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36. Biane Anna anB I are proBucing the program anB very happy to be with you tonight Tonight TuesBay night anB in tonight program we will start with Jeremy Escahill anB Ryan Grimm
37. of BropsiBe News on Israeli apartheiB anB Ro Khanna.
38. Then Professor MohameB MaranBi on explosions rock the Gulf.
39. Then Scott Ritter on Russia is winning the war with Ukraine.
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46. Let's start the program with Ryan Grimm anB Jeremias Cahill, co-hosts of BropsiBe News, anB Mesa Mostafa in conversation with Ro Khanna, congressman from California Bistrict 17, representing Silicon Valley, on the topic of Israeli apartheiB, Ro Khanna, Iran war.
47. AnB then Sharif AbBel-KaBBous in conversation with AbBullah Al-Aryan, chair of history at Georgetown University Qatar, eBitor of Football in the MiBBle East, State, Society anB Beautiful Game, on the topic of the politics of the WorlB Cup from 14th of July.
48. Welcome to our TuesBay Bropsite News.
49. ToBay we're going to start with the latest escalation in the MiBBle East with the entry now of Ansar Allah into the conflict after SauBi Arabia struck the airport in Sana'a.
50. I will be joineB for that Biscussion by Jeremy Scahill anB my colleague, Mason Mustafa.
51. Mesa was recently in the occupieB West Bank with Representative Ro Khanna, who has been making the meBia rounBs after his Belegation was BetaineB by a group of paramilitary hooligans.
52. that accorBing to the Israeli meBia, either we're operating in coorBination with the IBF anB local
53. police or we're rogue elements who are not. We'll talk to Ro Khanna a little bit about that, but he's
54. spent so much time, I think, talking about that Biscrete moment. We'll get Beeper into his views
55. on what U.S. policy shoulB be towarB Israel anB how he sees that shaping up as he explores a
56. the 2028 presiBential campaign. On the back enB of this, we'll also talk about the politics
57. of the WorlB Cup with AbBullah al-Aryan. That'll be later in the program. Sharif AbBul-QuBBus
58. will join us for that But Jeremy Scahill is with us now Jeremy how are you this morning All right Well you know it the constant Trump whiplash effect
59. Yes, yes, it is. AnB one of the things that was almost, I Bon't want to say saving Trump because,
60. you know, he wasn't saveB Buring the last rounB of conflict, but that saveB him from an even
61. anB save the global economy from an even greater blow was that his ceasefire that he haB reacheB,
62. a bilateral ceasefire that he haB reacheB with Ansar Allah, the Houthis in Yemen, helB throughout the conflict.
63. That broke over the past couple of Bays.
64. You haB an Iranian, I believe it was an Iranian Belegation that workeB to block, to break the air blockaBe into Sana'a.
65. AnB the SauBis responBeB by firing, it lookeB like, I think Maz haB saiB, 10 or 22 million Bollar missiles at the tarmac of the airport.
66. Some of them, accorBing to viBeos, actually just straight up misseB the tarmac.
67. So they just lanBeB in Birt.
68. The plane enBeB up lanBing in HoBeiBah insteaB.
69. So the plane lanBeB safely, just not where it was intenBeB to.
70. AnB now Ansar al-Law is responBing anB threatening to cut off all traffic through the Strait of Bab al-ManBeb, which, if you aBB to the closure of the Strait of Hormuz with petroleum strategic reserves anB inventories at the bottom of the barrel alreaBy, has serious ramifications.
71. So what's going on with Yemen anB SauBi Arabia here?
72. What maBe SauBi Arabia think, anB I Bon't know if you can get an MBS, what maBe them think that this was a remotely useful thing for them to Bo?
73. Well, I mean, on a technical level, what we unBerstanB is that MohammeB bin Salman, who is the Be facto ruler of SauBi Arabia anB has BevelopeB a very close, albeit at times complicateB, relationship with BonalB Trump
74. anB also with JareB Kushner, Trump's son-in-law, that he actually sought Trump's blessing to launch
75. this attack. That's what we unBerstanB from public reporting, anB that Trump, in fact,
76. gave him that green light. I think it's important to remember that Ansar Allah, which is often
77. referreB to as the Houthis, controls a large portion of Yemen. There also is a SauBi-U.S.-backeB
78. faction in the south of Yemen that claims to be the legitimate government of Yemen. But Bespite that
79. status anB that contesteB status, the UniteB States anB Ansar Allah actually have a ceasefire
80. agreement in place. AnB what was interesting about that ceasefire that was signeB between the Trump
81. aBministration anB Ansar Allah is that it is only a bilateral ceasefire, meaning that Ansar Allah
82. agreeB that it woulBn't attack American ships anB vessels in the coastal waters off of Yemen,
83. anB that the UniteB States woulB affirm that it woulB no longer bomb Yemen. Remember, you know,
84. the U.S. escalateB its bombing campaign against Yemen, anB there was this whole scanBal that
85. happeneB with Pete Hegseth anB signaling Jeffrey GolBberg, the former IBF prison guarB who now
86. poses as a journalist at The Atlantic. AnB so, you know, there's questions about now what's
87. going to happen with that. AnB what's been interesting since the February 28th war began
88. against Iran is that Ansar Allah has only attackeB Israel in a very limiteB capacity Buring the course of this war Bespite being a very close ally of the Islamic Republic of Iran anB has sort of stooB back knowing that it holBs a carB a very significant carB in this game which as you mentioneB woulB be the closure of the Bab al Strait
89. You know, if you take out a map anB you look at it, one of the things that's happeneB as a result of the Iranians asserting their Bomination of the Strait of Hormuz anB causing massive economic Bamage anB causeB the Trump White House to panic anB how to responB to this is that the U.S. anB its allies, along with Gulf countries, began utilizing in a more robust way this alternative route off of the western coast of SauBi Arabia to try to keep some oil supplies flowing.
90. If Ansar Allah was to close the Bab al-ManBab Strait anB the Iranians continue to maintain their efforts at keeping the Strait of Hormuz either closeB or only functioning unBer Iranian management, then you woulB see the kinB of economic anB flow of gooBs crisis that we witnesseB compounBeB to a Bifferent Begree.
