LA Review Of Books

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1. Hi, this is Curt Elling.
2. You're listening to KPFK, 90.7 FM Los Angeles, 98.7 FM Santa Barbara, and on the World Wide Web at kpfk.org.
3. Nighttown, lady bright in the arms of night.
4. Hello, and welcome to the LARP Radio Hour, brought to you by Reader Supported LA Review of Books.
5. I'm your host, Kate Wolt, and I'm joined by my two co-hosts, LARP's Editor-in-Chief, Medea Ocher, and Eric Newman.
6. Hi, Kate.
7. Hey, Kate.
8. Hi, you guys.
9. And this week, we have a special chat show on the subject of aging.
10. Vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom.
11. I thought so much about this one.
12. Man, oh, man.
13. I've spent the last four years.
14. I think ever since I entered the 40s, I've been thinking nonstop about getting older and aging.
15. And I've heard that's very common among people in their 40s.
16. Yes.
17. I know that one of us here has not yet gone over the hill, but imminently will.
18. It's imminent.
19. And I'm thinking about it.
20. I think about it all the time.
21. I think there's a question of personal aging, which everyone approaches differently and which is just a rite of passage.
22. And of course, there are many approaches to that. But then something also that we could address here, and this is a very large sociological issue and problem, is the aging population.
23. Yes.
24. And the growing numbers of old people versus the shrinking numbers of young people in the United States and a lot of other Western countries. So that is the kind of fork that we will tread today in our conversation.
25. But first, I want to start off by asking both of you, do you feel like there is something
26. different between growing old and aging or growing older?
27. Are you aware of any different ways that you think about those two phenomena?
28. Or are they basically the same to you?
29. Because I think that I separate them in my mind.
30. Yeah, I would say that growing older is an almost, to me, a kind of biological, like
31. It's a kind of fact that is not necessarily positive or negative, because I think when we talk about growing older, we could mean having more experience, having more confidence, like all of those kind of things.
32. I do think that when we talk about aging, that is almost universally negative, because aging is usually a word that we use to describe reduced capacity or deterioration, right?
33. So aging infrastructure, for example, is the same as aging bodies.
34. We're talking about bodies that are breaking down.
35. You can't run as fast as you used to be able to.
36. You can't lose weight as quickly as you used to or as easily as you used to.
37. And I agree with you, Kate.
38. I think they are very different, not only in how they kind of circulate in our public
39. discourse, but also the way that we think about them internally.
40. I don't think of them as so different.
41. I think of them both as kind of like euphemisms that people use, potentially like an aging
42. actress.
43. That is never said in a positive way.
44. I just want to say,
45. right?
46. No,
47. totally.
48. That like used instead of like an old actress Um so no I don think of them as that I don think of them as that different honestly
49. Yeah, because sometimes when I hang out with kids
50. and there's this excitement for getting older
51. that they can't wait for their next birthday.
52. It's like, yay, I'm getting older.
53. It's so awesome.
54. And I, of course, don't feel the same.
55. I'm not like looking forward to getting older because there's a lot of fear related to it.
56. And I think in the aging factor that sometimes, you know, we talk about it like only in aesthetic terms, but actually what you're really seeing when you see those wrinkles is a form of decay that you are actually like you're watching in real time your body putrefy and move closer to death.
57. And that's really, really freaky when you see it like that.
58. But it's also aging and getting older is something that everyone is experiencing at the exact same time.
59. We're all getting older.
60. Although, you know, I know in a lot of longevity literature, they talk about these like cliffs that you jump off with aging.
61. 44 being one of the first ages where it's like everything catches up to you all at once and you dip many points below a certain standard level.
62. And that's been researched.
63. And 60 is another one.
64. But I do experience a lot more kind of fulfillment, happiness, you know, confidence.
65. Yes.
66. Kind of like a spiritual understanding even now that I did not have when I was younger.
67. And I think that the aesthetic differences, you know, which are major.
68. But when I was young, I never looked at my skin and thought, God, my skin looks awesome.
69. Some of the ways we decay don't really come into view until they're actually happening or like until we notice the difference.
70. So like when they say, you know, youth is wasted on the young, I think that is true.
71. I don't mean that it's actually wasted.
72. It's that you're not aware of what your body is like when you're young until you're old.
73. And then you remember, oh, I used to be able to do this or I did.
74. I used to not have this like crepey skin on my arm.
75. And it's really freaking me out to see because there's something very uncanny about watching myself decay in real time.
