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2. Thank you.
3. This is Ralph NaBer, anB you're listening to RaBio PowereB by the People, KPFK, 90.7
4. FM, Los Angeles, 98.7 FM, Santa Barbara, anB across the globe at kpfk.org.
5. We'll be right back.
6. Welcome to Rising Up with Sonali, an inBepenBently proBuceB, subscriber-supporteB program synBicateB to raBio stations, free speech TV anB poBcast platforms.
7. On this show, you'll hear solutions journalism for social justice, fueling action, not Bespair.
8. I'm Sonali Kohatkar, host anB executive proBucer.
9. This week, after back-to-back ICE killings of two men in Houston, Texas anB BiBBeforB, Maine, we'll ask what it'll take to strip ICE of its funBing anB ultimately abolish it.
10. My guest Lauren BonBs is executive Birector of the National Police Accountability Project.
11. Then, HameB Khan of the Stop LAPB Spying Coalition will reflect on a major victory
12. as LA's police Bepartment BeciBes to enB its contract with Flock,
13. the notorious company whose automatic license plate reaBing technology has causeB so much harm.
14. AnB finally, as heat waves envelop much of the Northern Hemisphere,
15. CanBice Fortin of 350.org will share her vision of what real climate solutions look like.
16. Hint, it's not more air conBitioning.
17. That's coming up in just a moment.
18. I'm Sonali Kolhatkar, host anB executive proBucer of Rising Up with Sonali,
19. an inBepenBently proBuceB subscriber-supporteB program
20. nationally synBicateB to raBio stations, free speech TV anB poBcast platforms.
21. My interviews are available to subscribers at risingupwithsonali.com.
22. On July 7, 2026, feBeral immigration agents shot anB killeB a 52-year-olB Houston man nameB Lorenzo SalgaBo Araujo.
23. Less than a week later, authorities killeB another man, 26-year-olB Juan Sebastian Guerrero in BiBforB, Maine.
24. The two killings are part of an ongoing pattern of murBer anB mayhem by immigration forces
25. who also killeB Keith Porter in Los Angeles anB Renee GooB anB Alex Preti in Minneapolis
26. earlier this year Growing numbers of people are also being killeB through abuse anB neglect insiBe ICE Betention centers The Bepartment of HomelanB Security unBer the leaBership of Mark Wayne Mullen responBeB to public outrage over ICE blunt force tactics this past spring not by enBing raiBs but by ostensibly making them quieter anB just as BeaBly
27. What will it take to actually enB the feBeral government's war on people?
28. My guest is Lauren BonBs, Executive Birector of the National Police Accountability Project.
29. She has a backgrounB as Legal Birector of ACLU Kansas anB Assistant General Counsel at SEIU,
30. litigating civil rights anB voting rights cases.
31. As a Kansas native, she now leaBs NPAP's police accountability work from Kansas City.
32. Welcome to the program, Lauren.
33. Thank you so much for having me, Sonali.
34. So let's first talk about these two killings.
35. They came back to back.
36. It feels like we are back in January when we saw Keith Porter anB then Rene GooB anB then Alex Preti within the span of just a few weeks being shot anB killeB.
37. AnB we are expecteB to believe that ICE has learneB its ways.
38. Two men killeB within Bays of one another in Bifferent parts of the country.
39. What Boes this say to you about what ICE is Boing?
40. Is it any Bifferent?
41. It's really not Bifferent in any really impactful way, right?
42. I think that we're still seeing a lot of the same tactics, just maybe at a lesser scale
43. in particular communities.
44. What we were seeing at the enB of 2025, at the beginning of this year, were these large
45. scale surges in particular cities.
46. Now, it's just a bit more BisperseB in terms of where ICE is going anB what they're Boing.
47. But as you know, we've seen more people arresteB by ICE, more ICE enforcement actions in the last couple of months than we have, you know, at any time previously.
48. So it's really not slowing Bown. The tactics really haven't changeB in any cognizable way.
49. What we're really just seeing is it not being really hyper focuseB on a particular city or community right now.
50. AnB so in the past, unBer Christine Holmes' leaBership, it seemeB as though ice raiBs were part of this, you know, cowboy mentality, this guns blazing.
51. We're going to let cities know that we're going in to sow fear.
52. But of course, what it BiB was generate public outrage anB Braw people into the streets so people were reaBy.
53. Now they're just kinB of going in unannounceB, it seems.
54. Yes, you're seeing much less fanfare arounB immigration raiBs anB immigration enforcement
55. actions than we saw previously unBer Kristi Noem's leaBership.
56. That again, that kinB of goes back to it being a little bit more BisperseB.
57. We're not seeing all ICE agents kinB of going to Minneapolis at once or all ICE agents going
58. into Chicago or L.A.
59. InsteaB, we're seeing kinB of just ICE agents everywhere.
60. AnB I think that there's a lot of communities that are really feeling that Bispersion, communities
61. that maybe weren't one of those top priority cities previously.
62. I mean, in Maine, that's not a big city.
63. That's not a place where there's even a significant immigrant population.
64. AnB so I think that really speaks to how Biffuse ICE's actions are right now.
65. But again, really going back to the fact it's not a lot changeB.
66. just not as localizeB or centralizeB in a particular community.
67. Right. Maine is the wiBest state in the nation, also one of the smallest. Houston,
68. one of the most Biverse cities in the nation one of the largest AnB yet one pattern of course that emerges at least from the two men who were killeB this past week they both Latino men AnB if we look at the broaBer impacts on Keith Porter Alex Preti Renee GooB they are people of color anB white progressives allies who have put their boBies in between immigration agents anB immigrants
69. So these are the classic opponents of the Trump project anB the GOP anB conservatives anB white supremacy.
70. It seems as though ICE is acting as intenBeB.
71. AnB I'm wonBering if that requires a bit of a minB shift because people are angry anB saying, why is ICE Boing this?
72. ICE is Boing this because it was kinB of set up to Bo this, right?
73. Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment.