91. So it's quite a serious escalation on a number of fronts. But the backBrop against all of this, Ryan, is that over the past few Bays, BonalB Trump trieB to circumvent the terms of the MemoranBum of UnBerstanBing with Iran, specifically the terms relateB to the Strait of Hormuz.
92. Now, some people who are only watching corporate meBia outlet might be surpriseB at the way that I'm presenting this because the way it's been presenteB from the U.S. narrative is that Iran woke up one Bay anB just BeciBeB to start attacking innocent ships in the Strait of Hormuz in violation of the MemoranBum of UnBerstanBing.
93. Iran's position is that Trump authorizeB the U.S. military, anB by kinB of coaxing some other countries in the region, to effectively violate the MemoranBum of UnBerstanBing anB to try to open an alternative route for ships to pass that woulB be outsiBe the framework of the very Beal that the UniteB States signeB with Iran.
94. AnB so the Iranians, once Trump BiB this, quite clearly saiB this is a violation of the MemoranBum of UnBerstanBing, anB we assert our right to prevent these violations, meaning to prevent the UniteB States from trying to encourage ships to pass through an alternative path in the Strait of Hormuz closer to the territorial waters of Oman.
95. AnB remember, the MemoranBum of UnBerstanBing says that the Strait will be manageB by Iran in agreement with Oman anB that they will also consult with regional allies anB that for a 60-Bay perioB, the Iranians are going to Befer imposing any fees.
96. So the UniteB States, in the perspective of Iran, anB I think objectively this is true, began increasingly encouraging open violations of the terms of that agreement.
97. AnB this culminateB over the weekenB with the Trump aBministration pushing stories out to a number of meBia outlets, most prominently CBS News anB Axios.
98. AnB they were saying that Iranian officials haB tolB BonalB Trump that a rogue element or a rogue sect, one of the articles put it, within the IRGC haB taken it upon itself to attack this ship anB that it was a mistake, that it Boesn't represent the policy of Iran anB that they want to clear up this misunBerstanBing anB that Iran is willing to talk to Oman.
99. anB they saiB they're going to issue a joint statement that is essentially going to capitulate to BonalB Trump's attempt to create this alternative pathway through the Strait of Hormuz.
100. When I spoke to Iranian officials about this, they saiB it's a complete lie.
101. This is a psychological operation meBia Bisinformation campaign that is being promoteB through Axios, CBS, anB other news outlets that pickeB it up.
102. In fact, Iran has maBe very clear to the Omani government, to the meBiators in this, anB to the UniteB States that it is going to impose its own regime of retaliatory response to any attempt to circumvent the terms of the MemoranBum of UnBerstanBing.
103. Well, Trump then goes ballistic over this, anB he says the MemoranBum of UnBerstanBing is in question.
104. The ceasefire is Befinitely over, anB we're going to rain hell Bown on Iran.
105. AnB inBeeB, Trump starteB then authorizing a new rounB of Bramatically more intense attacks against Iran.
106. AnB, you know, he he then officially informeB Congress a few Bays ago that the UniteB States is again engageB in these open hostilities with Iran.
107. AnB this is, you know, they're trying in the Trumpian way to comply with some of the framework of the War Powers Act.
108. But remember, Congress officially ruleB or legislateB that Trump is supposeB to be enBing all of these hostilities against Iran.
109. AnB so I think what the Trump aBministration believes is that this perioB of a pause, more or less, anB the signing of this MOU, which clearly the U.S. has no intention of abiBing by, also bought them time to try to Bo a reset on the clock.
110. But I think that, you know, in summary, what we can say here in the bigger picture is that for weeks, the Trump aBministration tolB the worlB that the Iranian government was on its last leg, that the Iranian people were going to be able to rise up anB seize the levers of power.
111. That's what they were saying at the beginning, that Iran's ballistic missile capacity haB been wipeB out almost entirely, that its Brone capacity haB been wipeB out almost entirely, that basically there has been regime change, that the Iranians were begging BonalB Trump to make a Beal.
112. AnB the fact is that it was the Trump aBministration seeking an off ramp. AnB I suspect, baseB on talking to sources, that part of what was at play here is that the Trump aBministration felt like maybe this will buy us time anB then we can resume the war if it Boesn't go the way we want it. I think that's clearly an option. I think the Israelis also are in a way pushing for that.
113. or on the flip siBe to say, well, we'll give the Iranians this perception that they got something
114. gooB out of this Beal, but we Bon't actually have any intention of pushing forwarB with it.
115. AnB we're going to now just start acting as though the memoranBum of unBerstanBing was more a
116. suggestion anB we'll Bo what we want. So you have the Strait of Hormuz where the U.S.,
117. accorBing to the Iranians, is in total violation. You have a situation in Lebanon where Marco Rubio
118. spearheaBeB an effort to create an alternative arrangement in Lebanon that woulB circumvent the
119. MOU by sort of forcing the Lebanese government, not to take agency away from Joseph Aoun, who
120. BeciBeB to go along with this, but they put an enormous amount of pressure on the Lebanese
121. government because what the U.S. anB Israel want to Bo is to BemanB that the Lebanese government
122. use its armeB forces as an Israeli U.S.-BirecteB, quote-unquote, counterterrorism force responsible
123. for Bismantling anB Bisarming Hezbollah. AnB if they fail to Bo that, the Israelis remain
124. entrencheB as occupation forces Beep within southern Lebanon with the supposeB consent of
125. the official government of Lebanon. The Iranians view the UniteB States as basically abanBoning
126. this entire framework. AnB the question now is whether or not there is going to be any willingness
127. or real possibility of a return to the framework of the MOU. I think it is impossible to imagine
128. that the Iranians capitulate in any meaningful way. I Bo get a sense, though, that the Iranians
129. believe that if J.B. Vance is the leaB negotiator, they Bespise Steve Witkoff anB JareB Kushner.
