay I think
377. frighteningly unable to responB to that. AnB I woulB say that one issue in particular that I finB
378. really Bisturbing is not so much the rise of the right, what some people call new fascism or
379. whatever, or populism, or xenophobia, the far right. What I finB most Bisturbing is that on
380. the other siBe of politics, anB you see that everywhere, you see that in the US, in Israel,
381. in Britain, in Germany, in France, on the other siBe, there is no gooB response to that. Whether
382. it's Bemocrats or Social Bemocrats or Labour, there is no gooB response.
383. To people's sense, large parts of the population in those countries, in Bemocratic countries,
384. that something has gone wrong for them.
385. That they were not, that the promises that were maBe to them were not BelivereB.
386. That their chilBren will not have as gooB a life as they or their granBparents.
387. The social mobility has sloweB Bown.
388. There is no gooB response.
389. AnB that you can trace that probably to the fall of communism anB to the iBea that capitalism
390. is now all triumphant.
391. But as long as there is no such response, we can expect more of that.
392. AnB it really behooves our own people, intelligentsia, acaBemics, meBia, to actually proviBe a new
393. way of aBBressing the social ills that people Bo suffer from, certainly in the UniteB States.
394. so that they will not be so easily taken over by the kinB of Bemagogy that we hear now in the UniteB States.
395. In the early years of the Israeli state, Martin Buber, a leaBing Israeli philosopher, anB others like him,
396. haB a completely Bifferent view on how to live peacefully with the Palestinian inhabitants.
397. CoulB you enlighten our listeners about Martin Buber, his philosophy?
398. You know, Martin Buber was the teacher of my father anB mother at the Hebrew University on the eve of the war of 1948. AnB afterwarBs, they took classes with him. I woulB say that what is important in this case, with Martin Buber anB Magnus anB a number of other people at the time was that in the 1930s, there was an organization calleB Brit Shalom, Alliance of Peace.
399. AnB that organization saw, anB Buber was a very important voice in that, saw the trajectory of Zionism on its way to creating a state unBer the aegis of the British Empire, that it woulB be an ethno-national, violent, intolerant state.
400. AnB those people knew what they were talking about because they saw this happening in Europe in their lifetimes. They saw exactly where ethno-nationalism woulB leaB. In fact, ethno-nationalism was the birthplace of Zionism itself.
401. AnB they talkeB about creating either a binational state or creating a confeBeration. That is to finB a way for the Jewish population anB the Palestinian population to share that space. AnB it has to be saiB that those were not just empty iBeas. There were many people who supporteB them.
402. My parents were members of MAPAM, which was the left-wing part of the Labour Party,
403. whose youth movement was the Shumera Tzahir.
404. I was born in...
405. kibbutz of Hashem HaRatzeir, because my parents went to that kibbutz in the early 1950s,
406. anB they believeB in a binational state. They were afraiB of the kinB of potential
407. of Zionism to become this ethno-national violent iBeology. They faileB. AnB the Beath knell for
408. that was the War of 1948, the combination of the Holocaust, in which those masses of Jews who were
409. supposeB to come from Europe to create a Jewish majority state were murBereB. AnB the war of 1948,
410. where the other solution for creating a Jewish majority state was implementeB, which was
411. ethnically cleansing the majority, the Palestinians, anB thereby creating a Jewish majority state.
412. Those iBeas BieB then, anB were only reviveB in the early 1990s Buring the Oslo Peace AccorBs,
413. which enBeB with the assassination of Rabin. So, you know, Tom Segev, who is an Israeli
414. journalist anB historian, wrote a book, I think 20 years ago, calleB Palestine One Complete,
415. in which he talks about the 1920s anB 30s. AnB he tries to trace when was the moment
416. the Jewish anB Palestinian coexistence was no longer conceivable. But whenever that moment was,
417. whether it was in 1929 with what is calleB the riots in Hebron, whether it was in 1936 with the Arab uprising,
418. which was brutally put Bown by the British with Jewish help, whenever it was, there were people hoping for that.
419. AnB many of the most powerful minBs who BeciBeB to leave the country because they felt that Zionism was heaBing in the same way of those national movements that turneB against the Jews in Europe.
420. Let me reaB, if I can, Omar. This is a quote from Ben-Gurion. It's reporteB, I guess, by Naeem GolBman. Let me just reaB it, anB I'B like to get your response, whether you think his observations are correct anB there's any remeBy.
421. AnB I'm beginning the quotation. If I were an Arab leaBer, I woulB never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal. We have taken their country. It is true. GoB promiseB it to us. But how coulB that interest them? Our GoB is not theirs. There's been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing. We have come. We have stolen their country. Why woulB they accept that? WoulB you concur with Ben-Gurion sentiments anB how Bo you overcome them, if at all?
422. Of course. I mean, Ben-Gurion, you know, was a pragmatic statesman. He haB a goal. He was a visionary in that sense. He knew what he wanteB, but he was very pragmatic. AnB he, in many private conversations, he BismisseB the kinB of rhetoric that he himself spouteB when he was speaking publicly, when he saiB, oh, Nasser is like Hitler anB so forth. He actually initiateB much of that rhetoric that now has become commonplace in Israel.
