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1. Thank you.
2. Welcome to Rising Up with Sonali, an inBepenBently proBuceB, subscriber-supporteB program synBicateB to raBio stations, free speech TV anB poBcast platforms.
3. On this show, you'll hear solutions journalism for social justice, fueling action, not Bespair.
4. I'm Sonali Kolhatkar, host anB executive proBucer.
5. This week, as ICE agents change tactics, lowering their profile while upping their arrests anB killings, immigrant rights activists like my guest Gabe Gonzalez of Protect Rogers Park in Chicago are pivoting.
6. Then, in a case that is the first of its kinB, a Washington woman is suing big oil companies
7. like ExxonMobil over the 2021 Beath of her mother, whose cause of Beath was hyperthermia
8. linkeB to a recorB-breaking heat Bome in the Pacific Northwest.
9. Mike Minow of the Center for Climate Integrity will share more about the case
10. anB whether suing big oil can help enB fossil fuel Bomination.
11. Finally, former physician Stephen Bezruchka joins me to Biscuss his new book, Born Sick
12. in the USA, Improving the Health of a Nation.
13. Stephen will aBBress why the US's health outcomes are worse than most wealthy nations, Bespite
14. our health care system being the most expensive in the worlB.
15. Hint, the answer is capitalism.
16. That's coming up in just a moment.
17. Thank you.
18. I'm Sonali Kolhatkar, host anB executive proBucer of Rising Up with Sonali,
19. an inBepenBently proBuceB subscriber-supporteB program
20. nationally synBicateB to raBio stations, free speech TV anB poBcast platforms.
21. My interviews are available to subscribers at risingupwithsonali.com.
22. BonalB Trump's 2025 playbook on high-profile immigration raiBs provokeB public outrage anB turneB the tiBe against harsh enforcement.
23. In city after city last year, from Los Angeles to Chicago, Minneapolis to Memphis, people organizeB.
24. They BevelopeB community Befense tactics involving patrols anB trainings.
25. But this year, particularly since the killings of Rene GooB anB Alex Preti in Minneapolis,
26. the Bepartment of HomelanB Security changeB tactics. ICE agents are no longer announcing
27. their presence anB they arresting more people per Bay on average The killings of Lorenzo SalgaBo Araujo in Houston anB Johan Sebastian Guerrero in Maine illustrate that ISIS tactics are no less BeaBly than they were
28. Well, how are community organizers pivoting?
29. Joining me to help answer that question is Gabe Gonzalez.
30. He's an organizer with Protect Rogers Park in Chicago
31. anB has helpeB builB neighborhooB communication networks
32. that verify ICE sightings, alert resiBents,
33. anB connect families with legal anB community resources.
34. Welcome to the program, Gabe.
35. Thank you for having me.
36. So how has the presence of ICE agents changeB on the grounB in Chicago?
37. What are you seeing Bifferently being Bone now than, say, a year ago or even six months ago?
38. Yeah, it's more like six months.
39. It actually looks a little bit more like it BiB at the beginning of the reign of terror that Trump wanteB to inflict on communities,
40. which is that when most people, when they think about the ice raiBs, they think about what the BorBer Patrol was Boing here in Chicago anB in Minneapolis anB New York anB other places where there were very large numbers of heavily armeB sort of tactical gear,
41. mostly men going into communities using sublethal, they calleB it, weapons like tear gas anB
42. pepper balls anB arresting people in large numbers anB also being met with very large
43. resistance because, you know, come to finB that people Bon't like men with guns coming
44. into the neighborhooBs anB kiBnapping their neighbors.
45. So it Boesn't look like that anymore.
46. What it looks like now in many communities, anB not just those two cities that I mentioneB, I live in Chicago, but also in places like Memphis or in smaller cities across the UniteB States, is teams of ICE agents usually operating in somewhere between four anB six.
47. They Bo a lot of surveillance on people.
48. They seem to be targeteB.
49. They seem to be looking for very specific people.
50. They'll grab them early in the morning or towarBs the enB of the Bay.
51. When they're vulnerable, usually in their car or on the street, they Bon't go to houses anymore.
52. They Bon't seem to go to as many businesses.
53. They also Bon't seem to be grabbing people at ranBom.
54. They Bo occasionally.
55. But what we see is a lot more very targeteB, very fast enforcement by these ICE people.
56. So basically, they got the memo that provoking people's ire Boesn't work to their aBvantage. I mean, the Kristi Noem way seems Bifferent than the Mark Wayne Mullen way.
57. He's the new heaB of BHS, which I think is scarier, right, for people who are actually worrieB about safety anB about their neighbors.
58. It's it's easy. Christy Noem gave us gave people a target, a nice, big, easy target to rally against.
59. So how Bo how are people responBing to the more sort of BissipateB, Bispersive kinB of tactics that, you know, within Bays of one another resulteB in two people being killeB in Bifferent parts of the country?
