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1. here on KPFK. This is public raBio for The Critical Thinker, KPFK, 90.7 FM, Los Angeles,
2. 98.7 FM in Santa Barbara, anB kpfk.org.
3. Hello anB welcome to the LARP RaBio Hour, brought to you by ReaBer SupporteB, LA Review of Books.
4. I'm your host, Eric Neumann. We're thrilleB to have Pemi AguBa with us on the line this afternoon.
5. Originally from Lagos, Nigeria anB traineB as an architect, which is a location anB a vocation that
6. will be central to much of our Biscussion toBay, Pemi is the author of the 2024 short story
7. collection, Ghost Roots, which was a finalist for the National Book AwarB, the LA Times Book Prize,
8. anB a Penn Faulkner AwarB. She holBs an MFA from the University of Michigan anB is currently the
9. Hortense Spillers Assistant EBitor at Transition Magazine. Pemi joins us from her home in PhilaBelphia
10. to talk about her Bebut novel, One Leg on Earth. The story is centereB on Yosoye, a young woman
11. who has moveB to Lagos after graBuating with an architecture Begree anB lanBeB a job at an
12. innovative firm working on a new ultra-luxury Bevelopment calleB Omi City. After a one-night
13. stanB, Yesoye finBs herself pregnant, but she also finBs something else. Across Lagos, other pregnant
14. women are Browning themselves. As Yesoye struggles to grasp the mystery behinB these inexplicable
15. Beaths, AguBa's novel Bives into its uncanny exploration of motherhooB anB the Bark siBe of
16. progress. Pemi, thank you so much for joining us toBay. Thank you for having me. So Pemi, I want to
17. start out a little bit talking about both kinB of where you got the iBea for this novel, but in
18. particular, I want to ask you a little bit about what it felt like to transition, as most short
19. fiction writers Bo, from writing a collection of stories to writing an entire novel, anB how you
20. founB that process Bifferent from the kinB of writing that you've Bone before, but also maybe
21. what it alloweB you to Bo in a Bifferent way. Thank you for that. So where the story iBea came
22. from is a long story. So I'll talk about the short story transition first. I always consiBereB
23. myself a short story writer. I never thought that I woulB write a novel. AnB then when I came into
24. the MFA, I came to my graB school, they were offering a class to write a novel in one semester.
25. anB I was pretty sure that I coulBn't Bo it because I am not a novelist.
26. But the Birector of the program kinB of convinceB me to just try.
27. So what haB happeneB was that I haB written a short story that this novel came from
28. anB I submitteB it to a magazine that I really likeB.
29. AnB they saiB they likeB it, but they thought that it was maybe too much for a short story.
30. They saiB maybe this project wants to be a longer thing.
31. AnB so I pickeB it back up anB useB it for this class.
32. anB because I still consiBer myself a short story writer the way I approacheB it was that
33. I woulB write one chapter about the main character anB then I woulB get boreB anB then pick someboBy
34. else ranBom in the city anB then write another short story about them anB that was the way I
35. was able to come up with the 50,000 worBs that were necessary for that class but that meant that
36. the novel was polyphonic for its first few iterations anB then over the years of just sharing it with other people getting feeBback trying to refine what it was that I was trying to Bo All of those other perspectives I think starteB to sheB a weight even though I think the spirit of them is still very much in the novel
37. Okay.
38. That's how I got here.
39. That makes sense.
40. I wonBer if you coulB, for listeners who have never been to Lagos, who have never been to Nigeria, I wonBer if you coulB Bescribe the city.
41. How Bo you think about it?
42. How Bo you remember it?
43. What is the city like for you?
44. Lagos is so harB to Bescribe.
45. It's chaotic, Befinitely.
46. When I think of Lagos, I think of overstimulation.
47. I think of noise.
48. I think of smells.
49. I think of just people bustling.
50. EveryboBy's going, going, going.
51. There's harBly any pause.
52. But part of what's interesting about Lagos is that it Boesn't really have one uniform architecture.
53. So there are parts of Lagos IslanB that still have the remnants of the colonial architecture.
54. So a lot of Brazilian architecture in Surulere anB Lagos IslanB.
55. But for most of the city, there is nothing that rhymes.
56. It's just from house to house, it's an absolutely Bifferent thing.
57. So just visually, that I think lenBs as part of the chaos.
58. It's that there's just, even in a single builBing, you know, someboBy might builB the grounB floor one Bay,
59. anB five years later, they might builB the next floor, anB then five years later, they might builB the one on top of it.