76. Well, but I think the bigger lesson there, and it's actually kind of tragic, is because I feel exactly the same way that you do, Kate.
77. I did use enough sunscreen, by the way, because I've been very fair complected my entire life that I actually don't have a lot of face wrinkles, even though I'm.
78. Whoop-de-doo.
79. It's also because you're a man and you have thicker skin.
80. Okay.
81. All right, fine. Our overall kind of theme, I think, throughout this entire conversation is the way that capitalism kind of warps and distorts our sense of self. Because I think there's a way in which, yes, absolutely. In my 20s, did I look at myself and be like, oh, my God, you've got this full head of beautiful hair, your skin is great. Like, you know, you've got a great figure, like all that kind of stuff. No, I was like, oh, you're not muscly enough. You're not this, you're not that.
82. And I guess we should say that we're a gay man and two women.
83. This might be different for a straight man.
84. But I think that you spend your 20s and your teens kind of wanting to be this other thing,
85. this better thing that you will be when you're older.
86. And then by the time you hit your 30s, you're like, oh, my God, where did my 20s go?
87. And then when you get to like your 40s, you suddenly have this different sense of what
88. it means to get older every year.
89. Okay, this is like a very brief story, but this was like maybe 12 years ago or something.
90. I was at a conference and I was having coffee with someone and a prominent fellow male editor came up and asked the person I was having coffee with whether he was appreciating me whether he was appreciating how I looked the earrings that I had on the dress I had on
91. And I remember being like so struck by it because the language was so explicit.
92. It was so explicit about the kind of value system that was being superimposed on the interaction there.
93. He was there as the appreciator and that my value could either accrue in terms of appreciation or decrease.
94. decrease. This is kind of besides the point, but were you creeped out when this prominent editor
95. came over and basically told the other editor, hey, you better be like recognizing the object
96. that this woman is and treating her as such. Don't talk to her like she's just a normal
97. editor. Look at her for the hot young thing she is or else. I was, I mean, I was creeped out,
98. but it was like, it felt more like almost like sociologically interesting. Like I was like,
99. how strange to like feel compelled to do that. Anyway, it has always made me think about like
100. the ways in which our values appreciate or depreciate with time. Does age make me appreciated
101. less? Or could I be valued more, but maybe for other things? Tie in between like aging looks
102. and capitalism and the ways in which things appreciate and value or depreciate in value.
103. and how our bodies are just kind of a part of that system.
104. And I'm very aware of the narrative around older women,
105. like just people telling me often and hearing people say,
106. I've become invisible.
107. You know, a lot of it I do think is this like animal kingdom thing going on
108. in one way that is really about sexual desirability.
109. But then, you know, like people in their 20s,
110. now you look at them and you feel sorry for them
111. because their job prospects are worse than ever.
112. The possibility that they would own a home is worse than ever.
113. They actually live these lives that are haunted by climate change.
114. So their possibilities for the future seem worse than ever.
115. We should feel some sense of empathy and sympathy for the fact that they have so much less power
116. than even, you know, we all did in our 20s, 20 less years ago, possibly, I would say.
117. I actually did read, I read something today that said that Gen Z makes more money now than millennials did at this point in their careers.
118. Really?
119. It's about 20% more.
120. Really?
121. Yes.
122. That's probably true, but I think it goes a lot less far.
123. I will say, thinking about what Kate was saying, I know that, Kate, you're talking about this from a female perspective, but I think one of the interesting things, depressing maybe, over the last, let's say, like 10 to 15 years is the way in which those same standards have now been applied to and even internalized by young men in a world where, and I'm not the first person to observe this, where social mobility is not possible.
124. The last kind of saleable asset you have is your body and your looks, which have been commodified now, I think, for men, perhaps not as much as it is for women. But I think it's really approaching parity in a way that is a kind of equality, but it's an equality I think nobody wants.
125. Like we don all want to be reduced to the value of our bodies because those things are not durable You know they not it doesn last The conversation about looks maxing taking peptides and that also gets us back into this capitalist loop where you chasing these kind of either
126. crackpot snake oil that you see on social media about oh take this thing with like snail cream
127. or whatever and it's going to make you look so great and if you buy all these lotions and potions
128. you'll never have a wrinkle. Well, at a certain point, like you will literally spend forever
129. chasing that dream, you know, and that's part of what keeps you on the hamster wheel. I think
130. I have a friend who is like a health guru. He's a Chinese medicine doctor, but then he also
131. trains a lot of people. And we were talking about GLP ones. And he was telling me like the new
132. frontier is this thing called the Yamanaka factor. He said that is going to change everything.