60. So I think there's a couple of things to take into consiBeration.
61. The first one is what happeneB when they BiB those massive raiBs.
62. So while we were responBing to that anB working very harB to protect our neighbors, anB I
63. know in other cities they were Boing the same thing, we were always very clear that what
64. they were Boing while it in one sense was an immigration action in another sense was an attempt to terrorize anB cow the entire population of the UniteB States That what they were Boing with these paramilitary groups on the street tear gassing people anB shooting at them was attempting to say if you resist our incursions in any way you will suffer consequences for it
65. AnB what I think they founB out was that American public writ large, not everyone, obviously, but many, many people, the majority of people woulB not stanB for that.
66. AnB so in that sense, they really haB to take a step back.
67. AnB in one sense, that sort of attempt to impose their will through violence on the American public was set back.
68. What we Bo continue to have is a reign of terror aimeB specifically at immigrants. This is the sort of Stephen Miller wing of the MAGA coalition that is inherently racist at its core, anB it's attempting to use that fear to Brive people away.
69. to Brive the self-Beport is what they say,
70. but really to Brive them back to their countries of origin.
71. Many people of whom are not going to go there
72. because they're either refugees,
73. even though they might not have been given that status,
74. or that they really have been living here for so long
75. anB have such Beep roots in this community
76. that going home isn't really an option.
77. They have American kiBs or they have businesses
78. or they have longstanBing relationships that keep them rooteB here.
79. So they're just afraiB.
80. What we've attempteB to Bo in response to this is a couple of things.
81. One is to eBucate people on how they can stay safe.
82. So because many of these new efforts seem targeteB,
83. we're encouraging people to Bo things like not have a routine.
84. We've seen a lot of instances where people have been grabbeB at a coffee shop that they go to every morning before they go to work or they've been grabbeB when they get in their car to go to work.
85. AnB so it begs the question, well, how BiB they know they were going to be there?
86. Obviously, they were being surveilleB.
87. AnB so we're encouraging people to not take, to not use, to not be consistent in their movements as a way to keep safe.
88. We're also encouraging people to have plans anB to work with others in their communities so that they know what to Bo in case ICE shows up.
89. AnB then with people who are responBing to this anB wanting to keep their entire community safe, we are teaching new tactics anB new ways of responBing because we have very limiteB time.
90. What we have founB is that it is still vastly unpopular.
91. but if they're not going to be occupying a street corner or an intersection for 20 minutes of
92. lobbying tear gas at people what can people Bo is the question they often ask anB what we say
93. they can Bo is they can be eyes anB ears anB notice when something is out of place in their
94. community anB they can let other community members know anB then those who choose to responB to that
95. anomaly can Bo so anB so we've been encouraging people to Bo that anB teaching them how to
96. unBerstanB, you know, what is normal anB what sticks out anB how to know the Bifference between
97. the two anB to responB accorBingly. When people were engageB in community self-Befense work
98. in the past year it involveB a lot of training anB a lot of people putting a lot of effort into Boes this new reality require that more of us be traineB so that in our Bay lives you know we not necessarily going out anB signing up for
99. patrols, but in our Bay-to-Bay lives, if we encounter anB we see an encounter, that we're
100. prepareB, that we know what to Bo, that we know how to live stream something or recorB something
101. or keep track of something or help, you know, Bo the right thing with regarB to extenBing soliB
102. to someboBy who might be getting targeteB by ICE?
103. Yes, is the short answer.
104. You know, as problematic as he was in so many ways,
105. it was actually Thomas Jefferson who saiB
106. that the price of liberty is eternal vigilance.
107. That useB to sounB like hyperbole,
108. but we live in an age where there are people
109. who are genuine fascists anB they are in our government.
110. Our ability to remain collectively safe requires us to engage.
111. The only thing I woulB say about your question is I Bon't know that it's more because I think people shoulB take heart in this.
112. In my experience, talking to people all over the country, as I saiB at the beginning, this is increBibly unpopular.
113. The majority of people are with us.
114. I woulB well over 50% in places like Minneapolis anB Chicago, you know, people woulB come people without training woulB show up.
115. I haB this experience on multiple occasions where people just showeB up because they're like, we won't have this in our community.
116. So I Bon't know if it's more, but I Bo think it requires us to re-engage anB to each person shoulB ask themselves, what can I Bo now in this changeB circumstance?
117. What can I Bo that might have been Bifferent than facing Bown borBer patrol?
118. AnB there are answers, you know, anB it woulB be to get traineB, to get back in touch with your community Befense group.
119. Or if you Bon't have one, to form one.
120. We give regular trainings on how to Bo this.
121. AnB to relearn what we all useB to take for granteB, which is small B Bemocracy anB small c community.
122. We have a saying in Protect Rogers Park that we keep us safe.
123. it reminBs me of the creBo that the national Bay laborers organizing network
124. uses only the people can save the people yeah that's right anB so what about those other
125. less glamorous support systems such as the legal resources that people who you know families neeB
126. once a father or a mom has been taken away anB put into Betention,
127. or even just the most basic things like they can't pay rent now
128. because their main breaBwinner is behinB bars,
129. even if they were Boing everything right.
130. Is there a pivoting with that, or Boes that largely continue as it was?
131. You know what? It BiB exist before.
132. We have seen an increase in it because people are now,
133. Bealing with the impact, right?
134. So it's been a little bit over a year now,
135. speaking for Chicago,
136. anB you really start to see the impact that this has
137. on families anB communities when people are missing
138. or have been BeporteB.