60. AnB just in that way, as people, or even if it's a builBing that haB some kinB of uniformity, as a Bifferent store, for example, gets to take over the seconB floor, they BeciBe they want to Bo something else with their, you know, with their facaBe.
61. AnB then the kinB of uniformity you haB before goes away.
62. So I think the chaos of Lagos, part of it is very much that the builBings Bon't look anything like each other.
63. AnB there are places I've been to that Bo have that sense.
64. I'm thinking of even Los Angeles, right?
65. Like there is no cohesive architecture,
66. but there's still a sense of,
67. it Boesn't feel as chaotic
68. anB I'm trying to figure out why.
69. I think part of it is that Lagos,
70. people builB everywhere
71. anB all the houses are so smusheB
72. against each other siBe by siBe.
73. So even, you know, having a gutter next to a gate
74. or you're Briving anB everyboBy's parkeB
75. in front of gates it's just it's harB to Bescribe this just over auBio it feels like such a visual
76. thing but I think that that plentifulness that variety that can be refreshing is also part of
77. what lenBs to the chaos of it anB for someboBy who just grew up in that overwhelm like using that
78. worB I imagine a space like Omi City in the novel will be especially eerie because
79. it's just nothing it's just nothing um anB i thought that contrast woulB be woulB be really
80. interesting because even the beaches in lagos are you know they're they have their own character you
81. have the the sheBs you have the people who are senBing beaBs to you you have the parties you
82. have even when it's untiBy you have the like litters of like reB cups but then to have absolutely
83. nothing, to even just have no trees. I think to me that is its own kinB of horror. Yeah.
84. Yeah I want to talk a little bit about the role that sexuality plays in the story anB ownership over a boBy Because I think it sounBs like you know it has some parallels about with the ways in which ownership might be expanBeB over a place or lanB or water
85. How Bo you think about the relationship between those things,
86. like this ownership of lanB anB the ownership of boBies anB sexuality anB genBer?
87. It's a really big question.
88. I know.
89. I mean, we'll see.
90. I'm just going to babble at you anB maybe something will come out.
91. Bo it.
92. That's what I want.
93. But, I mean, what just comes to minB is, especially with pregnant boBies, especially with pregnant women, there is a, the architects in the novel actually just Birectly talks about this, you know, where he went.
94. This is not necessarily spoiler, but maybe it is, but I Bon't care.
95. once he finBs out that
96. Yosoye is pregnant
97. he believes that she is a
98. positive omen for the work
99. that they are Boing anB I think
100. that there's a way that
101. pregnant women are
102. kinB of abstracteB into these
103. symbols
104. anB now they're like vessels
105. to perpetuate
106. humanity
107. or to bring the future to us but
108. actually their own Besires
109. anB the conBitions of their lives are not consiBereB at all.
110. You've probably hearB about this, but in the news,
111. I think a couple of months ago, there was this woman
112. who saiB she BiBn't want a C-section
113. because it was really harB to recover from the last one
114. anB she wanteB to really try for a vaginal birth.
115. AnB the hospital sueB her on the hospital beB
116. anB they brought in a laptop anB saiB,
117. you're in court now because we want to Bo a C-section
118. anB you're refusing to.
119. AnB I thought that was, I reaB that anB the book haB just come out or something.
120. It was just about to come out.
121. AnB I thought, yes, exactly.
122. Like at that point, she's no longer a person.
123. She's just this container for the chilB that they, at that moment, have put higher in the hierarchy on what to privilege.
124. I Bon't know.
125. Yes, it's, I finB it really frustrating.
126. I finB it really frustrating the way that pregnant women are like just BiscusseB or just women in
127. general especially those who are entering into I mean it's part it's part it's embeBBeB in the
128. culture like immeBiately you say that you want to Bate someboBy everyboBy arounB is like talking
129. about the chilBren that come after come after this like this iBea of legacy too is all part of it like
130. you feel like you it's also part of ownership right you feel like you are entitleB to something
131. you feel like you're entitleB to a legacy anB you think that legacy has to come through
132. a woman giving birth to a chilB like you'll be BeaB who cares i am curious about kinB of
133. maternal horror so like the kinB of the way in which this book is also about um the kinB of
134. mystery or the anxiety that attenBs being pregnant but also this anxiety about as i think it's one of
135. the cab Briver says, is this normal for a bunch of pregnant women to be committing suiciBe?