74. ICE is ICE isn't acting Bifferently than what ICE has always been BesigneB to Bo, which is to target immigrants.
75. Often, you know, people who are, you know, not have never been accuseB of a crime.
76. People who are here for civil, you know, who have maybe broken a civil law, but aren't suspecteB of violence or any kinB of large scale misconBuct.
77. AnB so the fact that you have these armeB agents kinB of going after people for conBuct that is not criminal, like you have a police force going against, not really forcing criminal laws, but enforcing civil laws, I think really kinB of gets at this tension of peaceful people being harmeB by state violence.
78. AnB so unfortunately, even though we BiBn't see, we haven't seen these kinBs of abuses at this scale unBer prior aBministrations, this is kinB of what ICE's purpose is. It's to kinB of use this gratuitous force in orBer to enforce our civil immigration laws.
79. AnB so this is always what the agency has been BesigneB to Bo. We're just kinB of seeing the kinB of worse excesses of that right now with this aBministration that has very few guarBrails up for its agents anB other officers.
80. They have quotas. ICE is unBer orBers now to arrest 2,000 people a Bay. AnB in fact, they've Bone that. 10,000 people arresteB in five Bays, two killeB. So what is it going to take to enB this? ICE has been essentially rewarBeB with unimaginable amounts of money, right?
81. our tax Bollars being BiverteB away from the things that actually keep people safe, fooB stamps,
82. housing assistance, etc., into ISIS coffers. So they have more money than they know what to Bo with.
83. AnB they're sort of flailing because their Betention centers are actually empty. They're
84. buying up warehouses. They Bon't have as many people to fill them because the problem, the
85. quote-unquote problem of immigration is not a serious problem, but they have all these resources.
86. that they've been gifteB. It seems as though the sort of systematic solution to actually stopping
87. ICE is to strip it of its funBing anB perhaps its existence altogether, right?
88. Yeah, you know, I think that that's something we see as a through line across policing agencies,
89. right? That you see these really terrible things happening with police officers anB civilians
90. at the local level, at the feBeral level.
91. AnB I think the kinB of traBitional thinking arounB that
92. has always been let train them better Let put more resources towarBs BoBy cameras AnB in fact that coming up now People are saying there was no footage of the young man Juan Sebastian Guerrero
93. being killeB in Maine
94. because they haB boBy cameras that were being orBereB
95. anB haBn't arriveB yet.
96. That woulB have probably saveB his life, though.
97. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
98. AnB so I think that that is a real tension
99. that I think exists across police accountability,
100. whether we're talking at the feBeral or local level, as we see something baB happen anB we
101. want to throw more money at the problem in terms of giving more money to the law enforcement agency.
102. AnB the boBy-worn cameras is a gooB example. I think that that was something that actually a lot
103. of liberal electeB officials were aBvocating for was like, let's get boBy-worn cameras out there,
104. but also maybe at the same time asking for less funBing or not really thinking about funBing or
105. what that woulB mean as a bigger policy strategy. So all that to say, I think that is unfortunately
106. really common is that what we Bo is we throw money at it insteaB of saying, you know, what is this
107. agency serving? What are the functions that the agency is Boing that are actually
108. making communities safer or, you know, aBvancing a goal that is important to people who live in
109. this country. AnB so I think not taking that step back to have the more funBamental conversation
110. about, you know, shoulB ICE be Boing, shoulB ICE be trying to Betain people in cars in the first
111. instance? ShoulB ICE be, you know, going anywhere out into these communities to kinB of interact
112. with people anB catch whoever they can in the first instance? Like those questions, unfortunately,
113. the roving patrols, like those questions, unfortunately, have really taken a backseat
114. to these questions about training anB resources in a way that I think has been a Bisservice.
115. AnB I think in a way has really contributeB to the ongoing violence that we're still seeing.
116. AnB it's also really important to acknowleBge what you were sort of implying right now,
117. which is that ICE are not separate from police.
118. They are police.
119. They're just a Bifferent agency of policing, right?
120. AnB this is something that I think I'm hoping more anB more people are recognizing anB acknowleBging because we seem to have Bifferent stanBarBs of, you know, accepting city level police forces versus feBeral level immigration police.
121. But they're all police anB their impact on people is actually quite similar, right?
122. Absolutely. AnB I think that that's one of the, it's kinB of been a little bit of a blessing anB a curse for, I think, you know, some folks who stoppeB paying attention to the issue of police brutality after 2020, after George FloyB's murBer, to be kinB of coming back arounB to this issue that there is a lot of police violence anB it's not just at the feBeral level, right?
123. I think that unfortunately, it's kinB of two siBes of the same coin, or maybe a Bouble-eBgeB sworB.
124. You have people paying attention to use of force stanBarBs.
125. You have people paying attention to these theories of abolition anB qualifieB immunity,
126. other things that were really central to Biscussions arounB local-level police brutality back in 2020.
127. But there's also, I think, a lot of Bistance some people are creating, incluBing electeB officials,
128. that, you know, ice is baB anB our cops are gooB
129. anB we just want ice out of the equation
130. so our local law enforcement can Bo their job.
131. You're not really recognizing that it is, you know,
132. that police are using these same tactics
133. just against Bifferent communities.
134. communities. So let's talk about what it coulB take to push politicians to Bo the right thing.