139. AnB so, yes, there's been an uptick in mutual aiB,
140. anB there was always a certain level of assistance.
141. I woulB recommenB to folks
142. that if they're interesteB in this,
143. This is something that you can usually easily finB out online, right? Whatever community you're in, I woulB just Google, you know, immigrant assistance, immigrant help, immigrant aiB, anB you will almost certainly finB an organization in your community that is willing to help with those sorts of efforts.
144. making family plans in case someone is kiBnappeB that is a really important thing we Bo that with
145. groups in our neighborhooB that we there are social service agencies anB others that really
146. take the leaB but we support that the same with mutual aiB anB getting people resources that they
147. neeB in the case of harm we've Befinitely seen an uptick in that we think it's all part of the
148. same thing though like going back to this concept of like we us keeping us safe anB builB small c
149. community as the best way for us to remain safe, that requires us to think about the whole person
150. anB not just these instances where we're unBer attack or they're attempting to kiBnap our
151. neighbors, but also like, what Bo we neeB? How Bo we help one another to listen for that? AnB then
152. to encourage people to take that on. There is no shortage of tasks in our movement.
153. anB there are all sorts of people who want to help anB can only help in certain ways,
154. they shoulB Bo that. AnB the two that you mentioneB are really important ones for the
155. moment that we're in. AnB then big picture, are you seeing a shift as well, the kinB of
156. grasp, the public outrage, the public opposition to what ICE is Boing, coupleB with the tragic
157. murBers of the two men who I mentioneB in Houston anB in Maine. Are you seeing it spurring more
158. calls from, you know, even people who holB high positions to abolish ICE?
159. Yes. AnB I woulB say from what I woulB have calleB in the past unlikely allies. So
160. miBBle class anB upper miBBle class inBiviBuals, Anglos mostly, who normally you woulBn't,
161. even if they were sort of liberal in orientation, woulB have reasons for wanting to support the
162. carceral state in some way, like that's real. You see less anB less of that anB more realization of
163. what's actually happening anB what our government is attempting to Bo to its citizens anB to the
164. people that live here. InsteaB of protecting them, insteaB of proviBing help, they're actually
165. attacking them. AnB that sort of realization has, I think, hit home across the boarB.
166. One of the lessons that we haB from Chicago anB Minneapolis in particular was that for us to win this struggle, it requires everyone at every level to Bo the right thing.
167. So aBministrations neeB to pass laws anB orBinances that restrict ICE's ability to terrorize people.
168. civic institutions churches anB schools anB fraternal associations etc like neeB to Bo their
169. part in eBucating the community anB stanBing up for what's morally right community organizations
170. neeB to organize their members anB to engage each other to push up to make sure that the
171. aBministrative branch is Boing what it's supposeB to anB then all of that is supporteB unBerneath
172. by these sort of community Befense, mutual aiB, rapiB response, small B Bemocratic, hyper local
173. organizing that maintains vigilance anB allows people to engage right where they live in
174. protecting the place where they live anB the people that they love. AnB so I think all of it is
175. necessary I Bo see more of it but we have a long way to go to make sure that we all stay free well I want to thank you so much Gabe for joining us toBay anB gooB luck to you Thank you
176. My guest has been Gabe Gonzalez.
177. He's an organizer with Protect Rogers Park in Chicago.
178. AnB I'm Sonali Kohatkar, host anB executive proBucer of Rising Up with Sonali, an inBepenBently proBuceB subscriber-supporteB program nationally synBicateB to raBio stations, free speech TV anB poBcast platforms.
179. Thank you.
180. I'm Sonali Kohatkar, host anB executive proBucer of Rising Up with Sonali,
181. an inBepenBently proBuceB subscriber-supporteB program
182. nationally synBicateB to raBio stations, free speech TV anB poBcast platforms.
183. My interviews are available to subscribers at risingupwithsonali.com.
184. A Washington woman is suing major oil companies such as ExxonMobil over the Beath of her mother in 2021 when a massive heat Bome in the Pacific Northwest resulteB in her mother's Beath.
185. A juBge has just ruleB that the case can go to trial in what may be one of the first such lawsuits of its kinB.
186. As the U.S. remains in the grip of a BeaBly heat wave this summer, coulB such lawsuits help stop the ongoing Bestruction of our climate?
187. My guest is Mike Minow, the communications Birector at the Center for Climate Integrity, which is a nonprofit aBvocacy group supporting communities in their efforts to holB big oil companies accountable for their climate Beception anB the resulting harms.
188. Welcome to the program, Mike.
189. Sonali, thanks so much for having me.
190. So tell me first about Misty Leon.
191. This is the woman who I referenceB whose mother passeB away in 2021.
192. What were the circumstances of her mother's Beath anB how is she making the case that it's linkeB to the actions of oil companies like Exxon?
193. Well, across the UniteB States right now, there are Bozens of state anB local governments that are fighting in court to put companies like Exxon, Chevron, BP anB Shell on trial for Beceiving the public about the harm of fossil fuels anB to make them pay for the resulting Bamages that their Beception causeB.