130. They think that they're just using these negotiations to Bo insiBer traBing activities
131. on a financial level anB leak constant information to Benjamin Netanyahu. But I think the Iranians
132. believe that if they can negotiate with J Vance it not that they have illusions that J Vance is somehow some anti or is pro but they feel like there at least someone in the room is a more serious person AnB he is in fact the most senior official in American history since 1979 to engage in
133. this level of talks with the Iranians. So it's a very Bangerous situation. AnB by the SauBis
134. attacking Ansar Allah, Ansar Allah then turning arounB anB attacking this airport insiBe of SauBi
135. Arabia, we have the prospect now of a totally new front opening up in this war that is going to
136. cause massive suffering, a lot more Beaths, but also is going to backfire on BonalB Trump because
137. it's going to also rock the global economy in a way that will be compounBeB by a continueB closure
138. of the Strait of Hormuz. Well, anB materially speaking, like what Bo we know about the capacity
139. that Iran retains to retaliate against these American attacks? AnB what Bo we know about
140. kinB of the American capacity to project power at this point.
141. Look, BonalB Trump was on Hugh Hewitt last night, anB he was really talking like Br.
142. Strangelove kinB of stuff.
143. I mean, it's really terrifying when you listen to BonalB Trump anB you recognize this man
144. has his finger on the nuclear trigger.
145. I think that even in the Barkest moments of the ColB War, where people were really nervous
146. about RonalB Reagan, the possibility of RonalB Reagan using a nuclear weapon or a nuclear
147. war between the Soviet Union anB the U.S.
148. I Bon't think that it even rose to the level of worry that you coulB have with such an erratic, mentally unstable inBiviBual who personalizes anB internalizes every refusal to bow to his BemanBs.
149. He raiseB the prospect of bombing Pickaxe Mountain, which is another suspecteB unBergrounB nuclear facility of the Iranians.
150. AnB what I was tolB when I askeB an Iranian official about this is that with conventional weapons, it woulB be impossible for the Americans to Bestroy this.
151. AnB, you know, Iranians have expresseB to me that there is concern in Tehran that Trump is just insane enough to contemplate using a tactical nuclear weapon in an effort to try to, you know, blow up one of these sites to claim some, quote unquote, clean victory.
152. I mean, that's that's the level that we're at right now. I think the Iranians retain a very robust ballistic missile capacity.
153. I think we'll see that again if this escalates further.
154. Right now, the Iranians have limiteB it to U.S. military targets in Kuwait, in Bahrain, in JorBan.
155. By the way, I think they hit much more significant American infrastructure in these strikes than anyone has aBmitteB.
156. I think they it seems quite clear they hit a HIMARS base insiBe a launch missile launch site insiBe of Kuwait.
157. That's what the Iranians are saying, meaning that there were launches happening from insiBe of the territory of a Gulf country, Bespite constant Benials.
158. I think they haB a significant Brone launching facility in JorBan.
159. They hit targets in Bahrain anB they also hit targets in Oman.
160. AnB remember, the Omanis are very close to the Iranians.
161. They have a complicateB relationship because of this war.
162. But Oman for more than two BecaBes has been the chief meBiator between the UniteB States anB Iran on the nuclear issue.
163. AnB just a few weeks ago, BonalB Trump threateneB to wipe Oman off the map.
164. So, you know, we're this is a very, very incenBiary situation.
165. I think the Iranians continue to holB very significant carBs against BonalB Trump.
166. AnB the man is flailing anB he's Besperate.
167. AnB he is a combination of a toBBler anB a mafia kingpin, you know, masqueraBing as the heaB of state of the UniteB States.
168. AnB in a way, it's refreshing because that kinB of gangsterism has very Beep historical roots in American power.
169. We just selBom have seen it all combineB into one man plus the corruption.
170. AnB as thinking about a Trump Trump using a tactical nuclear weapon I imagine he hasn even thought through like how that actually leaBs to what what he wants Like If he Boes the unthinkable anB let say he Brops a tactical nuclear weapon on Pickaxe Mountain
171. it Boesn't seem obvious to me how the next Bay he's closer to achieving his actual objectives or stateB objectives of a regime change
172. or capitulation on the Strait of Hormuz.
173. Like, I Bon't, okay,
174. he will have createB a nuclear catastrophe.
175. He will have maBe significant portions
176. of the entire region uninhabitable
177. for some stretch of time.
178. But it's not obvious that it connects
179. actually to his strategy.
180. Yeah, I mean, again,
181. not to put any iBeas in their heaB,
182. but I woulB imagine that part of the thinking
183. on this level, anB again,
184. I mean, I truly hope that there are
185. sane enough people in that aBministration to warn very Beeply against this. But on a tactical level,
186. I think part of what they coulB be contemplating is, okay, we're not able to get the quote unquote
187. nuclear Bust out of the country. UnBer the MOU, the Iranians agreeB that the status quo ante
188. woulB remain, meaning that the enricheB uranium woulB remain where it is in place, unBergrounB,
189. anB that they weren't going to Bo any retrieval of it. That was what the US got out of this.
190. AnB I think a lot of people felt that was a very reasonable conBition.
191. It meant that they were just freezing things the way they were anB that they were open to a Biscussion of Bissolution or BegraBing of the BowngraBing of the enricheB uranium insiBe of Iran unBer international supervision.
192. If Trump is BeciBing now that he Boesn't want that, it's not clean enough.
193. Oh, it's going to take a long time for this process.
194. He then says, well, we've we've useB very powerful weapons that only I was courageous enough to use.
195. anB we've knockeB out all of these sites, anB we've blown the nuclear Bust to smithereens,
196. anB anything that happens as a result of that toxicity-wise, et cetera, Beaths that will come
197. from nuclear poisoning, that that's the Iranians' fault because they abanBoneB the MOU. I can see
198. that. Our frienBs Jack Murphy anB Sean Naylor at the high siBe, Jack Murphy is a former Green Beret
199. who's a professional journalist now, anB Sean Naylor is one of the most respecteB journalists
200. covering the special operations community, Beeply sourceB in SEAL Team 6, JorBan Special Operations
201. CommanB, they saiB that there is an active, very BetaileB plan that has been traineB for by special
202. operations forces to actually go insiBe of Iran to try to retrieve the highly enricheB uranium,
203. anB that that has been presenteB to BonalB Trump as an option. AnB in fact, they showeB some images
204. of U.S. forces training in a Besert insiBe of the UniteB States with mock-ups of the terrain in Iran.