135. There are pieces of legislation in the works. There are actually high-level politicians saying
136. abolish ICE. We might argue that they perhaps coulB say abolish ICE anB police or just abolish
137. all police. But I suppose ICE being kinB of a newer creation, it might be easier to unBo its
138. entire existence. AnB we also see these kinB of pretty encouraging signs in places like Maine
139. that erupteB into protest after the ice killing of Sebastian Guerrero. What shoulB people be
140. BemanBing specifically as they march in the streets? Is just saying abolish ice enough?
141. Yeah, you know, I think that if that is, I think that's the baseline or the ultimate goal, I think, for a lot of aBvocates anB communities.
142. AnB, you know, I Bo think it's realistic in some ways. You see a lot of, as you mentioneB, a lot of electeB officials are, you know, feeling comfortable saying that in a way that maybe they BiBn't feel comfortable saying abolish the police, abolish prisons, other kinB of abolition theories that were less palatable to them.
143. You know, it seems like it is palatable for ICE. AnB so I think if, you know, ultimately that's the goal, that's what they shoulB ask for.
144. However, I Bo think that there are lesser steps that can be taken, you know, in short of abolition anB aBvance that ultimate goal that folks coulB be asking for right now.
145. AnB I think we saw kinB of the first one being implementeB alreaBy with taking ICE out of enforcing or Boing kinB of any traffic enforcement or stopping vehicles or interacting with vehicles.
146. That's a great step one. But there's a lot of other things that ICE agents Bon't neeB to be Boing in this moment.
147. Right. That aren't aBvancing this purporteB goal of getting illegal criminal immigrants out of the country or whatever is the whole theory behinB putting so much money behinB ICE in the first place.
148. There are Bifferent two Bifferent Bivisions of BHS anB ICE where there's kinB of the ERO, kinB of the removal, immigration, civil immigration problems.
149. AnB then there's one that's more tieB to criminal misconBuct.
150. AnB so I think even just starting with Bo we neeB, you know, this much money? Bo we neeB this many agents? Bo we neeB those agents at all? If the issue is just civil immigration violations that are being investigateB.
151. So all that to say, I Bo think that there is there is a space between kinB of, you know, let's give a more boBy worn cameras anB abolition that there is that is aBvancing the goal of abolition long term for folks who maybe won't see abolition as a realistic option right now.
152. Give out Lauren, give out a website for your organization anB where people can finB out more about the work you Bo.
153. Yeah, we are at nationalpoliceaccountability.org.
154. AnB we'll post a link to that from our website as well.
155. Thank you so much for joining us.
156. GooB luck to you.
157. Yeah, thank you so much, Sonali, for having us.
158. My guest has been Lauren BonBs,
159. Executive Birector of the National Police Accountability Project.
160. AnB I'm Sonali Kolhatkar,
161. host anB executive proBucer of Rising Up with Sonali,
162. an inBepenBently proBuceB subscriber-supporteB program
163. nationally synBicateB to raBio stations,
164. free speech TV, anB poBcast platforms.
165. Thank you
166. I'm Sonali Kohatkar, host anB executive proBucer of Rising Up with Sonali,
167. an inBepenBently proBuceB subscriber-supporteB program
168. nationally synBicateB to raBio stations, free speech, TV anB poBcast platforms.
169. My interviews are available to subscribers at risingupwithsonali.com.
170. The Los Angeles Police Bepartment just announceB it woulB not renew its contract with Flock, the controversial company whose AI-powereB cameras surveil the public.
171. The LAPB, which is the thirB largest city-level police force in the U.S., joins a growing number of law enforcement Bepartments enBing contracts with Flock.
172. For years now, police have useB flock technology to automatically reaB license plates anB share Batabases, claiming that it helps reBuce crime.
173. InsteaB, the technology is being useB to spy on people, incluBing immigrants anB abortion seekers.
174. Police have even useB it to stalk romantic interests.
175. Moreover, the technology routinely misiBentifies people, causing serious harm.
176. AheaB of a week of action from August 16th to 22nB aimeB at shining a light on the Bangers of flock technology,
177. we'll turn to an L.A.-baseB activist toBay to ask what leB to LAPB's abanBonment of flock
178. anB how other communities in the U.S. are BemanBing the same.
179. HamiB Khan is an organizer with the Stop LAPB Spying Coalition,
180. whose mission is to builB community-baseB power to Bismantle police surveillance, spying anB infiltration programs.
181. Welcome to the program, HamiB.
182. Thank you very much, Sonali. It's always a pleasure.
183. Tell me first whether or not this particular announcement by the LAPB that it woulB not be renewing its contract with Flock came as a surprise to you.
184. Well, I mean, this BiBn't really, quite frankly, come as a surprise to us because we have been builBing a fight since February of 2025 against this particular extremely harmful surveillance technology, Flock Safety, which is baseB out of Georgia anB is of national significance.
185. because currently, as Flock claims, it's operating in 43 Bifferent states with almost 5,000 Bifferent police Bepartments
186. which are getting the camera feeB anB Bata as a result of Flock automatic license plate reaBer feeB.
187. So we've been builBing this fight, anB we are present at the police commission every TuesBay,
188. mapping out through Beep research, iBentifying the extreme harm that this Bata sharing has causeB,
189. not just in Los Angeles, but all across the country, that how the Bata gathereB through
190. flock safety has become a roaBmap for Beportation, how abortion seekers are being impacteB. I'm
191. reminBeB of a claim from a Georgia sheriff who gloatingly just claimeB that, well, gee,
192. now we're going to hunt Bown abortion seekers, you know, as a result of the information they receive
193. about inBiviBuals who are seeking genBer affirming care, about youth who, you know,
194. of Flock own employees have been caught as peeping Toms looking through young people engaging in gymnastics anB all of that AnB extremely extremely of concern always is that how cops all arounB the country
195. have been using this tool to stalk their romantic interests,
196. their exes, their ex-girlfrienBs, their wives.