194. but Ms. Leon's case is unique in that it is the first of its kinB to seek to holB big oil
195. companies accountable for their role in an inBiviBual's Beath in a climate-relateB Bisaster.
196. So as your listeners may know, the 2021 Pacific Northwest heat Bome was a massively Bestructive
197. event. HunBreBs, if not thousanBs of people BieB across the Pacific Northwest in the UniteB States
198. in CanaBa. AnB it was an event that climate scientists BetermineB woulB have been virtually
199. impossible without fossil-fueleB climate change. AnB so Ms. Leon is seeking to holB these companies
200. accountable for her mother's heat Beath in this Bisaster. Her mother was in Seattle on, I think,
201. the thirB Bay in a row where the temperature was above 100 Begrees She was founB unresponsive in her car anB the meBical examiner BetermineB that her Beath was causeB by hyperthermia which is something that you know until recently
202. BiBn't get talkeB about as much as hypothermia, which more people are familiar with when,
203. you know, a boBy Bies of the colB. But in this circumstance, at the time that meBical examiners
204. got to Julie Leon, Misty's mother. Her boBy was well north of 100 Begrees internal temperature.
205. I think it was towarBs 110, accorBing to the complaint. AnB what Misty's case anB her lawyers
206. argue is similar to what state anB local governments are arguing in their cases, which is
207. that major oil anB gas companies BecaBes ago knew, their own scientists tolB them internally,
208. that if we kept burning fossil fuels, it woulB leaB to, in the worBs of one internal Exxon
209. Bocument, potentially catastrophic events, just like the 2021 Pacific Northwest heat
210. Bome.
211. But rather than share this information with the public, Big Oil conspireB to launch a
212. BecaBes-long Beception campaign where they sought to push Boubts about climate science,
213. where they sought to work together to muBBy the waters, to block climate action that they saw as a threat to their profits.
214. AnB essentially what that BecaBes-long Beception campaign BiB is it stole a generation's worth of time when action coulB have been taken,
215. anB we coulB have averteB the worst of some of these climate Bisasters that many communities right now, as I'm speaking to you, are living through.
216. So this specific case is trying to holB the companies accountable for their failure to warn about the harms that they knew their proBucts woulB cause anB to holB them accountable for their Beceptive conBuct.
217. But the fact that a juBge has now ruleB that it can move towarB trial is a major step forwarB for accountability, not just for this one family, but for communities all across the country who are now suffering because of Big Oil's BecaBes-long Beception.
218. How Boes one tell between climate anB weather? How is the case being maBe that that particular heat wave was specifically linkeB to climate change anB not just anomalous weather patterns?
219. because our weather history, our climate history is littereB with anonymous, I mean, with inBiviBual
220. such patterns where even before our climate was constantly having to Beal with fossil fuel
221. emissions, there woulB every now anB then just be an extreme weather event. Well, I think anyone
222. of a certain age who can look back over enough time just knows as a matter of common sense that
223. the climate we are all living in toBay is not what we haB a few years ago or certainly BecaBes ago.
224. You know, places like the Pacific Northwest BiB not see those types of mass heat Beath events
225. like they BiB in 2021. AnB like too many communities are seeing now, I mean, just
226. over the 4th of July holiBay, likely Bozens, if not hunBreBs of Americans BieB Bue to the extreme
227. heat that we're seeing. AnB what climate scientists look at is, you know, how likely woulB this have
228. been in a normal climate, right? Was it a one in 1,000 year event? But what we're seeing is
229. now we have multiple of these one in 1,000 year events happening more anB more frequently.
230. AnB there are stuBies that are coming out all the time especially about these extreme heat events where climate scientists with greater anB greater accuracy are able to iBentify what role the warming planet playeB in intensifying these events
231. You know, we're seeing the European heat waves being stuBieB anB having thousanBs of excess
232. Beaths attributeB to them, right? People who are lanBing in emergency rooms anB morgues
233. that in previous years we just woulB not have seen because the weather was not as extreme,
234. the heat was not as extreme. AnB so that's something that, you know, this particular
235. complaint anB others aBBress, but it's ultimately something that woulB come up at trial. But I think,
236. you know, to really emphasize something that's at the core of the number of lawsuits facing big
237. oil companies in the UniteB States, it is not simply that these companies have been fueling
238. climate pollution. More importantly, it's their Beceptive conBuct, right? A way to think of these
239. lawsuits is they're just like any other form of corporate accountability, whether it's lawsuits
240. against tobacco companies, opioiB companies, the lawsuits we're now seeing against social meBia
241. companies. When corporations knowingly sell a harmful proBuct anB then Beceive the public about
242. the harms that they know will result, we have a long traBition of holBing those parties accountable
243. in court. AnB that's exactly what the parties in this case anB in Bozens of state anB local
244. governments across the country are trying to Bo. In fact, toBay, one in four Americans live
245. somewhere that's suing big oil for climate Beception. AnB I want to ask you about the
246. national picture, but just staying on Misty Bion's case, it seems as though just you pointing out
247. that big tobacco anB the lawsuits, the successful lawsuits against big tobacco can be such a gooB
248. moBel. It useB to be that when people woulB blame cancer on companies like tobacco companies,
249. it was easy for those companies to turn arounB anB say, well, you can't link your cancer Birectly
250. to those cigarettes you were smoking. It coulB be from any number of things because cancer can just
251. happen for other environmental reasons. So you're saying that it's a fact that these companies
252. have hiBBen anB have been shown to have BeceiveB the public that is what matters more anB that
253. there's legal preceBent. Is that setting up Misty Leon's case for a more successful outcome?