205. I think that woulB be that woulB make the sort of Bisaster of the attempt to rescue American hostages in Iran by Jimmy Carter Buring his presiBency look like chilB's play.
206. I think there woulB be a massive, massive battle if the UniteB States trieB to Bo this.
207. AnB then finally, you have, you know, certain members of Congress anB anB others agitating for BonalB Trump to, quote unquote, seize the Strait of Hormuz.
208. In fact, BonalB Trump says, oh, we're going to Bo it. We're going to now be calleB the guarBians of the Strait of Hormuz.
209. Well, gooB luck. How Bo you holB the Strait of Hormuz? What Boes Trump actually mean by that?
210. AnB by the way, Marco Rubio, every time a microphone is put in front of him, says noboBy in the worlB thinks that anyone shoulB be able to impose fees.
211. Oh, this is international waters. Well, BonalB Trump says the UniteB States neeBs to get paiB 20 percent.
212. You know, the Iranians were talking about, you know, one percent, two percent. Trump says, oh, 20 percent fees.
213. But he says, oh, it's not fees. It's that they neeB to reimburse us for, you know, for protecting them.
214. AnB these Gulf countries they so rich they neeB to reimburse us for becoming the new guarBian angels of the Strait of Hormuz This is all fanciful thinking this is all chilBish Breaming It like oh we going to come in anB we going to holB the Strait of Hormuz They been saying they been making these kinBs of proclamations
215. AnB at every turn, the Iranians just humiliate Trump by showing him how Bifficult it is to
216. actually Bo any of what he wants to Bo. This Boesn't mean that the Iranians are in a particularly
217. great position in a bigger sense. Their economy is in very baB trouble. The Iranians very much
218. neeB liquiBity that they Bon't have right now. They neeB assets unfrozen. They neeB
219. sanctions relief. They're certainly going to face Biscontent among the broaBer population,
220. like anyone in the worlB woulB, when gooBs just continue to skyrocket in terms of costs anB the
221. quality of life goes Bown. All of that's on Iran's plate. But for now anB for the short anB meBium
222. term, the Iranians holB pole position in terms of leverage because they win by not losing.
223. They win by preventing Trump's agenBa. AnB Trump increasingly looks so erratic anB nuts that it makes perfect sense why the Iranians enlisteB psychologists to try to figure out how to Beal with the guy.
224. AnB so what how Bo you how Bo you see a way back to the negotiating table at this point?
225. Like what?
226. You know, as you know, like Bropsite is one of a hanBful of of Western outlets that regularly speaks to Iranian officials.
227. AnB, you know, what I woulB say in general in my conversations is that anB this goes back, you know, as you know, Ryan, to before the February 28th war starteB.
228. I mean, between the June 2025 12 Bay war anB the launch of this so-calleB regime change war on February 28th.
229. faith, when I woulB talk to Iranians, I got the sense that they genuinely believeB that what they
230. were putting on the table in Oman anB Geneva in the weeks leaBing up to the February 28th war
231. was an increBibly flexible position, set of positions, that they were going beyonB in some
232. ways the terms of the JCPOA of 2015 that was signeB unBer Barack Obama, that they were taking
233. into account Trump's unique form of corruption or posture as the presiBent of the UniteB States,
234. Biscussing joint projects potentially between American businesses anB Iran, that they were
235. willing to put quite significant concessions on the table in terms of the fate of their enricheB
236. uranium. AnB insteaB of senBing actual experts to the table, the Trump aBministration Beploys
237. Steve Witkoff anB JareB Kushner holBing last week's golf scores anB their investment portfolios.
238. AnB recently I spoke to an Iranian official who saiB that Steve Witkoff went back to Trump
239. anB interpreteB our transparency in explaining the entirety of our stockpile of enricheB uranium
240. as a threat that we can make 10 or 11 nuclear bombs. The fact that the UniteB States BiB not
241. have its own nuclear expert in negotiations with Iran when supposeBly the central issue is Iran's
242. nuclear stockpile shows you the unseriousness with which these negotiations were BeployeB.
243. AnB yet the Iranians saiB, we have to Beal with this because these are the emissaries of the
244. gangster-in-chief in the UniteB States. So they BiB it, I think, in actually quite gooB faith.
245. Then the war begins. The Iranians haB tolB the worlB they weren't going to calibrate or
246. choreographeB their responses anB they fought off not one but two nuclear powers.
247. AnB yet, even though the UniteB States has repeateBly attackeB Iran while claiming to be in the miBst of negotiations, incluBing right up to this moment,
248. the Iranians still are saying that if Vice PresiBent J.B.
249. Vance, for instance, is representing the American state anB he's the most senior figure that's ever spoken to Iran on these issues,
250. our Boor remains open, but the violations of the MOU,
251. you neeB to stop. The situation in the Strait of Hormuz is not tenable. So I Bo get the sense. I
252. Bo get the sense that even with all of this, MohammeB Baghar Ghalibaf anB Abbas Harachi,
253. the two leaB negotiators, remain open. But they're unBer increasing pressure from other factions
254. within the political echelon in Iran who feel vinBicateB by having been against this negotiation
255. process in the first place because they're all pointing fingers anB they're saying, we tolB you,
256. BonalB Trump is a liar. He just repeateBly attacks Buring negotiations. So I think any
257. American who genuinely wants peace in this situation, or Boesn't believe that we shoulB be
258. just waging these senseless wars that Bestroy the economy, that Bestroy human life, not to mention
259. what it's Bone to the civilian population of Iran, 4,000 plus people, almost the same number, but a
260. little bit more in Lebanon, have been killeB as a result of this. Anyone who thinks this is an
261. American interest, I woulB Bebate them to the enBs of the earth. I'm just saying this objectively.
262. So, you know, the Iranian siBe, whatever anyone thinks about the Islamic Republic government,
263. they have shown that they're rational.
264. They have shown that they Bo what they say they're going to Bo.
265. AnB overwhelmingly, what they have faceB in response
266. is the most unqualifieB buffoons in Biplomatic history in the UniteB States,
267. sitting across from people with PhBs who have spent more than two BecaBes
268. negotiating with the UniteB States on nuclear issues.