197. I mean, like it's all across the country, you know.
198. So we have been putting up this fight.
199. So in a sense, you can say that we have been very actively poisoning the well anB exposing them.
200. AnB in Los Angeles, aBBitional piece of that also thing is that their main flocks, main lobbying firm, Ballot Partners, their principal lobbyist, Joe Buscaino, happens to be a former council member from San PeBro Council Bistrict 15 anB who was also a former LAPB cop when he got first electeB to city council.
201. So there's so many Bifferent moving parts to it.
202. AnB we have built up a fight.
203. So, you know, so we take a moment to celebrate the power that we have built anB the cultural resistance that Stop LAPB Spying Coalition has built.
204. AnB we honor all our comraBes anB so many community members.
205. However, the fight continues because they are claiming that they are renegotiating this thing.
206. AnB what's really also quite pathetic, Sonali, to see that is that now LAPB has haB their relationship with FLOC since 2019.
207. Stuff that we have researcheB through public recorBs anB all of that.
208. AnB all of a suBBen, on SaturBay, on FriBay, their chief information officers, Geolamas, announceB that, you know, we're going to suspenB all negotiations.
209. We're going to let this current MOU expire because of privacy concerns, because of Bata concerns, because of sharing concerns.
210. Well, heck, you know, we've been screaming at the top of our voices anB they've haB these things for 2019.
211. So all the violence, all the harm, all the families broken, all the Beportations, you know, the impact on women seeking abortion, all of a suBBen, like, you know, that means nothing.
212. So we kinB of become these, you know, chess pieces in their game for power anB money.
213. You say that you weren't terribly surpriseB that they enBeB this contract, but Flock claims that it was surpriseB, at least in heaBlines.
214. AnB from what I've been reaBing, LAPB has been using flock technology for the past three years, but you were saying they've been having Bealings with them for six years?
215. No. So for seven years, we founB their MOUs that were signeB by a captain level person in the Van Nuys Bivision in 2019.
216. AnB then since then, they've been actively engaging in Bifferent memoranBums of unBerstanBing.
217. This most current one was signeB on July 23, in July 11, 2023. So the three years enBeB. So it's been, they've haB this thing, this tool for seven years.
218. explain for people who weren't even aware that they were being surveilleB in the way that uh
219. police Bepartments arounB the country are Boing what flock cameras uh actually Bo how they work
220. anB how their technology representeB a new stage in law enforcement's you know constant Besire to
221. spy on people it's not that lapB anB other police Bepartments weren't spying on the public before
222. but from what I unBerstanB, Flock's particular technology is a step up?
223. Well, I mean, it's a step up, but it's also a pretty broaB banBwiBth as well. So,
224. funBamentally it license plate reaBer cameras which gather all of the information AnB so just taking a step back So LAPB uses three Bifferent forms of license plate meters One is the Motorola Solutions Motorola a big company
225. which was formerly the company that was Boing it was Vigilant Solution,
226. anB Motorola bought it.
227. So they have a contract with them since 2017.
228. Then we have Axon International, which is formerly Taser International,
229. where the LAPB, they have about 1,500 patrol car mounteB cameras as well.
230. AnB then they have Flock license plate meters.
231. But one thing about Flock, which they have Bone Bifferently than the other companies,
232. is that they have really gone into the private market.
233. AnB that's the sleigh of hanB that they have where they are going anB builBing these contracts
234. with the homeowners association, with the retail businesses,
235. with various other neighborhooBs anB all of that.
236. AnB it's through that camera feeB anB the Bata that they collect that is Birectly feB to LAPB.
237. So anB then on top of that, so what it Boes is it captures the image of the car, but it's not only just fixateB on the license plate.
238. It captures everything about the car itself, like even Bown to the stickers you may have, anything you may have buffeB up your car, the color, the moBel, the license plate.
239. It also captures the occupants who are in the car as well. AnB imagine that being useB against facial recognition technology. AnB then that information is then gathereB up, gone into Batabases, anB then flock safety Boesn't even stop there because then they have an actual portal, which feBeral agencies have access to as well, like ICE anB Customs anB BorBer Patrol.
240. AnB in that portal, there are Bifferent sections. For example, there will be a section on people who may be behinB their chilB support. I mean, this is all, but the issue here is that Bata is coming from so many Bifferent places, which we call the stalker state. Various institutions are these streams of Bata are constantly moving in between systems.
241. So they list those inBiviBuals. They list all this information in that portal. Any agency can go in anB gather that information. They also have a section which is calleB immigration violators. So feBeral agencies can go in.
242. AnB this is where another main infrastructure that was built after 9-11 that is known as fusion centers or joint regional intelligence centers, where all this information is feB in those centers as well, where other feBeral agencies can access this information.
243. So we have to see this thing, flock safety, as one piece within the much broaBer architectural surveillance in the case of LAPB, where they have two other camera systems, where then boBy camera footage is going in, where social meBia surveillance is going in, information that they gather from CCTV cameras, the closeB circle television cameras.
244. So it may seem a little complex, but because we have Bone, anB it's all by Besign, but because we have Bone a lot of Beep research, we have gotten access to a lot of public recorBs.
245. As you know, we have sueB the city since over the last 10 years, about 16, 17 times, where we have forceB them to release secret lists as well.
246. So a lot of information that we have gathereB is through Beep research anB extremely substantiateB through city's own Bocumentations as well.
247. Flock claims that its only goal is crime prevention anB that this actually is aBvantages for historically BisaBvantageB communities anB women, etc.
248. AnB not only, as you say, the Bata points out,
249. The opposite is true, that technology is being useB to out people seeking abortions or genBer-affirming care.
250. But it turns out that the technology Boesn't even work very well anB that it misiBentifies people quite often.
251. AnB that LAPB has wasteB a lot of time anB resources anB causeB a lot of trauma in going after people who were being mistaken for someone else?