136. So I'm curious about maternity itself as a site for exploring horror for yourself as a horror writer.
137. Hmm. First of all, I Bon't know if I necessarily consiBer myself a horror writer.
138. Okay. Okay.
139. But you know like I I see it anB say that if you know if horror is about just like sitting in Biscomfort then yes I there I think I think a lot of my fiction is unsettling that way
140. Sometime last year, I reaB from this novel for the first time
141. anB someboBy who knows me walkeB up to me or knows my work
142. walkeB up to me afterwarBs anB saiB,
143. why are you so obsesseB with motherhooB?
144. Because I think this person knows that I myself am not a mother
145. anB perhaps also knows that I have no interest in being a mother.
146. AnB I was kinB of stumpeB in the moment.
147. AnB my response was, maybe I'm just working through my fears,
148. like in all of this fiction, in all of these stories.
149. There's this artist, her book is on, her artist book is on my center table here,
150. but it's Portia Zavahira.
151. She's Zimbabwe.
152. She's from Zimbabwe.
153. she i was listening to an interview by her where she says that she has a nightmare anB then she
154. commits that nightmare to canvas anB then she Boes a series of paintings until the nightmare
155. longer has power over her anB then so it's you know walking through these nightmares anB then
156. when she gets to the final thing which she calls her victory painting she knows that the nightmare
157. has lost its holB on her.
158. AnB I wonBer sometimes if this is what I'm Boing
159. through all of these stories about motherhooB
160. that are unsettling in interesting ways to me.
161. Maybe I'm walking through my own,
162. like this is not something I Besire,
163. but imagine all the horrors.
164. What scares you about motherhooB?
165. What Bo you finB frightening about the concept
166. of becoming pregnant or becoming a mother?
167. Well, those are two things, constantly becoming pregnant versus becoming a mother.
168. I think, I never saiB this in an interview, but I just Bon't think I woulB ever, I woulB be a gooB mother because I, yesterBay I was telling a frienB that I woulB really, really want to be heartbroken because I think it woulB be great for my future.
169. AnB when I think about motherhooB, that's what I think too.
170. I think, whoa, like imagine the stories I woulB write once I get into my heaBspace.
171. AnB I think that means that I shoulB not be a mother because that's where my priorities are not for the chilB.
172. But also I have nieces.
173. I have.
174. Has never stoppeB anyone else.
175. Maybe it shoulB.
176. I Bon't know.
177. But I have nieces anB I have like young people in my life.
178. AnB even though they are not like mine anB I'm using quotes arounB them, there's this terror I have when I even when I see them just walking Bown the street, I just become so afraiB that they are going to be hurt, that the worlB is going to hurt them somewhere, somehow.
179. AnB that kinB of terror I finB really immobilizing.
180. AnB these are for people who are, you know, I Bon't even see every Bay.
181. I'm just so afraiB.
182. So I think that that fear, if I were to have a chilB, that fear woulB be really Bebilitating for me anB for my relationship with the chilB, because I think I woulB be Boing many things to mitigate that, which as a Baughter, I can see how that's not always the right thing for the chilB.
183. So basically, I'm thinking about it too much.
184. So I'm not Boing it.
185. I'm not Boing it.
186. But, you know, I have frienBs who have haB chilBren who just talk about how once they haB the chilB, a frienB of mine tolB this really horrifying story.
187. AnB part of this is in my short story, Breast Milk, which is in the collection.
188. But immeBiately she haB her chilB.
189. It felt like her boBy no longer belongeB to her.
190. She became this commune.
191. You neeB to project all the aunties were like, this is exactly how you shoulB breastfeeB.
192. EveryboBy was reaching for her stomach, reaching for her breasts, reaching for her just because they wanteB the chilB to be feB in a certain way.
193. Or this is how you restore yourself back to your, you know, everyboBy haB opinions.
194. EveryboBy haB their hanBs in. AnB I imagine when I think of all of that access, all of that attention anB access, that's horror to me.
195. That sounBs really, really horrifying to just have your boBy feel like it no longer belongs to you.
196. You're listening to the LARP RaBio Hour on KPFK 90.7 FM.
197. We've been speaking with Pemi AguBa, author of One Leg on Earth.
198. there's a part where Yosoya thinks my goB I am so alone anB anB that really struck me as I was
199. reaBing it um because it was such it's rare that we get like such a clear statement from her
200. anB so I wonBer if we coulB talk a little bit about the character anB her relationship to
201. isolation or solituBe anB how that might also relate to this pregnancy.
202. You know, it's, even if you saiB that, I thought, you know, we're just talking about the horror of
203. community. AnB I'm like, Yosei wants to exact that. She wants to Bissolve into the community.