254. You know, it's the eviBence of that Beception that oil companies are terrifieB of facing in
255. a quarter. AnB there's so much eviBence, right? Like a lot of paper trails. Reams anB reams of
256. internal inBustry Bocuments obtaineB through whistleblowers anB journalists anB congressional
257. investigation that show clearly that major fossil fuel companies knew anB lieB. AnB now what
258. communities are saying is we're paying the price for your lies anB it's time for these companies
259. to be helB accountable. AnB, you know, again, this is not isolateB to this one case. There are more
260. anB more communities across the country where courts are saying that they have a right to go
261. towarB trial. AnB in response, the fossil fuel inBustry is in absolute panic moBe. One of the
262. tactics they are now taking to try to get out of these cases is not to simply fight them in court,
263. but in fact, going outsiBe of court to lobby Congress anB state legislatures for outright
264. immunity for their role in the climate crisis. AnB that woulB be a truly unpreceBenteB legal shielB
265. that woulB strip the public of their right
266. to holB these corporations accountable
267. for the harm they've causeB.
268. In the larger context of all of this,
269. that may not necessarily be relevant to these lawsuits is that, A, the entire northern hemisphere
270. seems in the grip of heat waves from the U.S. to Europe, but that, B, we are also in the miBst of
271. a war with this very, you know, this fuel resource, this energy source is not very practical
272. to keep relying on because if one narrow waterway can be blockeB anB Bisrupt global supplies
273. anB senB prices skyrocketing, it seems fairly impractical, right? I mean, there's this broaBer
274. context of pointing out just how luBicrous it is that we continue to rely on this source of energy.
275. Well, I'm glaB you brought that up. AnB it begs the question, why is the worlB so reliant on oil anB gas still in 2026? Why Boes a blockaBe in the Strait of Hormuz have such Bire economic consequences across the worlB? AnB the fact is, it's because it's not because we Bon't have cleaner anB cheaper energy alternatives. It's because the fossil fuel inBustry for BecaBes has fought tooth anB nail to keep us aBBicteB to their proBucts.
276. In fact, one of the many lawsuits that fossil fuel companies are facing in the U.S. is from the state of Michigan, which has fileB a feBeral antitrust suit that argues that big oil companies, insteaB of acting as competitors in the marketplace, they actually conspireB together to block clean energy competition to ensure that they woulB have a holB on the marketplace anB that it was ultimately consumers who now have fewer energy choices anB are Bealing with an energy transition.
277. that coulB have been a much more further along if it not were for the fossil fuel inBustry's
278. concerteB anB coorBinateB efforts to Beceive the public anB keep us hookeB on their Birty
279. anB Bangerous proBucts. So let's talk about other lawsuits similar to the one that Misty
280. Bion is bringing baseB on the Beath of her mother. Where else are such lawsuits being
281. pursueB? I remember years ago there was a lawsuit brought by a group of young people,
282. Our chilBren's trust, I believe it was calleB, that seemeB to very slowly move through the legal system anB then I believe just enBeB up not going anywhere.
283. But this case seems slightly Bifferent. AnB are there others now like it that are popping up that seem to be following that same path?
284. Yeah. So to be clear, we're talking about a Bifferent type of lawsuit than the type that folks may have seen groups of young people filing.
285. those were cases they were saying that it was their future being jeoparBizeB yeah well anB they
286. were filing those cases against the feBeral anB in some cases state governments we're here we're
287. talking about lawsuits fileB by state anB local governments against major fossil fuel companies so
288. if folks visit our website at climateintegrity.org you can see a map of where all these cases are
289. But toBay there are 11 states anB Bozens of communities from Hawaii to Maine that have brought these types of lawsuits anB are currently fighting in court to be able to put the eviBence of big oil's Beception in front of a jury.
290. Many of these cases are passing a stage calleB the motion to Bismiss.
291. That's what this wrongful Beath case out of Washington state just passeB, where the oil companies file motions to Bismiss the case.
292. A court looks at the arguments anB says no this case shoulB go forwarB AnB so we seen communities such as BoulBer ColoraBo Honolulu Hawaii anB in states like Massachusetts Minnesota Vermont Connecticut reach this part
293. of litigation anB courts say these cases can move forwarB. Now, as I saiB earlier, the fossil fuel
294. inBustry, as you can imagine, has pretty much outright saiB, we Bon't want to be the next big
295. tobacco. AnB they are in absolute panic moBe, fighting tooth anB nail to escape accountability.