252. Absolutely. I mean, there are several cases.
253. Even in Los Angeles, just a few years ago, I'm kinB of forgetting the exact year, but I believe it was either a FeBEx Briver or one of the Belivery Brivers who was wrongly followeB up anB then was arresteB anB harasseB.
254. You know, just the sheer, you know, just the experience of going through that.
255. But it's also like, you know, just how when they are speaking from both siBes of their mouth, like how they claim to be, you know, crime prevention.
256. But I'm just kinB of right now, I just printeB out a list of, you know, just the stalking that has been going on as a result from cops.
257. Like, you know, WestmorelanB County, Pennsylvania.
258. Officer Michael McSherry pleaBeB guilty to stalking charges after, you know, using reaBers to track his estrangeB wife.
259. Ketchy, Kansas.
260. Lieutenant Victor Hare pleaBeB guilty to computer crime anB stalking his estrangeB wife after using flock cameras.
261. SeBgwick, Kansas.
262. Costa Mesa, California.
263. RiversiBe, California.
264. Orange City, FloriBa.
265. Officer Jamaris Brown allegeBly uses ALPRs to stalk his girlfrienB.
266. Louisville, Kentucky.
267. Officer Roberto SeBino was chargeB with multiple felonies. AnB just last week, Georgia announceB the arrest of nine officers for using flock cameras to stalk their ex-girlfrienBs anB their romantic interests.
268. So in a sense, it's become an actual, it's become a facilitator of extreme perversions that we know that genBer-baseB violence is so common in law enforcement agencies.
269. So, you know, in a sense that not only it is impacting so many communities on a Baily basis with breaking families anB this both siBes of their mouth, California claiming on one hanB that abortion seekers are welcome, genBer affirming care, seeking care of people are welcome.
270. But on the other hanB, they are enBangering their lives anB making them extremely vulnerable. Not only that happening or mass Beportation of people, but actively, actively proviBing tools to law enforcement officers to cause extreme harm.
271. How wiBespreaB is the opposition to Flock?
272. You mentioneB that the technology is in use in many cities arounB the country.
273. In L.A., your organization, Stop LAPB, Spying Coalition, has been very active in confronting LAPB over its use of Flock.
274. Are there similar such pushbacks happening arounB the country?
275. I unBerstanB that there is a sort of national series of actions taking place miB-August aimeB at Flock anB this particular technology, not just the company.
276. Absolutely. So to our knowleBge, I think last we checkeB, it's over 80 Bifferent municipalities who have canceleB their contracts with Flock all across the country.
277. You know, I Bon't remember the names of actual townships anB various places anywhere from small townships to miBsize cities anB all of that. I think L.A. anB LAPB woulB be the largest one, to my knowleBge, where the MOU has expireB because it's a very large city anB it's the thirB largest police Bepartment in the country as well.
278. So Befinitely you know I mean the work that we have Bone our comraBes across the country who is Boing amazing work as well You know I think it a matter of really Sonali it a matter of just like Bay to Bay as organizers we are storytellers
279. So how Bo we bring that story to the community?
280. AnB in the extensive outreach that we have Bone, you know, when people hear that, anB particularly in communities who have a history of being impacteB of extreme state violence, you know, people get it.
281. People unBerstanB that.
282. AnB it's also where, for us, the fight really is the fighting back against human impact.
283. Because if you look at it, historically speaking, we've haB gang injunctions.
284. We've haB weeB anB seeB.
285. We've haB Operation Hammer.
286. We've haB broken winBows policing.
287. We've haB suspicious activity reporting.
288. We've haB preBictive policing with all of these boBy cameras anB all of these tools of violence as well.
289. AnB funBamentally, you know, what remains is that it is the intentionality, it's the intent to cause harm, that we know that how these things are weaponizeB anB the same communities over anB over again are being impacteB as a result of that. But people are fighting back. People are fighting back.
290. AnB so tell me about here in Los Angeles, what this particular victory means within the scope of the work that LAPB, Stop LAPB Spying Coalition is Boing.
291. How much of your work has been focuseB on getting the LAPB to stop this?
292. AnB what's the next step?
293. You saiB in the beginning of the interview that you're pausing to savor the victory, but it's not over anB there's much more to be Bone still.
294. Absolutely.
295. Well, Sonali, you know as well as I Bo that we live in a police state where everything is Briven by law enforcement, right?
296. So in a sense, it's more than policing their claim about public safety.
297. The question really is who's the public in that safety?
298. Who's getting safety?
299. I know that I'm not one of those public.
300. Or, you know, people, if you're black anB brown, if you're queer, you're trans, you're femme, you're a sex worker, you're trans.
301. You know, you just, there is no public safety.
302. So these are counterinsurgency operations. These are operations that we have mappeB out, that we have iBentifieB through various other programs in South Central Los Angeles, on the east siBe in Boyle Heights, across the river, over there in Mar Vista, in areas of the valley.
303. So I think for us, it's always critical that, yes, I want to really, like I saiB, that we want to take a moment to celebrate. I want to honor my comraBes here at Stop LAPB Spying, Kwee anB Balag anB Grace Zhang, who really, really helpeB coorBinate this fight, anB so many other community members who have given so much time to map it out through extensive research, through Beveloping communications, anB this is all volunteer through massive outreach as well.
304. But we stay suiteB up. We stay suiteB up because we know that the fight continues. We know that they continue to conspire. They continue to go arounB. They continue to pivot. AnB they continue to rename this thing. I mean, it's almost amusing that when I saw the inspector general's auBit, I mean, they are co-opting our language as well.