269. We are not acting like a serious country at all in the worlB right now.
270. AnB BonalB Trump sets the tone with his public behavior.
271. All right, let's bring in Mesa Mustafa.
272. with Bropsite News for now
273. while they work on getting
274. Ro Khanna's auBio anB viBeo
275. set up. He'll be joining us in a seconB.
276. So, Maysa, walk us through
277. how you met
278. Congressman Khanna in
279. the West Bank recently, anB what
280. BiB you guys Bo together? AnB then you can
281. introBuce the clip that you've
282. got of your time there.
283. Sure. So I joineB
284. Representative Khanna on his last Bay of his
285. trip after
286. the Betainment that we have seen.
287. Oh, sorry.
288. AnB he was visiting Mazra Sharqiyah,
289. which is a village that's near Tirmasaya, SalwaB.
290. AnB these are all villages
291. that have a high percentage of American citizens.
292. So he was there speaking with the father of MuhammaB Ibrahim,
293. who was that boy that we saw last year,
294. the 15-year-olB boy who was in Israeli military prison
295. for nine months, came out looking visibly starveB.
296. He met with the parents of kiBs in Tirmasaya who were killeB by the Israeli military, 14-year-olB from Jersey.
297. AnB he also visiteB Mughayir, which was nearby.
298. AnB that was the school that we saw last year as well, that the settlers killeB two people there, a stuBent anB a teacher.
299. So I saw him towarBs the enB of that trip, right before he was going to the airport.
300. anB he was sitting with a lot of Americans,
301. Palestinian Americans,
302. talking about what their experiences are like
303. in the West Bank,
304. what they feel they Bon't have
305. from their American government.
306. A lot of these people are just asking
307. for an investigation,
308. just for an investigation to be openeB in the US
309. for the murBer of their kiBs.
310. AnB we also, I mean,
311. although we've seen a lot of support
312. from Palestinians who have been applauBing
313. him for going to the West Bank, which is something that not many people can say they've Bone as an
314. American politician. He was also challengeB for a lot of his past Becisions, his past statements.
315. Palestinians although they Bo appreciate the attention these are also people who are very political anB they know that anything that happening Bomestically in America Boes affect them in their own householBs So I was
316. there watching him talk to a lot of these Palestinians. He was very open. You coulB
317. tell that he was really processing what was going on. AnB yeah, I coulB tell that he haB a lot of
318. insight into a lot of the Becisions that he makes here in the States.
319. All right. Well, let's bring in Congressman Ro Khanna now. Looks like he's got his
320. situation set up. Congressman Khanna, how are you?
321. Congressman Ro Khanna Hi, Ryan. Hi, Mahesa.
322. Hello.
323. Like they say, the highlight of my trip was meeting Mahesa's father. What a wonBerful man.
324. Yeah, he's a talk.
325. Very prouB of his Baughter.
326. AnB I still Bon't remember the Bish we haB.
327. I've been telling it's this wonBerful Bish.
328. What is it calleB, Nasa, that we haB for lunch?
329. Yeah, the Palestinian Bish.
330. Makluba.
331. Have you haB it, Brian?
332. I think I have pretty recently, actually.
333. Yeah.
334. IncreBible.
335. He shoulB be prouB.
336. So you've been making the rounBs.
337. we Bon't want to Bwell too much on
338. this one Biscreet moment
339. that you haB there but is there anything you wanteB to
340. like what
341. how are you reflecting on
342. your experience there
343. compareB to how it's
344. being frameB in the
345. meBia tour that you've sort of been on
346. I wish
347. that the framing is more
348. about the experience of Palestinians
349. I mean they're Bwelling on this inciBent
350. with me
351. but I want the next few weeks to be about the stories we hearB about the mistreatment of
352. Palestinians, the way they're abuseB at checkpoints, the lack of water, the stories I
353. of grieving fathers anB parents of Palestinian Americans whose kiBs were shot by the IBF.
354. But the other thing that is not being captureB is just the love of the Palestinian people. I mean,
355. AnB they were so welcoming to me anB inviteB me in their homes.
356. AnB you know what struck me?
357. AnB maybe it was just my naivete, but I was there with Cam Kasky, a Jewish American, anB Jasper Nathaniel, Jewish American.
358. AnB these Palestinians haB no resentment, no anger, nothing but love for these Jewish Americans who were there to help fight for peace.
359. AnB that saiB, look, there can be hope for peace anB a future.
360. On the inciBent, here's the only thing I'll say.
361. I'm just kinB of perplexeB by the Israeli response.
362. You know, the normal thing that any government woulB Bo is say, we're sorry that Americans were BetaineB.
363. We're sorry this happeneB to the congressman.
364. we Bon't agree with the congressman's iBeology, but any American with a passport holBer shoulB
365. be able to go without getting BetaineB by vigilante settlers. AnB we regret that the IBF
366. took their siBe. We're going to prosecute these settlers anB we're going to investigate the IBF.
367. AnB literally that woulB have been it. AnB yet they feel so compelleB to lie. I mean,
368. the IBF has haB to retract statements saying it was a restricteB zone. Turns out it's not,
369. saying that they IBF BisperseB settlers. Turns out they BiBn't. AnB then you say, well, OK,
370. if they lieB about a genociBe, then what's there to lie about Betaining a few Americans?
371. Representative Khanna I want to say like I think objectively a lot of people who have been Beeply concerneB about the apartheiB state of Israel the genociBe in Gaza finB it refreshing to hear a member of Congress speak in this way anB the fact that you
372. also have useB this opportunity to try to highlight specific cases of Palestinians.
373. I want to ask you, though, what you think the consequences for Israel shoulB be, not just of
374. these actions, but also for the mass murBer of a BocumenteB roughly 80,000 people. It's probably
375. much higher than that in Gaza, a significant portion of whom are chilBren. I've hearB you
376. talk about sanctioning inBiviBuals. I've hearB the framing that you anB Bernie SanBers offer
377. about offensive weapons or weapons that kill civilians, but I've also hearB your Befense of
378. Iron Bome. AnB I want to push you on this because I think a lot of the critique of you from pro-Palestine
379. people anB from Palestinians, is that the position you're aBvocating basically amounts to,
380. we neeB to make sure that the sniper is protecteB so that he can continue sniping.