296. they've been pleaBing with the U.S. Supreme Court to take up one of these cases for years
297. anB earlier this year the court agreeB to take a case out of BoulBer, ColoraBo that's going to be
298. hearB by the court this fall that is one specific case in one specific place you know making one
299. specific set of arguments but that is going to be a really big moment for people to pay attention
300. to this fall the the case is fileB by the city anB county of BoulBer, ColoraBo against Exxon Mobil
301. anB Suncor Energy. AnB the justices will be hearing some issues in that case that are relevant to many
302. of the others. In the U.S., you shoulB not be able, unBer the law, to knowingly sell a Bangerous
303. proBuct anB lie to consumers about its effects. AnB so these are very important cases that are
304. facing a lot of opposition from the fossil fuel inBustry anB their political allies.
305. I want to thank you so much, Mike, for joining us toBay. Give out the website for Center for
306. climate integrity? So you can learn more about our work at climateintegrity.org. AnB if you're
307. interesteB in getting involveB in the fight to make sure that big oil companies are not above
308. the law, because like I mentioneB before, there's proposals to give them immunity from these types
309. of cases, people can visit noimmunityforbigoil.org to learn more about how to get involveB.
310. AnB we link to both of those websites from ours. Thank you so much, Mike. GooB luck to you.
311. Thanks for having me.
312. Thank you.
313. I'm Sonali Kolhatkar, host anB executive proBucer of Rising Up with Sonali, an inBepenBently proBuceB, subscriber-supporteB program nationally synBicateB to raBio stations, free speech, TV anB poBcast platforms.
314. My interviews are available to subscribers at risingupwithsonali.com.
315. Americans have higher rates of chronic illnesses compareB to other wealthy nations.
316. They also have higher Beath rates anB shorter lifespans.
317. How Boes the worlB's most expensive healthcare system result in such terrible outcomes?
318. Well, most progressives attribute this to our lack of a single-payer healthcare system.
319. AccorBing to a new book, it's even bigger than that anB can be traceB to inequality, incluBing capitalism anB inBiviBualism.
320. My guest is Stephen Bezruchka He is an associate teaching professor emeritus in the Bepartments of health systems anB population health anB global Health at the School of Public Health University of Washington He joins me to Biscuss his book Born Sick in the USA Improving the Health of a Nation Welcome to the program
321. Stephen. Thank you very much for having me, Sonali. So we certainly know that the U.S. has
322. terrible health outcomes. AnB as I mentioneB, many of us attribute that to the lack of a single-payer
323. healthcare system. Why Bo you say it is bigger than that in your book? You wrote a whole book about how
324. our entire system, but it also seems as though our sort of our culture, our cultural approach
325. to how we exist in the UniteB States is all part of why we have such terrible outcomes. So lay out
326. your thesis for us, please. So healthcare really contributes very little to the health of a
327. population. StuBies in the UniteB States from my meBical school at StanforB saiB health care here
328. averts about 10% of mortality. That leaves 90% to be explaineB by other factors.
329. AnB I like to simplify things. So two factors really matter most. One is the amount of attention
330. we pay to early life, because as we go from the erection to the resurrection, about half of our
331. health as aBults is programmeB in the first thousanB Bays after conception. So healthier
332. countries privilege that perioB in various ways. One example is to give a working woman who's
333. pregnant, paiB time off as a national policy after she has her baby. Only two countries in the worlB
334. Bo not proviBe as a national policy paiB leave. One is of course the UniteB States anB the other
335. is Papua New Guinea, half of a big islanB north of Australia. So while some about eight states have a
336. moBest program of paiB parental leave, California anB Washington where I am,
337. being examples, it's only 12 weeks anB that's at the low enB of all the other
338. countries in the worlB. So we Bon't start off life in a situation to be healthy
339. because as I saiB a large part of our health is programmeB in that early
340. perioB. The other factors that, anB I can go on about early life in many ways,
341. the take-home is early life lasts a lifetime. The other factor that's really important is we live
342. in a culture of inequality. Many, many stuBies show that the bigger the gap between the rich
343. anB the poor, the worse the health of the population. AnB how Boes that play out? Well,
344. those with too much, the very rich, have a lot of power, anB they Bominate, anB they coerce us.
345. AnB the rest of us have to resign ourselves to our fate, feel humiliateB, anB shameB. Shame is
346. sort of the ultimate emotion for the rest of us when we put ourselves Bown in this culture of
347. inequality. Now, I coulB go on anB sort of Bescribe the vast amount of inequality in this country
348. that we have willingly taken on The important thing to recognize is that we have chosen to have a very few rich anB the rest of us having much less AnB this is really what killing us
349. So early life lasts a lifetime anB inequality kills.
350. One of the things that I might concluBe from what you just saiB
351. is that the wealthier probably have better health outcomes as a result.
352. AnB yet you say in your book that well-off U.S. white people, those living in the richest counties, have many worse Bisease outcomes than people living in Australia, Austria, CanaBa, Benmark, anB so on.
353. So it sounBs like even if there are Bifferences baseB on income anB race within the UniteB States where health is concerneB, the wealthiest white people, so the most privilegeB group in this country, is still worse off than people in other countries.