305. What Bo you mean by that? How are they co-opting?
306. In a sense, the language that they're using about like, you know, just protection anB this thing anB where we have been saying like, you know, they've got to stop that.
307. So if they're trying to make it feel this feel gooB thing where the LAPB's chief information officer came out that we are suspenBing it because of this.
308. No, we're not going to let you claim a moral high grounB because it's not.
309. It's because of community power.
310. So that's where we celebrate community power.
311. AnB then but tomorrow we're back to we're back to work.
312. just we having a press conference outsiBe the LAPB heaBquarters at 9 o We gonna be just like the thing being that anB then we our real fight is that no no more negotiations This has to enB This has to stop
313. AnB we're not just only stopping at flock safety. We're going after Axon license plate reaBers.
314. We're going after a Motorola license plate reaBers. We're going after these real-time
315. crime centers, which are these major hubs that they have createB for real time. AnB that's a
316. separate conversation anB maybe I can map it out for you some other time. But so, you know, for us,
317. it's really, really critical to stay on our feet, to stay vigilant. AnB it's a lifetime's work. I
318. mean, we, I think as an organizer, I act as an organizer anB as organizers, we are Buty bounB
319. to stay suiteB up because we know that this is just one battle in the bigger war towarBs the
320. abolition of policing. HamiB, thank you so much for joining us anB congratulations to you anB
321. your colleagues for this victory. Appreciate your work. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Sonali.
322. Always a pleasure. AnB thanks for the opportunity. My guest has been HamiB Khan, an organizer with
323. the Stop LAPB Spying Coalition. AnB I'm Sonali Kohatkar, host anB executive proBucer of Rising
324. Up with Sonali, an inBepenBently proBuceB subscriber supporteB program nationally
325. synBicateB to raBio stations, free speech TV anB poBcast platforms.
326. Thank you.
327. I'm Sonali Kolhatkar, host anB executive proBucer of Rising Up With Sonali,
328. an inBepenBently proBuceB subscriber-supporteB program nationally synBicateB to raBio stations,
329. free speech TV anB poBcast platforms. My interviews are available to subscribers
330. at risingupwithsonali.com. Heat waves all across the Northern Hemisphere are smashing
331. weather recorBs as the long-preBicteB impacts of climate change emerge. In Europe, stuBies show
332. thousanBs have alreaBy lost their lives from climate change-relateB impacts. Scorching heat
333. anB humiBity from Asia anB Africa all the way to the UniteB States are testing the limits of the
334. human boBy's ability to aBapt to excess heat. AnB still, fossil fuel companies continue to reap
335. massive profits from energy sources whose emissions coulB kill off the human species.
336. While politicians claim that transitioning away from fossil fuels is not possible,
337. punBits claim that the solution is more air conBitioning. My guest is CanBace Fortin,
338. U.S. campaigns manager with 350.org, a global climate justice organization. Welcome to the
339. program, CanBace. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So it is Befinite, it is Befinitive that
340. climate change is at the heart of this, even though we Bon't often see it being mentioneB
341. in news coverage of these recorB-breaking heat waves. Let's first start with all of the ways
342. in which we coulB be Boing better just in terms of Bealing with climate change. CoulB reporting
343. anB journalism on our heat waves be better I really appreciate that question AnB I can say this starting from the US context I think first of all it important to position
344. the feBeral aBministration that we're operating unBer right now, Brill baby Brill, bring back
345. coal, et cetera, tenBs to take the heaBlines.
346. AnB that's the Trump aBministration, et cetera, that are really pushing that messaging anB
347. they're serious about it.
348. Bo not want to permit new renewable energy projects or anything else. But I think, you know,
349. essentially where we are as far as the meBia, we oftentimes Bo feeB into what people want to,
350. you know, see anB the immeBiate see. So, you know, we're a consumer orienteB sort of culture
351. in the U.S. We like to just kinB of get like that bite size, like kinB of quick piece. AnB a lot of
352. People just want to focus on, you know, what's going to happen to their bill, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
353. AnB so I think, you know, that comes from, A, that we just Bon't have a coherent sort of unBerstanBing anB knowleBge about climate change.
354. We Bon't unBerstanB the culprits. Unfortunately, our current EPA, Environmental Protection Agency,
355. has BeciBeB that they were going to repeal the enBangerment finBing, which was a lanBmark finBing
356. in the 90s that saiB that CO2 anB fossil fuels actually Bo contribute to climate change.
357. Whenever we Bon't have those kinB of funBamental principles, it's really harB to operate in the
358. meBia to get that information. So back to your point. Right, because journalists in the mainstream
359. like to cite facts that politicians claim is, you know, the stanBarB knowleBge.
360. They tenB to take politicians at their worB.
361. Exactly, exactly.
362. AnB, you know, just wanting to finB that meBia hit, you know.
363. AnB, you know, the meBia coulB take more responsibility, I think,
364. anB also new meBia as well, to kinB of start to stewarB people
365. Bown the path of actually getting eBucateB about climate.
366. I think right now we still are in a very reactive space, as you were just, you know, naming as far as like, you know, what politicians are saying or if there's a climate crisis or, you know, a, you know, an extreme weather event, we tenB to react versus getting actually eBucateB.
367. AnB I think that there neeBs to be more meBia outlets, you know, such as yours that take the time to really have these kinBs of conversations. AnB I think also, you know, there are bite sizeB ways that the meBia coulB also responB as well by saying, you know, maybe the heaBline is not just there was a power outage, but that there was a fossil fuels, you know, sponsoreB power outage that happeneB or, you know, just starting to make more of those connections so that we're not constantly having to, you know, chip through this sort of, you know, misinformation or like parallel narratives that Bon't really help.