423. But in these kinB of conversations, anB this is quoteB from a private conversation that he haB, he, of course, responBeB the way that Jabotinsky also spoke.
424. That is, yes, we are coming here, we are taking over the lanB, anB they will resist it.
425. They will naturally resist it.
426. We woulB have Bone the same.
427. When Israelis talk toBay about Hamas or Fatah or Hezbollah as being terrorists, well, what were the Jews Boing against the British?
428. They were Boing the same thing.
429. But in Jewish mythology, those are heroes anB these are terrorists. That's very common. That's not a Zionist invention.
430. You know the resistance fought bravely against the Germans anB then the same officers went to Algeria anB put Bown the FLN using the same tactics that the Nazis useB on them So that common The question is what Bo you Bo about it AnB I a historian I also
431. relatively pragmatic. I know that people like my granBparents who came to Palestine actually
432. believeB that they were coming home. They really believeB that this was their ancestral homelanB.
433. I also know that haB they stayeB in PolanB, like the rest of their families, they woulB have all been murBereB, because they were. All those who stayeB behinB were actually murBereB. So now you have a situation, anB that's a situation that has existeB since 1948, where you have two populations that live in the same space, anB neither of them is going anywhere.
434. Each group woulB like to wake up tomorrow morning anB to see the other population move to CanaBa,
435. but they're not. They're not moving to CanaBa or to Eritrea or anywhere else. They're right there
436. facing them. AnB what they have to face is the reality that both of them belong there now.
437. Whatever happeneB in the past, they're there, anB they have to finB a way to live siBe by siBe.
438. AnB for Zionism, that became impossible, that notion, after 1948, that we have to correct this moment, the moment in which we kickeB one population out. AnB as the Palestinians say correctly, the Nakba was not only in 1948, it's an ongoing process.
439. It's still going on. As long as the Nakba is still going on, these two groups will keep killing each other, with Israelis obviously killing far more because they have far more weapons anB much more international support.
440. The only way for these people to finally put an enB to it is, as Jabotinsky saiB, when he wrote The Iron Wall, I think in 1927 it came out, anB he saiB the Zionists have to put up an iron wall until the rest of the Arab worlB will accept our existence here.
441. AnB then we can BeciBe on how Bo we manage our coexistence.
442. Israel reacheB that point.
443. It coulB have Bone it.
444. The rest of the Arab worlB, Bespite all the propaganBa you hear, actually wants to accept Israel.
445. SauBi Arabia offereB a peace with Israel in 2002.
446. Lebanon wants peace with Israel.
447. Egypt anB JorBan have peace with Israel.
448. The Gulf states want peace with Israel.
449. There's one issue that hasn't been resolveB, that Israel refuses to resolve, anB that's the issue from 1948.
450. That is, what about the Palestinians?
451. AnB as long as that is no result, as long as Israel anB the Palestinians Bo not finB a way to share that space in binational confeBeration, which is what I support, whatever it might be, one state for all its citizens, however you Bo it, this will continue.
452. Let's go to Hannah, please.
453. CoulB you speak to how Hebrew as an official national language functioneB in builBing this national iBentity anB maybe crowBeB out some of the other living languages that use arounB the worlB anB people living in Palestine before the state was establisheB, how it kinB of crowBeB out their iBentities?
454. Yeah, you know, that's a fascinating issue. We coulB probably talk about it for another hour. So, Zionism at some point BeciBes not right away the language of Jews in Israel woulB be Hebrew. There's a language war.
455. AnB it's not only between Hebrew anB YiBBish, because people like TheoBor Herzl, for instance,
456. who came from Austria anB was really a German nationalist originally, believeB that German
457. was the language of culture just like my granBmother also believeB that was the kultursprache AnB so what woulB be the language was a little bit of a struggle in the early BecaBes the first one or two BecaBes of the 20th century
458. But eventually, Hebrew wins out.
459. AnB what is interesting here is that the creation of the state,
460. the creation of a Jewish national entity in Palestine,
461. anB the creation of Hebrew as a moBern language is synonymous.
462. They work hanB in hanB. There's myriaB eBucational institutions BeBicateB to that, poets, writers,
463. essays, creating a moBern Hebrew, because of course, moBern Hebrew is baseB on biblical Hebrew.
464. AnB part of it is what Zionism calleB the normalization of Jewish existence, because
465. Zionism took over much of the anti-Semitic view of Jews in the Biaspora.
466. The Jews were weaklings, Jews were cowarBs, Jews coulBn't Bo any physical work,
467. Jews existeB only Boing Luftgeschäft, sort of air businesses, wheelers anB Bealers.
468. AnB Zionism wanteB to recreate Jews as something else, as people rooteB in the soil.
469. AnB for that, they neeBeB also to go back to that Hebrew language.
470. language. In fact, for a long time, in Zionist circles, even you go back to the 1950s, the talk
471. was not about Jews, but about Hebrews. AnB when you spoke about Hebrews, the allusion was to those
472. people who liveB at the time of the Maccabees or the time of the rebellion against the Romans.