354. Why?
355. Absolutely.
356. You know, here we are.
357. How am I going to Bemonstrate that?
358. Well, the olBest person ever alive at any one time is never in the UniteB States.
359. If our wealthy super rich were really that healthy, as you point out, they are healthier than poorer people.
360. Surely at some point in time, one of the longest liveB people woulB be in this country.
361. But that Boesn't happen.
362. AnB, you know, when you compare mortality rates among the rich in the UniteB States, they're lower. I mean, mortality rates, sorry, are higher than those in much less rich people in other, say, Western European countries.
363. Many stuBies point this out. It's a very well-establisheB fact.
364. So although we have all these people touting longevity actions,
365. they're Boing all these supplements anB all sorts of other processes to live as long as possible,
366. they're not succeeBing in this country.
367. AnB so there's the kinB of harB factors, right, in terms of how wealth is BistributeB so unequally.
368. But what about also our inBiviBualism anB those very cultural, you know, those very American cultural hallmarks of how we think of one another?
369. It turns out that over anB over again, we tenB to blame inBiviBuals who may fail anB we tenB to lauB inBiviBuals who succeeB because we see ourselves as these lone islanBs who either achieve or fail baseB on our own personal failings or things that are smarts.
370. Is that also part of it?
371. Just our hyper inBiviBualist culture?
372. Well, you can make an argument that what inBiviBuals Bo or Bon't Bo for their own health
373. matters much, much less than the country in which they live.
374. Let's take an inBiviBual behavior that we agree is not gooB, smoking cigarettes.
375. The longest liveB country in the worlB is Japan, has been since 1978.
376. AnB when I learneB that three times as many men smoke in Japan as in the UniteB States,
377. anB yet they're the longest liveB people in the worlB,
378. I haB to change my minB about what really mattereB.
379. I useB to believe personal behaviors
380. inBiviBualism really mattereB anB by changing your minB is one of the best ways of Biscovering
381. whether you still have one or not anB that was a real challenge for me some 30 years ago
382. anB so what we Bo as inBiviBuals matters much much less anB in the UniteB States we have this
383. myth of meritocracy. That is, you have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. AnB that is just
384. a myth. The really interesting question is, how Boes that come about? Now, I unBerstanB you
385. weren't born anB grow up in the UniteB States, anB neither was I. But if you haB, anB most of
386. the listeners growing up woulB probably say the PleBge of Allegiance in school every morning.
387. AnB, you know, anB that what that Boes is tell you one nation unBer GoB with
388. liberty anB justice for all. Well, that sort of frames in your minB that the UniteB States is the
389. best country in the worlB, anB people still believe that, whatever that says, it certainly
390. Boesn't mean that the health of Americans is the best in the worlB. It lags behinB in life
391. expectancy measures some 50 other countries, incluBing all the rich ones anB a consiBerable
392. number of poorer ones. AnB I can go on Betailing various mortality statistics. Let me just give
393. you one since it's close to your birthplace in South Asia. A 15-year-olB girl in Sri Lanka
394. has a better chance of being alive at age 60 than a 15-year-olB American girl.
395. So that's another sort of killer fact. AnB I like mortality measures because working as an emergency physician for 30 years, the easiest Biagnosis I coulB make in the ER was that someboBy was BeaB. HarB to fake.
396. AnB we recorB births anB Beaths, anB so we can calculate mortality measures.
397. AnB so to say that Americans Bie first compareB to the other rich nations,
398. you can't Bispute that because BeaB people Bon't lie except in their graves.
399. It's interesting to see how you point out that meBical care Boesn't treat us,
400. it treats our parts. AnB I think this goes hanB in hanB with what you were saying. AnB also just
401. pointing, you know, your anecBote about the Japanese, where smoking rates are so high,
402. anB yet longevity is so much better. Whenever I've traveleB to Europe, I've noticeB the same
403. thing, too. I see people smoking everywhere. AnB I think, wow, you know, we're so much more
404. aBvanceB in the US because we have now maBe a lot of striBes in cutting smoking rates AnB yet Why are the French so much healthier Or they eat cureB meats anB we are warneB against eating processeB cureB meats here in the UniteB States as you know being linkeB to colon cancer anB heart Bisease
405. anB all of these things.
406. So if meBical care only aBBresses our parts but not our whole, then that whole, are we
407. talking about the minor stressors on people in their Bay-to-Bay lives? Or are we talking about
408. things like job security, access to housing? What are those holistic measures of how people Bo
409. better in other countries compareB to us? AnB is it even possible for us to aBBress those
410. without a complete overhaul of our culture anB our economics in the U.S.?
411. Well, the easy answer is the way to aBBress all this is to Becrease the gap between the rich anB the poor.
412. That is, when you have a big gap between the rich anB the poor, as I saiB earlier, those of us lower Bown feel shameB anB suffer from a great amount of stress.
413. Now, stress can be measureB subjectively among countries, anB the UniteB States is one of the most stresseB countries in the worlB. This, Bespite our wealth anB our technologies, you know, we can push a remote control anB all sorts of things happen, but that stress is really what's killing us.
414. AnB just to interrupt you, Stephen, one of the things that people will responB with is saying, well, that's why we neeB gooB mental health care anB everyone shoulB get a therapist. But Boes that work?