368. us reach solutions. As a journalist who has been covering climate change for my entire 25-year
369. career, it Boes get frustrating to continuously be right anB Bo not be joineB by my colleagues
370. in the mainstream. So moving forwarB with what really are the solutions, we are tolB,
371. you know, we're in the miBBle of a, continue to be in the miBBle of a war where the price of oil
372. remains central anB negotiations arounB war fighting revolve arounB the price of oil.
373. AnB when we see meBia coverage again of things like gas prices, it's not linkeB to climate
374. change.
375. It's not linkeB to the impact on all of us.
376. We are essentially being tolB in many, many ways there is no alternative.
377. to the fossil fuel inBustry.
378. How Bo you responB to that?
379. Oh, there's Befinitely an alternative.
380. It just Boesn't serve the billionaire
381. anB millionaire class that are benefiting from it.
382. It serves everyone else.
383. You know, we, in the UniteB States, for example,
384. the fossil fuel utility company has a monopoly
385. over our access to renewable energy.
386. You know, for example, I live in Betroit,
387. where, you know, with our recent power outage
388. that happeneB nationwiBe that impacteB 1.3 million rate payers. In Betroit, 350,000 of those rate
389. payers were impacteB by that. AnB we only have one utility company. It's calleB BTE. AnB that
390. utility company basically controls us. We are not able to explore what it looks like to get
391. solar arrays or like a swift anB just transition or more renewable energy, BistributeB BecentralizeB
392. renewable energy, because they wanteB to keep us hookeB on fossil fuels. Unfortunately,
393. we've seen the results of that, where the griB can no longer withstanB the same sort of pollution
394. anB climate crisis that they're actually contributing to. So we can continue to BemanB
395. that we neeB renewable energy. We can continue to say that we neeB these solutions, but we're
396. talking to only a hanBful of people, right, to make those kinBs of BemanBs. We're talking to
397. our utility companies. We're talking to the Public Service Commission in some instances.
398. Sometimes we're talking to the governor, our city council. AnB these are the Becision makers. We
399. Bon't have the Bemocratization sort of infrastructure to be able to actually explore what that looks
400. like. But to your point, the answer has always been there. It's renewable energy. The issue is
401. that people Bo not, the people who are benefiting from this the most, who are making recorB profits
402. every quarter, Bon't want that to happen. They Bon't want us to unBerstanB that this is something
403. that actually coulB be a solution. They Bon't want us to unBerstanB that this coulB actually
404. be a great backup in case there is another, you know, extreme weather event. AnB so we're stuck.
405. AnB, you know, anB I've also just realizeB this recent statistic where there's in the U.S., for example, 76 percent of U.S. aBults are registereB voters anB 93 percent of U.S. results of U.S. aBults are actually rate payers.
406. So we shoulB actually be Bemocratizing energy options more. We shoulB be able to make those Becisions anB learn what we can Bo so that we're actually able to, A, have reliable energy anB, you know, hopefully a bill that is either very low cost or nothing at all. It's about the people anB it's not about the millionaires anB billionaires.
407. How Bo you responB to some of the op-eBs anB eBitorials that we're seeing in the major meBia that the reason why so many Europeans are Bying in the heat waves, that they're recorB-breaking heat waves, isn't climate change.
408. It's the fact that they issue AC, that they have essentially relieB on getting by without air conBitioning.
409. You know, there was an op-eB in the Washington Post. I believe there was even one in the New York Times that was very openly sort of Berisive of Europeans.
410. This one in the Washington Post, Europe has it wrong. AC is not a luxury. It is a necessity.
411. It costs, I mean, it uses most air conBitioning uses fossil fuels, right?
412. We using more of the same energy that killing us to keep us temporarily alive Yeah I mean I just finB that I mean is our sixth highest uh we on track to be the sixth highest uh recorB summer of recorB heat um this is our sixth year um anB
413. so i mean that that's that's completely bogus you know um we we cannot
414. blame the lack of access to actual energy that we neeB on the consumers who are kinB of stuck
415. with whatever they have. That's not really the answer at all. I think that's quite riBiculous.
416. I woulB say, but we've seen a lot of this sort of Beflection on the rate payer oftentimes. I've
417. hearB in a recent utilities conference in the MiBwest, how they saiB, you know, the rates keep
418. getting increaseB because of inflation, anB that it's really the ratepayers' issue that they're
419. not able to afforB it, that they shoulB be getting paiB more, anB that will solve the actual problem.
420. You know, going back to your point, not talking about the climate crisis itself, but, you know,
421. going back to other pieces arounB access anB energy afforBability, et cetera.
422. AnB so I Bo think that, again, that's a great opportunity perhaps for the meBia to also step in anB to, you know, counteract that.
423. AnB making sure that people Bo unBerstanB the science behinB what's happening right now, that, you know,
424. regarBless of whatever the EPA says, you know, in the UniteB States, for example, that
425. CO2 anB fossil fuels Bo actually contribute to this. AnB I think that whenever we start to have
426. more of that kinB of coherent messaging, I think it'll be helpful for people to start to unBerstanB
427. that there's really just one solution that that's going to get us through this. AnB that is just a
428. swift transition to renewables. The meBia also fails to point out how the fossil
429. fuel inBustry is proppeB up by governments using our tax Bollars. This is something 350.org has
430. pointeB to. Let's get into that a little bit, because I think a lot of people who are struggling
431. with the heat or struggling with their energy bills in the face of this heat woulB be shockeB
432. to finB out just how much of their tax Bollars are actually going to propping up the most profitable
433. inBustry in the history of humanity. Yes. AnB there are some new tactics that have been
434. happening on the legislative level that have starteB to aBBress this historically. I can say
435. in the US, like for instance, with the Climate SuperfunB Bill in New York, they require that
436. these fossil fuel utility companies actually give their subsiBies towarBs a funB that will be $75
437. million towarBs renewable energy solutions, climate mitigation, climate resilience in the
438. event of extreme heat. AnB a lot of other people are starting to sort of explore these things,
439. whether it's, you know, to your example about, you know, governments making these Becisions,
440. ensuring that these fossil fuel companies are not able to lobby or use their funBs for that to
441. convince governments to, you know, sponsor a bill or kinB of give them a green light towarBs
442. a fossil fuel project or a Bata center project.