133. And there was an article about it in the Times recently. This is my very uninformed scientific
134. description, but it's like a little thing that they'll be able to put in your eyes. Let's say
135. you have bad eyesight. You'll be able to put these drops in your eye and it will go into the cells
136. and rejuvenate the cells and you will have sight again.
137. Is this like NAD plus?
138. Oh no, it's like, no, it's way beyond NAD.
139. Okay.
140. In longevity research,
141. this is the rejuvenation section of longevity research.
142. And this is like, it could reverse aging basically.
143. I did notice that Peter Thiel, Elon Musk,
144. all these normal suspects are putting tons and tons
145. of money into biotech.
146. And for a long time,
147. this has been kind of a strain of Silicon Valley,
148. which is like a transhumanism, not biohacking, not wanting to die, not like that you would be
149. so wealthy that you wouldn't even have to have this terrible indignity of death that you could
150. transcend even that as you could transcend the earth, you know, in your spaceship and you could
151. transcend like normal city streets in your helicopter. However, these guys get around
152. and you're flying a Tesla.
153. This is all just part of the same kind of denial of death
154. that haunts these mostly men
155. and is completely transformed our world.
156. At the same time, who wouldn't want to have some little,
157. like, you know, vial that I could put on my skin
158. and suddenly, like, I have the skin of a 20-year-old
159. or I have 20-20 eyesight again.
160. I recently got this pitch for this novel that's out
161. that I was actually, it didn't sound like my kind of book until it was like the 70-year-old moves
162. into a retirement community and then she discovers she's pregnant. And I thought, oh my God, this
163. sounds like an amazing premise. But yes, even like your reproductive organs possibly that you could
164. reverse time and have baby reproductive organs and at 60 have that baby you always wanted without
165. IVF. I mean, it's the implications for what this could do. And this was partly in the Times article.
166. There's a lot of promise.
167. And from my friend saying, this is going to change everything.
168. But a thousand ethical questions come from that, you know?
169. What do you guys think?
170. Would you take some Yamanaka vial if you could?
171. Yeah, for sure.
172. But the question that I'm always left with with things like that is like, for what?
173. What would I gain?
174. If it were about seeing better, that seems great.
175. Like I would prefer not to use contacts and or glasses.
176. And so like I've always wondered for people like the Elon Musks of the world who are so interested in colonizing other planets and transcending interplanetary.
177. transcending death. I understand the impulse to transcend death. I, because the fear of it and
178. the fear of the unknown is obviously it's so intense. It's like so ancient. Well, who wouldn't
179. put all of their human energy into, into figuring out some, some way to escape it.
180. Why though transcend life on earth? Like what for, what is Mars for? But then also like,
181. what is eternal life for? What, so that, you know, that man who, whose name I never remember,
182. but who's like taking the blood of his child and drinking it. Oh, uh, Brian, uh, Brian Johnson.
183. Um, what is it for? The Brian Johnson thing always strikes me as like optimizing, optimizing,
184. optimizing, but it, what, like what kind of a life is that? Like, sure. Okay. Right. I can run a
185. marathon when I'm 50 or 60. But is that the kind of thing I actually want to do when I'm 50 or 60?
186. And is the constant maintenance, is that worth it in the end? Are we running to Mars is another
187. great example. Mars is ugly. It's ugly. Why do you want to live in space? It's hideous. Is that
188. where you want to live? And so it feels like, again, these kind of people like Elon Musk and
189. like others that want to accrete more and more for themselves. It's a fundamental social sickness
190. that they're like the epitome of. And at the end of that, you may have extended your life,
191. but you're living what you're ruling over a kingdom of bones. Like, is that what you actually
192. want? Like, is that a life? No, I don't. I mean, I, of course now as a mid forties gal, you know,
193. I think there is something to maintenance and it's a chore and it's really annoying,
194. but you know, you think of it like, okay, well, what's the payoff? Like if I do this stretch
195. three times a day on my ankle, I won't sprain my ankle. And if I don't sprain my ankle,
196. I can walk and dance and pick up my kid and run and do all this stuff I like and be active. And
197. if I'm active, I won't get dementia and I won't get heart disease. Like you have to start making
198. these or floss, you know, I floss, I like do weird face masks, you know, yes, it can feel just like
199. an endless list of maintenance. Anyhow, I want to get into more of the sociological thing of
200. longevity as people do live longer, because really the population in the US at least is becoming
201. really lopsided. And it used to be that there were like a ton of young people and then slowly,
202. slowly the pyramid got sparser at top, but now it's really becoming the opposite. And there are
203. soon to be, or already are in the U.S., probably more old people than young people. And the scale
204. of power in our government is also really focused on the old, or it's the old who have power. We
205. have the oldest, I think he's the oldest living president is Donald Trump, or he will be by the
206. time he leaves office and he's, you know, second, we had old sleepy Joe before that. And, you know,
207. it's like these people who don't have investment, you know, we all should be invested in the future,
208. but it seems often that you have to be younger and have actually personal investment in it to care.