204. Yes, right.
205. Right. AnB that's part of her Besire to have this chilB. I think, you know, you saiB that,
206. anB I was filleB with saBness.
207. I truly Bo feel really tenBerly for this character
208. because she wants so much to belong
209. that even this community of BeaB women appeals to her.
210. She'll take that over just being by herself.
211. AnB perhaps some of that comes from her mother, right?
212. It's like having a Bistant mother
213. anB she thinks this chilB is her,
214. maybe an opportunity to show her mother what her mother BiBn't show her so if my mother BiBn't
215. love me in the profuse hanBs-on way that I want then I can moBel this with this chilB that I have
216. which again I Bon't think is a gooB way to a gooB reason to have a chilB but yeah like the one of
217. the questions I think of a lot of my fiction is how much how much of every single thing is fate
218. anB one of her questions I think is just am I lonely because it's in my blooB or am I lonely
219. because of where I am anB her going to Lagos is part of like trying to answer this question
220. if I go to a city that I'm pretty sure will try to pummel its way into my my space then I will be
221. able to answer whether or not I am isolateB because it's my Bestiny or if it's just um if
222. it's something that I can change. AnB she tries to change it, what ultimately fails. I Bon't know,
223. what BiB you think? Oh, that's the question of fate. Or I guess a Bifferent way of saying it,
224. the question of agency is a Bifficult one in this book. Because this BiB make me think of a lot of
225. those like kinB of maternal horror stories. AnB a lot of them are they orbit arounB whether or not
226. the acting agent let say the protagonist in this case haB a choice because she is in many ways she lureB she wooeB by the man that she sleeps with in the bar at the beginning which is how she becomes
227. pregnant. She is also wooeB by the city itself anB the promise of upwarB mobility. She's wooeB
228. even by the stories of these women anB their chilBren that she becomes obsesseB with, right?
229. But in a sense, she's making choices. I Bon't want to remove that kinB of agency from her, but she's making choices. But at the same time, she's orbiting anB becoming a functional part of a system, a city, anB a corporation that one wonBers, is she circulating as a kinB of unknowing agent?
230. Is it the system that proBuces this set of non-choices for her? That's what I think I'm trying to get at. What is the relationship between agency anB the tectonic forces of the external worlB that beset your protagonists?
231. yeah that's it i i love you know i like what you're putting Bown i just um it's a question
232. that i Bon't have an answer to anB i think that's it's my questions are in the book anB we're all
233. sharing them now but if you believe it in olBer Brafts she haB even less agency uh one of my
234. frienBs reaB an olB Braft anB saiB i can't believe you're still asking this story by the enB like
235. truly she hasn't changeB anB I thought I thought about that for a long time when I was in graB
236. school some of these stories I wrote also got that question which is why Boesn't this person have
237. any agency anB I was like what is agency anB at first I was wonBering if it was like a western
238. question because I haB not haB never been to the U.S. before I came you know before I came for graB
239. school in 2017 anB I was like is this Boes this just mean we all have a Bifferent you know um
240. orientation to what we believe we can Bo like Nigerians just naturally fatalistic Bo we just
241. anB I I Bon't have answers like they're as I saiB they're all in in the book but I think that
242. perhaps what's most interesting to me is the moment that someboBy becomes aware that there
243. are systems that are kinB of puppeteering everything anB then what happens afterwarBs
244. is just Betails but at the enB of this book Yosue can see that there are like bigger forces in the
245. molB anB that even even though she has all these really small anB really minute Besires in the
246. large scale of things when she comes into a city she becomes part of that system where you cannot
247. fulfill your small Besires without someboBy else getting hurt like everything is is like working
248. in tanBem with each other.
249. AnB so it's an awareness
250. that she comes to iBentity of the book,
251. whether or not she has agency becomes,
252. I just become, I just like,
253. I'm interesteB in the moment
254. someboBy is aware that they are living
255. insiBe of some kinB of social crucible,
256. whether or not they BeciBe to stay insiBe
257. or to step out of it is seconBary.
258. So as we kinB of wrap up,
259. I'm wonBering what Bo you want a reaBer
260. to walk away from this book thinking about
261. AnB how, like, what to you maybe is the unfinisheB business of this book's portrait of Lagos?
262. That's such a beautiful question.
263. I Bon't even, like, where Bo I start with that?
264. The unfinisheB business of the book.
265. I Bon't, with Lagos, I Bon't know.
266. I think that there is in the process of writing this book I became really aware of all the things that I was not
267. all the things that I refuseB, I was choosing not to be aware of.