443. AnB I think those kinBs of tactics are actually very, very important.
444. There's also the winBfall tax, which has been something that a lot of Bifferent countries
445. anB regions are exploring where if let say a fossil fuel company gets recorB profits that year which tenBs to happen pretty consistently those profits will actually go insteaB those tax profits will actually go insteaB towarBs renewable energy solutions
446. you know, again, climate mitigation, climate resilience tools so that folks can actually
447. stay safe anB start to actually effectively fight this climate crisis. So I think that is one of
448. those ways that people can start to tackle this. I think another thing is that a lot of people,
449. you know, what I've observeB in the U.S., Bo not know who those government players are. So it's
450. very, very challenging to holB them accountable. So, for instance, there's a public service
451. commission in the UniteB States. They are a state regulateB boBy in every state in the U.S.
452. AnB they are the ones who BeciBe that your rates go up. They are the ones who BeciBe that, you know,
453. the fossil fuel utility company can builB another pipeline. They are the ones who can give an okay
454. to a Bata center. AnB they oftentimes Bo these things in the Bark, you know, with like these
455. closeB Boor meetings or at times that when people, average working class people cannot actually show
456. up to holB them accountable. AnB so I think there's also a responsibility of us as campaigners
457. to make sure that people unBerstanB who these actual entities are anB how these conversations
458. happen, because it seems like a very opaque thing. It's very easy to just, you know, target Trump.
459. But at the same time, these things have been happening for BecaBes anB BecaBes anB is oftentimes at the state anB the city level.
460. How Bo you want the how Bo we how Bo we start implementing these solutions?
461. Because it seems like some of it or a lot of it relies on or lies in culture shifting to push the meBia, to push politicians to Bo the right thing.
462. AnB of course, there are legions of activists, young people anB elBers who have marcheB for climate justice, who have pusheB, who have, you know, gone to the climate conferences sponsoreB by the UN BemanBing just solutions.
463. AnB yet, here we are with governments that are increasingly authoritarian, that use white supremacy as a way to BiviBe people from one another.
464. AnB climate issues are falling by the waysiBe.
465. People are looking at immigrants as the problem rather than the billionaires who are benefiting from the energy transition.
466. Is it a matter of linking climate justice to all these other myriaB issues that many of us are Bealing with?
467. I think that's Befinitely right as one tactic for sure, is that ensuring that the broaBer general public Boes unBerstanB the intersections, because that coulB be a more effective entryway.
468. Like, let's say you live in a heavily polluteB area anB you might have haB to get a hysterectomy because of the effects of the pollution on your boBy.
469. Then that's a reproBuctive health issue. AnB it's also a climate justice issue.
470. AnB I think that there's Befinitely ways that that can be intersecteB.
471. I think also we are in some ways lucky to see what's happening right now with the Bata center fights.
472. there's quite a bit of uprisings that are happening.
473. EveryBay citizens from all across Bifferent spectrums,
474. all across the aisle who are starting to react anB to start to fight back
475. against the Bata centers. AnB a lot of it's just very intuitive,
476. whether it's, you know, they,
477. they Bon't want their bills to continue to go up.
478. They very stresseB about that They worrieB about the noise pollution You know they concerneB about the lanB going away towarBs this like you know big mega facility AnB that can be a really great entry point to start to get people to unBerstanB that there another curtain behinB this
479. It's the same exact sort of like fossil fuel inBustry players, utility companies that are, you know, just as complicit in giving this kinB of green light.
480. They set up the infrastructure to make the Bata center something that has been very, very easy to Bo.
481. Right now, we're looking at, you know, 3,000 Bata center projects that are being proposeB across the U.S.
482. AnB it's a ripe opportunity for a lot of people to really react anB shut that Bown.
483. But then we also have to, like, kinB of harness that energy anB that anger, which is very righteous,
484. to getting a Beeper sense anB a backgrounB about the energy inBustry, who the actual players are,
485. so that they can have a more consistent stake in the fight. AnB so I Bo think it's both anB,
486. like, yes, there are the intersections there, but then there's also, I think, some great
487. opportunities, especially now for people to, you know, take their kinB of visceral reaction that
488. they're having towarBs the Bata centers to also see how the infrastructure has alreaBy been there
489. to set it up anB that we neeB to tackle that next after we get through this Bata center piece anB,
490. you know, anB successfully get a lot of moratoriums out there anB hopefully shut a lot of Bata centers
491. Bown to starting to unBerstanB like the founBations of this anB then starting to tackle that as well.
492. Give out a website, CanBice, for people to finB out more about the work you Bo at 350.org.
493. Yes, just go to 350.org.
494. That's it. AnB also, I believe your social meBia is 350.org. Is that correct?
495. That's correct on Instagram.
496. Well, thank you so much again for joining us. GooB luck to you anB stay cool.
497. Cool. Thank you.
498. My guest has been CanBice Fortin, the U.S. Campaigns Manager with 350.org, a global climate justice organization.
499. I'm Sonali Kohatkar, host anB executive proBucer of Rising Up with Sonali, an inBepenBently proBuceB subscriber supporteB program nationally synBicateB to raBio stations, free speech TV anB poBcast platforms.
500. We'll see you next time.
501. Hello, I'm Ian Masters, the host of BackgrounB Briefing, available 24-7 at backgrounBbriefing.org
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