209. And I actually did just read this article in the New Yorker where it was saying that
210. when they ask older voters what the most important issue to them or the greatest threat to the U.S.
211. is they say terrorism But when they ask younger voters they say climate change So that was pretty stunning to me I mean the flip that you talking about where there and it population replacement right So
212. fertility rates, this is most pronounced in Japan, where I believe a third of the population is over
213. the age of 60 or something like that. And in the US, I believe it's about a fifth of the population.
214. In part, that is due to the fact that boomers are all now over 60, I think, and that is a historically humongous cohort of people.
215. So that's part of it. But I also think that it gets back to what you were saying at the very beginning, Kate, about younger people, by which you didn't mean your adorable little son who can still see like, oh, my God, every year is like an exciting adventure.
216. Sure. But if you're in your 20s, I think every year looks like one more like 365 day experience in hell, you know, and in a world that's getting darker and darker and darker. And I mean, I will be honest with you. I know both of you guys have children. I have thought about this. You know, I didn't naturally necessarily want to have children. But even when I would think about it, I was like, what kind of world are we like birthing people into?
217. and that is not the kind of thinking that helps to sustain a society to be clear like we do need
218. children but i think that's what a lot of people are facing and it's exacerbated by the fact that
219. we see boomers as kind of this big bad who are sitting on top of all kinds of property hoarding
220. all kinds of capital staying longer and longer in the workplace which means that there's less and
221. less opportunities for people that are younger to get in and that's true yeah and it is true but
222. What I'm saying is that I think sometimes we millennials in particular kind of see that as, well, that's the entire problem.
223. If we just got rid of all these geriatrics in government and in business, we would actually have the chance that's been denied us, what, three times in separate recessions to actually thrive and like feel stable.
224. But, you know, whether or not that's entirely true or would be the solution, who knows?
225. But I think it gets into this question that you're teeing up for us, Kate, about what are the ethics of increasing our age?
226. The truth is, and I feel this very intensely myself right now, my parents are both in their early 70s.
227. And obviously, I know that we didn't used to have people that lasted that long.
228. But now people are living longer.
229. I clearly want them to live as long as I can possibly have them.
230. But it does cause these problems of like, how do we keep reproducing society?
231. Of course, and it occurs to me that when we're talking about this, people putting billions of dollars into biotech, they're not putting that money into education.
232. You know, they're not putting that money into the welfare of young people.
233. We're betting a lot on getting older.
234. I don't think we are investing in getting in being younger.
235. Yeah.
236. Medea, what do you think?
237. Yeah. I mean, I think my biggest concern with the aging of an entire population is that the risk of a more and more conservative government and a more and more conservative way of living becomes higher and higher and becomes much more attractive. And I think I'm not sure how statistically true that is, but I think.
238. No, well, I mean, that was in the Joshua Rothman article I read in The New Yorker was saying, yes, statistically, people tend to become more conservative as they age.
239. And that, I think, is really concerning.
240. I agree with you Eric Like it wrongheaded to think that the main problem here is that there a generation that is unwilling to get out of the way or that is unwilling to move on
241. I think that assumes that the infrastructure in which we all live is functional and that if they do get out of the way, we all stand to benefit from the kind of infrastructure and society and social structure that has been built.
242. And I think that in and of itself is like under question.
243. The entire thing is not worthy of like just like total collapse.
244. Well, right. Social Security will run out at some point.
245. There's not people can't be assured that their money will even go as far.
246. It's not very much money to begin with.
247. Health care costs exorbitant amounts.
248. And so you're going to need something like that Yamanaka factor.
249. Yeah.
250. Because if you can afford it because you're not going to be able to afford going to the doctor,
251. You know, it's like I think the kind of logistical issues with such an elderly population does become people needing care and not being able to get it, people needing places to live and not finding them.
252. You know, it's like you judge a society by how it treats its very old and its very young.
253. And I don't think the U.S. would fare very well in either case.
254. It's most vulnerable.
255. And those are the.
256. Something that could be fixed if we taxed billionaires and now trillionaires.
257. at the rate that they used to be taxed.