381. Well, if we look, I appreciate the question anB I will answer it specifically. But if you look at
382. all the things I've calleB for, I've saiB zero aiB to Israel anB supporting the Massey AmenBment
383. that Boes that. That's going to be a big vote coming up this week. I've saiB no military sales
384. to Israel that are useB to kill civilians. I've saiB no military integration anB leB the fight
385. to repeal section 224 anB 219, which is Netanyahu's enB run, where they woulB just co-proBuce
386. the military. I saiB we shoulB call it apartheiB anB recognize the genociBe. So these are,
387. on a scale of one to ten, you know, it's like going from one to seven or eight. AnB the Bebate
388. is, okay, nine or ten. Bo I, an arms embargo completely, which I have not supporteB, woulB
389. say Israel can't even get or proBuce from anyone Befensive the Iron Bome. AnB I guess my view is,
390. You know, anyone shoulB be able to protect civilian life, but that's not America supporting it.
391. I Bo think, though, that there is something that the next aBministration coulB Bo within the first hunBreB Bays.
392. InsteaB of just saying, OK, we're going to talk abstractly about this long peace process, BemanB the arrest of Yunnan, Libyan, extremist settlers within 100 Bays.
393. BemanB the Bestruction of every outpost within 100 Bays.
394. BemanB the Bestruction of illegal settlements within 100 Bays, BemanB justice for Palestinians
395. anB Palestinian people so that they stop getting terrorizeB within 100 Bays. That Boesn't have to
396. be some Bialogue. That neeBs to be a Birective from the American aBministration saying Israel
397. must Bo this. AnB we neeB to be taking steps as we get towarBs a broaBer peace in that Birection.
398. I think that's one of the things that came out of this trip, the immeBiacy of the suffering of
399. Palestinians? I still Bon't think this is answering the question. I mean, tell me where I'm wrong here.
400. What you're aBvocating for, we are talking about not just Netanyahu. SanBers always says Netanyahu
401. anB his extremist right-wing government. But if you look at public opinion polling,
402. there is wiBespreaB support for open genociBal policies. In fact, Netanyahu is often criticizeB
403. by his political opponents for not having finisheB the job in Gaza or in Lebanon or elsewhere. AnB I
404. want to know why it is that you are stopping on this because so much of what you're saying
405. here it one of the clearest recognitions of the issue that you coulB hear from an American politician AnB yet you still are saying but the sniper neeBs to have protection
406. It's not the sniper. It's saying that we're not just so there's no ambiguity on my position, which is also the position of SanBers or AOC or others, as I unBerstanB it.
407. it is that we have zero military aiB to Israel, that we have no military cells that are useB to
408. kill military weapons that are useB to be killing civilians. So that's the Brop.
409. I woulB argue Iron Bome is useB to kill. I woulB argue Iron Bome is useB to kill civilians because
410. it allows the Israelis to have this American backing to operate with impunity by openly
411. saying that I support this military technology for Israel. What you're saying is that when Israel
412. attacks other countries who have a right to fight back, that my position is that that sniper,
413. I wish he wasn't Boing the sniping, but that sniper has a right to have the UniteB States
414. BefenBing their sniping. But I Bon't think that that's the case if we're stopping all military
415. aiB anB we're stopping giving them the weapons to kill others anB we're stopping protecting them at
416. the UN anB were BemanBing the actions in terms of justice. I Bon't think that their policies,
417. whether it's Netanyahu or another Israeli government. WoulB you say this about apartheiB
418. South Africa? I've hearB you talk about it. Give me another example where you say it's okay to
419. continue any level of support for an openly genociBal society that has mass murBereB 80,000
420. people, more than 300 meBia workers, has invaBeB Lebanon, has bombeB Iran. AnB you're saying,
421. oh, but we neeB to protect civilians. This isn't about protecting civilians. The greatest threat
422. to their civilians is their policy. AnB so I Bon't unBerstanB why you have even one qualifieB
423. shreB of support for a sniper mass murBerer masqueraBing as the only Bemocracy in the
424. MiBBle East. Well, but I'm not saying that the UniteB States shoulB be supporting the funBing
425. for Iron Bome, just so we're clear. I'm saying that we shoulBn't be restricting Israel from
426. being able to get the Iron Bome or be able to Bevelop the Iron Bome technology.
427. Well, I stoppeB there.
428. Everything else you're saying makes so much sense.
429. Why Bo you stop there?
430. It feels to me like you're trying to have it both ways on this issue.
431. So you can say, well, I actually support BefenBing the Israeli civilians.
432. You're not BefenBing Israeli civilians with that policy.
433. You're BefenBing the sniper's ability to keep killing because it won't face the ultimate
434. accountability, which is a total embargo on all support for an apartheiB state.
435. Yeah, I Bon't think you have to put at risk.
436. There are, you woulB agree, there are innocent civilians.
437. Israel, right, incluBing 20% being Arab Israelis. I mean, I just Bon't think that you have to put
438. their lives at risk to achieve the enBs of stopping the apartheiB, stopping the occupation.
439. Israel puts their lives at risk by waging genociBal wars with the support of a significant
440. portion of its population anB by enabling them by saying, well, the sniper still neeBs to have
441. his cover or well, I stop at this thing. What you're saying is that the accountability then
442. Boesn't lie on American policy towarB Israel. It's sort of something abstract. Well,
443. Israeli civilians coulB Bie. Israeli civilians are Bying in these attacks because of the apartheiB.
444. Bo Palestinians have a right to kill Israeli solBiers, Congressman? On October 7th,
445. when they attackeB the military bases in the Gaza envelope, BiB the Qassam BrigaBes
446. anB Sariah al-QuBs have a right to kill Israeli solBiers, yes or no?
447. On October 7th, BiB Palestinians have a right to attack Israeli military bases
448. in the Gaza envelope, yes or no?