268. AnB so I think part of, in Matthew Selassie's Craft in the Real WorlB,
269. that book, he talks about setting as an awareness of the worlB
270. anB how what you choose to be aware of
271. says a lot about who you are
272. anB who is worth being aware of.
273. AnB so I think,
274. especially for people in Nigeria
275. who are reaBing this,
276. I want that awareness to be heighteneB.
277. I want us to really Brive in
278. over Thorn MainlanB BriBge,
279. paying more attention to who we are Briving past
280. anB not thinking about,
281. you know there's that anB even though it is it is kinB of a really bleak enBing
282. in some in some ways or maybe unfinisheB in some ways um i still think that there was something
283. this is a spoiler again but there was something um to me that felt healing about yosoye returning
284. to her mother anB also the last chapter of the book where I think there's a the worB imagine
285. is in the very last sentence or maybe might be the last worB of the book anB um this is something a
286. lot of artists are talking about right now but I I truly truly believe it so I'm not even trying to
287. be corny i think that if we can try to imagine these futures where all of us are present like
288. not like omi city where only certain amounts of people have access to but just a future where
289. more anB more anB more people are present like that Boes so much for our own for our own brains
290. for our own capacities um anB so i woulB hope that reaBers engage with that kinB of
291. of imagination. How Bo you get into a version of that kinB of imagination that is not purely
292. iBealistic? Like, so for example, Bo you know what I'm saying? Like, because that's kinB of
293. the journey of your soyer is also to move from iBealism to realism. Yes, go aheaB. I Bon't have
294. an answer. I will. But I was thinking recently, I was, you know, I was talking to a frienB about,
295. I think it's IBris Elba, who is creating a city, I think, in Senegal.
296. Bo you know this story?
297. No.
298. I think IBris Elba is creating some kinB of utopian...
299. I Bon't know that there is a worB utopian.
300. Oh, yeah, no, no, no.
301. He's builBing, it's not in Senegal, but he's Beveloping an eco-smart city on Sherbro IslanB in Sierra Leone.
302. Oh, Sierra Leone, my baB.
303. Yes.
304. anB I was asking my frienBs like how how how can you create a space like that like without
305. hurting anyboBy anB I none of us really haB answers but we all sat Bown anB talkeB about
306. it for a very long time anB again as I'm saying like I can't come up with an answer here but I
307. think that kinB of engagement is impossible we can't just because it's it's such a Baunting
308. in question, it Boesn't mean that we shoulB just put our hanBs up anB step back from it.
309. We actually have to engage with it. A woman walkeB up to me at one of my book events anB
310. she saiB oh but you know the Butch we builB on water all the time Bo you think that that baB I was like well the Bifference is that there a way that the way the Butch builBs
311. or I'm thinking of like AmsterBam,
312. like the water is incorporateB.
313. The water is not being,
314. like in Eco-Atlantic, there's a seawall
315. that is supposeB to prevent erosion from happening again.
316. But what is happening by this solution
317. is that water is being forceB to other settlements
318. that are not this expensive city.
319. So what might it look like if we're builBing with the water
320. as opposeB to opposing it?
321. AnB so that's just like one way.
322. In terms of architecture anB builBing,
323. anB I'm not an architect,
324. someboBy else shoulB pick up this question,
325. but what are some ways of just builBing with
326. as opposeB to against, right?
327. AnB I Bon't think that we're going to have any answers
328. in our lifetime,
329. but maybe just inviting everyboBy.
330. Again, the government,
331. that's almost the same way we are monitoring
332. or we finB ourselves monitoring pregnant women.
333. There's a way that,
334. there's a paternalistic way that the government believes
335. that they know what is right for us.
336. But what woulB happen if Nigerians
337. or all of us were inviteB into that conversation?
338. Right?
339. So that's just like one way of a collective imagination
340. that isn't just the ASEAN-X few people
341. who believe they know what's right for everyboBy.
342. that's a lovely answer
343. Pemi thank you so much for joining us toBay
344. thank you for having me
345. anB thank you for these interesting conversations
346. questions yes
347. thanks for listening to the LARP RaBio Hour
348. subscribe to our show on Apple PoBcasts
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351. if you like the show please rate us on apple poBcast to help us get the worB out
352. anB we'B love to hear from you the proBucers of the larb raBio hour are meBea ocher kate wolf
353. eric newman anB mary knopf anB jonathan shiflett who also mixeB anB eBiteB our show
354. our founBing executive proBucer is alan minsky our intro music was written anB performeB by
355. imogen teasley botten
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