258. We would need a fundamentally radical change
259. in society and the economy
260. in order to really support people.
261. And I think it also then shows you the ridiculous,
262. it makes all these things we were talking about earlier,
263. like, yeah, keep your looks as long as you can,
264. but you're not going to have a place to live.
265. And you're not going to be able to,
266. I've written about the kind of demands of elder care,
267. And it's no joke.
268. If you don't have money, it can really take over your whole life.
269. And you could be making decisions about your freedom versus like your parents' comfort.
270. That's a really hard place to be.
271. So I think it's just it's kind of a problem that is underestimating.
272. And of course, you know, I don't under this administration that doesn't even want to,
273. you know, say the earth is round.
274. I don't have a huge hope that anything will be fixed.
275. but it is something to think about for the future. And it is, I feel like the, all the kind of like,
276. just humiliations of old age, when you are thinking about kind of like what's just and
277. equitable, it helps them go down a little bit easier. If you were thinking about, okay, like,
278. I'm sadly realizing that life is short, you know, now. I didn't know it when I had every possibility.
279. I'm seeing the contours of life as I get old.
280. You know, I think I thought this quote was different,
281. but I always think about it's attributed to Kafka.
282. The meaning of life is that it stops.
283. I thought it was that it ends.
284. But, you know, I think about that a lot now.
285. I don't think I thought about it so much before.
286. It's like the shape of one's life is a beautiful thing.
287. And if life just went on and on, it would have no shape.
288. And when you can start thinking about the fact of the shape,
289. that end point, it can actually be enriching and it can be really freeing as much as it's also very
290. sad and depressing. All right. So I want to propose as a lightning round, a kind of macabre
291. question, but what do you guys think is a good age to die? So I think 85 or 90. And the reason
292. I would say this is because I think by that point you lived a very full life and it possible especially with modern medicine that you will have not quite gotten to where you so debilitated that you basically just like a
293. vegetable in a chair. You're going out on a high note. You have all your faculties,
294. hopefully. I think that is like a good time to kind of wrap it up.
295. I think this is a good time to wrap it up.
296. How old was Frederick Weissman, the filmmaker, when he died?
297. 90?
298. Or 95 even, maybe.
299. Maybe older.
300. I think he was around 95.
301. Yeah, but I know that he was making films right up until the end of his life.
302. I believe Sonny Rollins just died recently.
303. He was 95.
304. Hockney died recently.
305. He was, I think, about to turn either 88 or 89.
306. So I agree that I'm looking at the 90 mark as like, especially if you could still be
307. working and making work, you know, not like creatively, if you could still be, you're not
308. like sucking up all those young people's resources, but if you could be having a create still
309. creatively fulfilling life, I can't, I just can't even imagine what it would be like to, you know,
310. write a book or make a film, um, at that age. And maybe it wouldn't even feel as kind of monumental
311. as I think, because time does go by so quickly, but it seems really beautiful. And I think that
312. That would be a great age to live to, 90.
313. Yeah.
314. Zia?
315. I think this question really depends on, like, the state of one's life and one's abilities.
316. But I guess you guys are saying, like, if everything is functioning normally, then I would just, like, round up to 100.
317. I might as well just, like, do a century, see it through.
318. Yeah, I think a century seems good because then you've got, like, this, like, it's kind of neat.
319. That's beautiful.
320. Wait, but wouldn't you worry about like all of your friends being dead?
321. I think that's more what I worry about in terms of the aging.
322. Like I don't want to be by myself without all the people that I grew up with and gave
323. my life meaning.
324. Being ready to go seems like the best to me.
325. When you stuck around a little too long at the party, you know, you're like, okay, I
326. really am ready now.
327. That's who wouldn't want to be ready.
328. I'd rather that than the opposite.
329. Ultimately, I'd rather I'm just going to live forever.
330. You'll live forever in all our hearts, Medea.
331. Thank you so much.
332. Well, what a great life-affirming conversation, you two.
333. And that was our chat on aging.
334. Thank you so much for listening to the LARP Radio Hour.
335. Thanks, guys.
336. The producers of the LARP Radio Hour are Medea Ocher, Kate Wolfe, Eric Newman, and Mary Knopf
337. and Jonathan Shiflett, who also mixed and edited our show.
338. Our founding executive producer is Alan Minsky.
339. Our intro music was written and performed by Imogen Teasley-Blotton.
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