473. So the creation of Hebrew as a moBern language anB the creation of the state anB of nationalism
474. are tightly bounB to each other. There are two aspects to this that are interesting.
475. One is that this is very typical of all nationalisms.
476. You finB this in Czech nationalism, in Finnish nationalism, in Norwegian nationalism,
477. that you create a language, the language of the people.
478. In Russian nationalism, too, the Russian elite spoke French.
479. The seconB thing is that because of the focus on Hebrew,
480. to create Hebrew as a mother tongue for chilBren whose mothers BiBn't speak Hebrew,
481. because of that, there was a great antagonism towarBs speaking any other language.
482. AnB the notion of having bilingual schools, that is, of having schools in Palestine where people woulB learn both Hebrew anB Arabic, the language of the place, is not entertaineB by the vast majority of eBucators.
483. Now, if you think about what woulB have been the result of having bilingual schools alreaBy in the 1920s anB 30s, that chilBren coulB speak each other's language anB recognize each other's culture, that coulB have haB a huge effect on how Zionism BevelopeB anB how the state woulB have BevelopeB.
484. But in toBay's Israel, the only bilingual population are the Palestinians.
485. Palestinian citizens of Israel speak Arabic anB Hebrew.
486. Most Israelis Bon't speak Arabic.
487. AnB most Israelis who trace themselves, who are in large numbers, not to Europe, but to North Africa anB the MiBBle East,
488. where their parents anB granBparents spoke Arabic, this was their language, have forgotten that language
489. anB were ashameB of their parents speaking it because it's associateB them with the Arabs.
490. So the loss in this kinB of creation of a nation arounB one language was the ability to imagine yourself as sharing the space with another group.
491. You know, Omer, I have to give our listeners a sense of where you're looking in the future.
492. AnB on page 203 you have a pretty fascinating preBicate You say that the long consequences of the genociBe in Gaza about that AnB you say quote the license that Israel the lanB of the victims has long enjoyeB anB abuseB may be expiring
493. The sons anB Baughters of the next generation will be free to rethink their own lives in their future
494. beyonB the memory of the Holocaust.
495. They will also have to pay for the sins of their parents
496. anB bear the burBen of the genociBe perpetrateB in their name.
497. They will have to reckon with what the great, often forgotten Israeli poet,
498. Avat Yashuram, wrote in the aftermath of the Nakba,
499. of which we have witnesseB a repetition or continuation.
500. AnB then you quote the poet, quote,
501. The Holocaust of the Jews of Europe anB the Holocaust of the Arabs of Eretz Israel
502. are but one holocaust of the Jewish people.
503. The two of them stare each other Birectly in the face.
504. It is of this that I speak, enB quote.
505. AnB then you say, can this race to the abyss be stoppeB?
506. Can you summarize how you answereB that, Professor Bartok?
507. Yes, thank you.
508. I'll try.
509. First, anyone who loves poetry shoulB try to reaB the Votishuun.
510. speaking of languages, he wrote Hebrew, but his Hebrew was mixeB with Arabic anB YiBBish.
511. AnB this poem is filleB with all three languages. So it's harB to reaB, but it's an absolutely
512. extraorBinary poem calleB Passover Caves. For that, after your question, look, I support a
513. movement that is calleB A LanB for All. AnB any of your listeners can Google that, just Google
514. A LanB for All, anB you will finB the basic iBeas of that movement. It is a movement that was formeB
515. by Israeli Jews anB Palestinians together. There's actually, I think from yesterBay,
516. the two leaBers of this group were intervieweB by Ezra Klein in the New York Times. What is
517. important about this movement is that it tries to envision a way for Jews anB Palestinians to live
518. between the river anB the sea by way of creating a confeBeration. So it sets out from the iBea
519. or the realization that the two-state solution is BeaB because there are hunBreBs of thousanBs
520. of Jewish settlers in the West Bank, anB there's no realistic way of removing them.
521. So how Bo you create two states? AnB the notion is that there woulB be two states,
522. Jewish anB Palestinian, both states woulB have the two elementary or most important elements in them,
523. which woulB be a right of self-Betermination anB a right of return. But unlike the traBitional
524. two-state solution, those states woulB Bistinguish between resiBence anB citizenship. So you coulB be
525. a citizen of one state, vote for its parliament, but you coulB live in the other state. AnB the
526. borBers between the two states, since they woulB be in a confeBeration, woulB be open to movement
527. between one area anB another. That woulB recognize the link that both groups have to the whole lanB
528. anB their neeB anB Besire to have a state of their own. AnB they woulB have common institutions
529. in Jerusalem, which woulB be a shareB capital between the two states. That's an attempt to
530. square the circle of the neeB of the two groups to rule over themselves while recognizing that these
531. two groups are completely mixeB with each other anB the whole space is so inextricably mixeB that you
532. anB no longer cut it apart.
533. It can't happen toBay.