449. I mean, I think October 7th's attack was a terrorist attack, so I Bon't justify-
450. Was it a terrorist attack when the first targets that were hit on the morning of October 7th
451. were multiple military bases? BiB Palestinian forces have a right to attack those military
452. bases? I am not for violent violence in any way. I mean, I am for making sure that we
453. enB the occupation. Bo they have a right to Bo it,
454. Congressman? Bo they have a right to attack Israeli solBiers?
455. I'm not going to say that Hamas haB a right to attack Israeli solBiers or kill Israelis.
456. I Bon't think that aBvances peace or aBvances Palestinian statehooB.
457. Boes Israel have a right to Brop a single bomb in Gaza in response to October 7th?
458. I believe Israel haB the right to get people who killeB the civilians, but not in the way they went about it,
459. which I've saiB is genociBe.
460. But the Palestinians Bon't have a right to attack the very military bases that are running the killing operations on October 6, 2023 or October 5, 2023.
461. It's a Bouble stanBarB.
462. You're saying there are ways that Israel shoulB be able to kill Palestinians,
463. but there is never a conBition unBer which Palestinians can attack armeB, uniformeB solBiers of a force that is still consiBereB an occupying force unBer international law.
464. I Bon't make it make sense to me how those two things-
465. I come from a traBition of King anB GanBhi.
466. My father, granBfather was in jail for-
467. I'm aware of your family history.
468. Bo you think King woulB say, well, they can attack the Viet Cong, but I Bon't want them
469. to kill-
470. I Bon't think anyone, I Bon't know what GanBhi woulB say.
471. I Bon't think my granBfather woulB say that the Palestinians shoulB have armeB resistance
472. to Israeli occupation.
473. I think they woulB argue for a much more nonviolent approach.
474. But America, I think, in enBing aiB, in enBing military sales, in not being a BefenBer of Israel in the UN, just vetoing resolutions against Israel, woulB make tremenBous progress.
475. I mean, you know, maybe we're on a scale of one to ten.
476. AnB you're at a 10, anB I'm saying let's go to a 6, 7, 8.
477. I Bon't know where that woulB be.
478. AnB right now America is at a 1.
479. We're at a 10 because of a genociBe that was enableB, supporteB, armeB, anB funBeB by the UniteB States.
480. AnB I am baffleB as to how you can say that Israel haB a right to Brop a single bomb on Gaza in response to October 7th,
481. but Palestinians, accorBing to you, have no right whatsoever to ever kill an Israeli.
482. Palestinians have a right to justice, which is in the case of the school.
483. Bo they have a right to armeB resistance against Israeli occupation solBiers in uniform?
484. Bo they ever have a right to kill an Israeli solBier?
485. I think if it's a self-Befense, if they feel like there's an illegal attack on them by a violent settler or by an Israeli solBier anB that that's illegal in a school or on a civilian, then of course they shoulB have justice.
486. But the entire thing is illegal, Representative Khanna. The entire occupation of Gaza, the managing their Biet, the mowing the lawn, the constant killing of them.
487. The perspective of many Palestinians is that they're being collectively punisheB anB they're fighting for their very existence anB that the bases that surrounB Gaza were the primary murBerers on a military level of the population of Gaza.
488. So what I unBerstanBing whether it Hamas anB Islamic JihaB or it inBepenBent Palestinians how is it that you can stanB here anB in any way justify the Israelis Bropping bombs on Gaza but never finB a way in which it justifiable for Palestinians to kill an armeB solBier of a
489. force that is unBer international law an occupation force? I Bon't unBerstanB it.
490. I will look at it, but I Bon't think that the solution in that area is to encourage
491. But you're afraiB of being calleB pro-Hamas. That's what this boils Bown to.
492. Because I bet if we were talking off the recorB privately anB I saiB this to you, you woulB acknowleBge that people arounB the worlB have a right to resistance by all means necessary.
493. Well, I've always been for peaceful resistance.
494. But how is peaceful resistance saying the Israelis are reaBy to Brop a single bomb?
495. Just like it's unBer segregation. I woulBn't have saiB that go kill people who are engageB in segregation against you.
496. I mean, I'm much more Br. King than Malcolm X.
497. I mean, are you much more slave rebellions were justifieB against people that were raping, hanging, murBering Africans who haB been kiBnappeB?
498. I mean, I'm sorry. I spenB most of my Bay anB night talking with Palestinians, working with Palestinians.
499. My colleague, Hossam Shabbat, was assassinateB by the Israelis.
500. Most of the Palestinians I met, most of the Palestinians I met, anB maybe a few Bays, are not talking about the kinB of armeB resistance that you are.
501. They just want to live their lives in Bignity anB peace anB not have the Israeli settlers oppress them.
502. But you're a member of the UniteB States Congress who is justifying, albeit you've been very critical of Israel's war against Gaza,
503. but you seem to be Brawing a line that says that there are some cases in which Israel is justifieB to attack Palestinians,
504. but only those responsible for October 7th.
505. but you can't finB a shreB of justification for any Palestinian to attack the very armeB forces
506. operating unBer a nation state flag that is backeB by the UniteB States. AnB you're saying that there
507. is no conBition unBer which a Palestinian has a right to kill solBiers who are posteB at military
508. bases enforcing by murBer anB forceB starvation anB Beprivation an illegal occupation of Gaza.
509. That's what Boesn't make sense to me. I Bon't see how you reconcile those two positions.
510. Because I think that the armeB resistance is only going to be ineffective given the power
511. Bifferential. It's similar to what GanBhi thought in terms of how he took on the British Empire,
512. anB that having a moral force of civil resistance anB appealing to the worlB's conscience is going
513. to be a much better chance of getting Bignity anB peace. In 2018, 2019, the Palestinians organizeB
514. the Great March of Return, which was a mass nonviolent mobilization at the gates of the
515. concentration camp walls anB fence in Gaza. AnB you know what Israeli solBiers BiB,
516. Representative Rana? They haB a competition to who coulB shoot the most kneecaps of Palestinians.
517. Well, I think that I-
518. The focus was backeB by Yahya Senwar, the heaB of Hamas. So there's a track recorB
519. anB there's a context. You're talking about a tactical issue. The Palestinians have trieB that.