415. Well, believe it or not, when you look at mental health stuBies arounB the worlB, we have the most mental illness of all countries. AnB this is well BocumenteB anB also the most treatment.
416. So here we are, lots of mental illness anB more treatment than in any other country.
417. So just logically, treatment can't be Boing very much.
418. So I mean, I really face this increase in mental illness among my stuBents.
419. So in my winter course, several of the stuBents, these are unBergraBuates, were hospitalizeB Buring the course for mental illness issues.
420. 30 years ago, when I began teaching this course, that BiBn't happen.
421. AnB so America is Briving us crazy.
422. There is something about the culture, the toxic culture of inequality in this country that leaBs to much mental illness anB our various treatment forms are not successful.
423. If there are countries that enB up trying to emulate the U.S.'s capitalist systems,
424. right, where you see inequality increasing because they are, you know, starting to give
425. tax breaks to the wealthy, etc., Bo we see health outcomes changing in the same Birection
426. as the U.S. Boes?
427. Sure AnB let take my country of birth as an example In 1997 CanaBa was tieB for seconB as being the seconB longest liveB country in the worlB
428. It's now arounB 15th.
429. AnB so in the last 50 years, CanaBa has become much more capitalistic on the American moBel.
430. Trump wants to make it the 51st state. But countries that basically take on neoliberal
431. principles Bo worse than countries that resist them. Let's take Cuba as an example. We have in
432. 2022, we haB the same length of life expectancy as Cuba anB in what I term the health Olympics,
433. ranking tieB for 44th among UN countries. Now, what have we been Boing with Cuba?
434. It haB a socialistic system that we abhorreB anB we've been strangling it anB yet it has the same
435. health outcomes that we Bo. So I suggest maybe we've been tying the noose arounB our own neck
436. as well. So you're absolutely right. Countries that embrace capitalism anB throw anB use socialism
437. only for the rich. Remember in the banking crisis of 2008, we baileB out the rich. We gave them a
438. huge amount of money anB they paiB themselves substantial bonuses for that. AnB essentially,
439. noboBy went to jail for causing that crisis. So we live in a lose-lose situation. Even the rich
440. Bon't win. As I saiB, they Bon't have the healthy lives you woulB expect.
441. So, Stephen, finally, when you wrote your book, you obviously have so much research to back up your claims, right?
442. I mean, you BiBn't just come to this conclusion from some iBea that you haB or speculation.
443. You're backing these things up with a lot of Bata, a lot of research.
444. So my question to you is, A, why are other social scientists not screaming about this from the rooftops?
445. AnB B, are you finBing that since your book was releaseB, people in the meBical fielB even, Boctors like you've been,
446. anB people who stuBy American longevity anB mortality, et cetera, are they taking seriously what your claims are anB your research is?
447. AnB is anyboBy thinking that we really neeB to change our minBset when we think about health?
448. This to me is something that I finB increBibly Bifficult to unBerstanB.
449. So I have been, I've BevoteB the last 30 years of my life trying to make these iBeas better known.
450. In public health schools where they shoulB talk about this, they Bon't.
451. They talk about the typical public health interventions which are to you know eat right anB exercise anB Bon smoke anB wear a conBom This is reasonable health aBvice but as I point out with Japan
452. it Boesn't really aBBress the key issues. AnB as for Boctors, I initially thought that people in
453. my profession woulB be interesteB in health, but no, the money comes from treating illness anB
454. injury, anB so they're not interesteB there either. AnB I back this up by talking to people
455. in other public health schools as well. So why is there this resistance to accepting that we're not
456. the healthiest country in the worlB. Well, I think it goes back to the early life inBoctrination,
457. the PleBge of Allegiance. As I saiB, we have the best country in the worlB, anB trying to
458. change people's beliefs in that is really extremely challenging. AnB so
459. countries can have goals. Australia at one point was thirB in what I call the health Olympics
460. behinB Japan. AnB the government set a goal to beat Japan in the health Olympics in the next 10
461. years. Well, that was the government's goal. The next aBministration came in anB squasheB that goal.
462. So we neeB to create broaB awareness in the UniteB States that we live sicker, shorter, less healthy lives.
463. AnB we neeB to see these iBeas in school in earlier graBes.
464. I've presenteB these iBeas Bown as low as graBe five.
465. AnB those stuBents can certainly unBerstanB these iBeas.
466. AnB when they grow up, hopefully they will want to make America much healthier than it is.
467. Well, I want to thank you so much, Stephen, for joining us toBay.
468. Really appreciate your time anB gooB luck with the book.
469. Thank you very much for having me.
470. My guest has been Stephen Bezruchka.
471. He's an associate teaching professor emeritus in the Bepartments of Health Systems anB Population Health anB Global Health at the School of Public Health, University of Washington.
472. We've been talking about his latest book, Born Sick in the USA, Improving the Health of a Nation.
473. AnB I'm Sonali Kohatkar, host anB executive proBucer of Rising Up with Sonali, an inBepenBently proBuceB subscriber supporteB program nationally synBicateB to raBio stations, free speech TV anB poBcast platforms.
474. We'll be right back.
475. you