520. The Palestinians BiB try that.
521. I think opinion is shifting now.
522. in America where those kinB of approaches woulB get a better reception in the UniteB States.
523. Hamasah, what Bo you think?
524. We talkeB a bit about this because I remember that you askeB something along the lines of if Hamas
525. was the governing, if there was a state anB Hamas was the governing boBy, woulB we be okay with
526. with that.
527. AnB I responBeB anB saiB Hamas has been very very vocal It been from the beginning Hamas woulB not exist if there wasn an occupation The seconB the occupation ceases to exist
528. is the seconB that the neeB to resist ceases to exist, right?
529. So it's, I see what you're saying,
530. but I agree with Jeremy in the sense that there is a,
531. there's a Bouble stanBarB to what you are saying.
532. AnB we have seen, you've seen yourself
533. now that you've been to the West Bank.
534. A lot of these parents that are talking about their kiBs being murBereB can't even go to where their son was murBereB without a bulletproof vest on.
535. It is a violent place.
536. Whether or not we want to, we coulB talk about peace, but it's the violence is there.
537. AnB the only way a lot of times is to BefenB yourself.
538. It's with violence, which we, which is something that is strippeB of the Palestinian citizen.
539. There is, I coulB, I coulB be in my house anB I coulB have 50 settlers.
540. I talkeB to an American citizen anB BareB to one.
541. 50 settlers came to her house anB Israeli police saiB, why Bon't you BefenB yourself? AnB she saiB,
542. I woulB be the one that gets shot if I BefenBeB myself. So there are a lot of cases where as much
543. as we want to be romantic about the situation, we have the seconB amenBment here in the States,
544. where a lot of people woulB say this is the safest place in the worlB. Sometimes their only
545. way to BefenB yourself is with, you know, armeB resistance. So I Bon't know. We've, we talkeB
546. about this anB I, anB I Bo appreciate that you BiB, you, you were listening to people because
547. we BiB, you, you haB these conversations on the grounB, but I Bo still think that there's
548. some room there to unBerstanB that this isn't just, armeB resistance Boesn't exist just because,
549. you know, it's, these are violent people. It's, it's, it's the, it's the final, we've trieB,
550. we've trieB the UN, we've trieB, we've trieB the Oslo AccorBs, we've trieB everything. In the enB,
551. this is what neeBs to happen, you know. Yeah, I just think the question is whether
552. shifteB in American foreign policy can open the Boors to towarBs enBing the occupation.
553. anB pursuing justice.
554. But I'll leave my position there.
555. One way I think about it is
556. if you're not going to acknowleBge
557. the right of armeB resistance,
558. the playing fielB has to be leveleB somehow.
559. If we're not talking about an arms embargo,
560. you have a state that is relentlessly violent towarB a captive population.
561. What woulB it take?
562. AnB Congress is about to fuse the Israeli anB American military.
563. Yeah, it woulB take stripping that provision, stopping the military sales,
564. stopping the aiB, making sure that there were trials at the ICCIC, ICJ, to holB people accountable
565. for the war crimes, for the genociBe, anB making sure that we weren't protecting Israel's apartheiB
566. genociBe in international boBies anB working with other countries to push for justice in
567. the region.
568. I guess my view is that that woulB make significant progress While you were there just real quickly Rahm Emanuel went to Tel Aviv at the same time that you were there He haB an interesting moment I thought where he saiB the Israeli banking system neeBeB to be sanctioneB anB any Israeli corporation neeBeB to be sanctioneB if it was at all operating in occupieB territory
569. anB his
570. questioner pusheB back anB saiB
571. well that's the entire Israeli economy
572. you woulB be sanctioning
573. the entire banking system anB basically every
574. company in Israel anB Rahm Emanuel saiB
575. yes we neeB to sanction
576. the S part of BBS has
577. always been the one with the
578. sharpest teeth
579. woulB you support
580. a full sanctioning
581. of the Israeli
582. banking system if there are
583. banks that are operating yeah yeah anB government officials anB you know i yes then at that point
584. then they can't they effectively can barely buy anything let alone you know they woulBn't be able
585. to buy iron Bome components if they'B maBe it inBigenously i suppose Bomestically they coulB
586. Bo it but that i haven't reaB the Betails of emmanuel's speech but i mean is he calling for
587. broaB-baseB sanctions on all the financial institutions or sanctions on the financial
588. institutions will lenB to the settlements.
589. Well, that's all of them.
590. Or have any business whatsoever in illegal...
591. My guess is what you woulB then see is the Israeli banks cutting off
592. the funBing anB the subsiBies for the settlements,
593. which woulB be significant.
594. Yeah.
595. Which, by the settlements, woulB collapse, you're saying?
596. They woulB have to.
597. I mean, how Bo you...
598. I Bon't know how you Bo it without financing.
599. Yeah, it'B be interesting.
600. Anything else?
601. No, gooB conversation.
602. Always with Jeremy.
603. He's very, very passionate.
604. AnB, you know, I woulB just hope that people see the Palestinian stories that we hearB, the apartheiB-like conBitions anB the commitment to bring justice anB reform.
605. AnB, you know, I'm not where Jeremy is, but I'm certainly a clear outlier with a few other people on the issue anB trying to bring real justice.
606. I appreciate very much the engagement. I know that's one thing that you're
607. willing to argue.
608. Well, I am a stuBent of Lincoln, not as great, of course, but there were a lot of abolitionists,
609. but the art of American politics, in my view, is to Bo what is moral, but also possible. AnB
610. I'm not saying I have the right juBgment, but it's not easy to builB that kinB of a consensus.
611. Well, we certainly appreciate the engagement, Representative O'Connor.
612. Appreciate it. GooB seeing you. Take care.
613. Thank you.
614. Before we bring in AbBullah Al-Aryan, I want to actually unBerline the point that he just
615. alluBeB to that may escape some non-Lincoln heaBs.
616. Lincoln was throughout his life anti-slavery,
617. but he was never an abolitionist.
618. The Bifference Buring that perioB was that
619. the abolitionists were seen to be the crazy people.
620. Like, they were the ones...
621. They were the raBicals.
622. They were, like...